Hey all! I am starting a new game with a few players who just tried out vanilla classes and want to try out archetype selection.
I was thinking of putting forward a list of 3 or 5 archetype combinations for them to try out, depending on which class they pick. For example, if someone wants to go Rogue, Knife Master/Scout would be a combination that would be available, or for Rangers Guide/Skirmisher.
And here's the snag - animal companions are disallowed. Mounts (since they share a round with their rider) and familiars (sharing actions with their masters in this game) are allowed.
For Wizards, arcane schools replace available archetypes. I'd need to figure out opposition schools that come along with them.
Sorcerer archetypes are probably too obscure for them to figure out yet. I'd rather list a few cool bloodlines.
Same applies for Domains.
How would you make this list, for each class?
Are Animal Companions as Mounts disallowed? Camel, Horse, Pony, Dire Bat for Druid?
Might want to offer the Trapper archetype for Rangers in case your group wants a trap expert but no one wants to play a rogue. Urban Ranger would be another option, but doesn't get Trapfinding (ability to deal with magical traps) until 3rd level.
As for how to make the list, figure out which archetypes fit into your game and are different enough to interest your players. Cross off any archetypes you find too confusing or don't like. Then look at the whole list and crop it to remove duplication.
I'd rather fit the game to the archetypes than the other way around! If lots of my player
For Rangers, I was thinking Trapper, Guide, Freebooter, Witchguard and Divine Tracker, with an option for Skirmisher.
Cool, those are pretty much the ones I was going to offer, plus Pit-Born. Not sure if Rakshasa over Shadow though.
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I found Shadow plenty interesting, but I have a weakness for the Rakshasa line. I play socialites, and I loved the bluff bonus on Rashasa.
However, Shadow could work too. The Magic in the Blood guide rated Shadow pretty highly.
Lying deceitful shapeshifters or Sneaky skulking shadows.... They're both pretty awesome. You're the GM. Pick the one you like best!
Hmm
BOTH.
Now I'm missing archetypes for... a ton of other classes.
I'm particularly in the dark about Paladins, Clerics, Druids and Monks, which I haven't used extensively to know which archetypes are flavorful, powerful and interesting.
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So, here are the corebook classes. More to follow.
Barbarian: Invulnerable Rager, Invulnerable Rager + Urban Barbarian, Invulnerable Rager + Drunken Brute, Mad Dog,
Bard: Archaeologist, Dawnflower Dervish, Thundercaller, Court Bard, Archivist,
Cleric: Go with Gods rather than Archetypes. Seems simpler and there aren't a lot of Archetypes anyway.
Druid: Urban Druid, Animal Shamans or Terrain Druids of various sorts,
Fighter: Lore Warden + Martial Master (All the maneuvers forever), Mutation Warrior (by itself, probably), Archer, Two-Handed Fighter.
Monk: Qinggong + Tetori, Qinggong + Flowing Monk, Qinggong + Sohei, Qinggong + Sensei, Martial Artist,
Paladin: Oath of Vengeance + Divine Hunter, Oath of Vengeance, Warrior of the Holy Light, Hospitaler, Sacred Servant,
Ranger: Guide + Infiltrator, Trapper, Divine Tracker, Urban Ranger, Shapeshifter,
Rogue: Knife Master + Scout, Ninja + Scout, Rake + Sanctified Rogue, Trapsmith + Underground Chemist,
Sorcerer: Bloodlines, like you said.
Wizard: You might want to consider Thassilonian Specialist, that's basically School specialization taken up to 11 with pre-set opposition schools.
Qinggong is a must have for the Monk; the swaps are optional so it stacks with everything.
Other notable archetypes:
Hungry Ghost: Very reliable method of regenerating ki. Makes the ki powers from Qinggong shine brightly.
Martial Artist: The exception to "always take Qinggong". You don't get a ki pool at all so you can't use it; instead, you get the ability to completely bypass enemy DR.
Sensei: Gets Inspire Courage and wis-to-hit. If you start with a level in Nature Oracle and take Noble Scion (War) you are entirely wisdom/charisma based. I'm playing one of these right now and loving it.
Sohei: Probably the strongest damage dealer of the Monks. Flurry in armor (and therefore brawling armor) is great, and the initiative boost is even better. If all you want to do is punch things really hard, Sohei is your choice.
Tetori: Spellcasters HATE him!!! Local monk finds secret to grappling everything and not worrying about freedom of movement.
Zen Archer: Barely even a Monk, but it is one of the most powerful DPR classes in the game.
Underfoot Adept: If you want to trip things, there is no alternative. The effective size increases ensure that your trip maneuvers stay relevant throughout the game. It's a Halfling archetype but getting in as a Human with the Racial Heritage feat is much better.
I like Monks
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Clerics are fun, and have lots of different ways they can go. When you talk about limiting domains, are you talking about limiting gods too? In the Pathfinder world, each domain is tied to a limited number of gods.
My favorite domains are luck, travel, and liberation but you probably want more variation in your choices.
I also enjoyed looking into Oracles, which are kind of like the sorcerers of the divine world. Oracles have mysteries that they run off, and awesome curses they have to deal with. (Is it odd that the curses are what appeal to me most about Oracles?)
If I was to pick a handful of Oracle Mysteries, I'd go with these:
* Battle and/or Ancestor -- for melee
* Nature -- They get a bonded mount like paladins do!
* Dark Tapestry -- Slightly creepy with cool wings and other powers
* Life -- Better for NPCs, or as a 1 level dip for Paladins who like to heal
* Stone -- It's different and some of the powers are crazy cool.
Thank you all for the suggestions! Keep 'em coming!
Monk: Qinggong + Tetori, Qinggong + Flowing Monk, Qinggong + Sohei, Qinggong + Sensei, Martial Artist,Ranger: Guide + Infiltrator, Trapper, Divine Tracker, Urban Ranger, Shapeshifter,
Rogue: Knife Master + Scout, Ninja + Scout, Rake + Sanctified Rogue, Trapsmith + Underground Chemist,
Qinggong is going to be a baseline feature for Monks - you can trade stuff out for powers.
I don't think Guide works with Infiltrator, does it? You don't really have Favored Enemy. I know Ranger's Focus is a pseudo-FE, but there is nothing by RAW that states as much, and it doesn't make much sense from a flavor standpoint either. I'd let the Master Hunter thing slide, but I don't think level 20 is going to be part of the equation anyhow.
Also, I think Rake + Sanctified Rogue is outshone by the Sczarni Swindler, which has a similar package but more power (scaling bonus to Will, rerolls, etc.)
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Fighter: Martial Master + Mutagen Warrior
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Qinggong is going to be a baseline feature for Monks - you can trade stuff out for powers.
That seems very reasonable. Those recommendations (plus Zen Archer if willing to go t 6 Archetypes) still stand, though. All are effective on their own, and make very different kinds of Monk.
I don't think Guide works with Infiltrator, does it? You don't really have Favored Enemy. I know Ranger's Focus is a pseudo-FE, but there is nothing by RAW that states as much, and it doesn't make much sense from a flavor standpoint either. I'd let the Master Hunter thing slide, but I don't think level 20 is going to be part of the equation anyhow.
You're right, I totally didn't read the new features closely enough on that one. Either or both on their own are still good choices, though.
Also, I think Rake + Sanctified Rogue is outshone by the Sczarni Swindler, which has a similar package but more power (scaling bonus to Will, rerolls, etc.)
You're probably right here too. Sczarni Swindler is pretty awesome as Rogue Archetypes go.
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For rogues, you may want to offer them slayer and its archetypes instead. Slayer has some awesome options, and can do so much more in combat.
As for what Bacon666 said:
Let your Players choose.
May I offer a happy medium? You offer a suggested list of GM preferred options and a banned list of "No Animal Companions" (which would make my tiger trainer cry... but that's a different story) and tell players that if they don't find something they like off the preferred list, they're welcome to do their own research and come back to you with an option for approval.
Hmm
Just add the advanced players guide; Logic next step.
Could I get some good recommendations for Oracle Mysteries, Domains and Inquisitions? Also, do you think I should make some Inquisitor archetypes available? They always seemed a bit lackluster to me except for the Sanctified Slayer.
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Could I get some good recommendations for Oracle Mysteries, Domains and Inquisitions? Also, do you think I should make some Inquisitor archetypes available? They always seemed a bit lackluster to me except for the Sanctified Slayer.
I'll try and throw out some Domain and Mystery stuff later.
As for Inquisitor Archetypes, I'd strongly recommend Preacher. Not everyone wants to deal with Teamwork Feats, after all.
Could I get some good recommendations for Oracle Mysteries, Domains and Inquisitions? Also, do you think I should make some Inquisitor archetypes available? They always seemed a bit lackluster to me except for the Sanctified Slayer.
Rage Subdomain! Grants rage and rage powers!
Heroism Subdomain is an awesome one for face clerics and GREAT buffs!
Guess I'm going with Preacher, Infiltrator and Sanctified Slayer for Inquisitors! Rage, Heroism sound good, what else?
I'd need 3 or 4 good domains for Druids too, since I'm not allowing the choice for an animal companion.
Guess I'm going with Preacher, Infiltrator and Sanctified Slayer for Inquisitors! Rage, Heroism sound good, what else?
I'd need 3 or 4 good domains for Druids too, since I'm not allowing the choice for an animal companion.
Air and Water have really good domain spells for druids.
Back to the Cleric side,
Luck, Travel, and Liberation are awesome Domains with fantastic domain powers. Madness has an absolutely insane ability. I'm a fan of the Ferocity subdomain if you dislike the Rage subdomain.
Also the Good domain is an extremely solid domain choice for most campaigns.
They are not likely to have the time to research, and I'd rather lay out their options so they can pick easier.
Evolutionist is my preferred archetype for summoner. It is no animal companion. As evidenced by the archetype I dont recommend because it fits the description of 'no additional action economy' called the synthesist...
Then again I don't know anyone who'd prefer to see a synthesist in their campaign above an evolutionist...
Then again I'm not sure what the nature of the 'snag' is about having a pet. If its an aversion to action economy a synthesist summoner definitely fits the bill. Just be careful what you wish for. Master summoner may not have 'pets' but can fill the field with beasties all the same. Conjuration wizards and sorcerers have similar potential action economy 'snagabilitah'
If the 'snag' is about action economy, then saying 'no animal companions' still leaves a LOT of room for 'snags' simply by continuing to allow any caster with access to summon spells without even getting in to archetypes. Knowing that... Curious what the nature of the 'snag' is.
Hey, it's fine if you love them. It's just gonna be too many players and I want to keep the flow of the game going steady and everyone having once chance to act. Not enough emphasis is done in this game about the action economy.
No summoning spells will be allowed. Druids will have their Spontaneous Casting feature replaced - probably by Augury over Summon Nature's Ally, and so on and so forth.
Once they played a few games and catch on to how it works, I'm sure they'd like an expanded ruleset.
Well, the Synthesist has the distinct advantage of being totally rad over the regular Summoner. The whole concept is really cool. Personally I'd love to play a Synthesist that doesn't have spellcasting at all and instead gets a large expansion in evolution points...
Yeah, I'm honestly considering putting it forward as an option.
why not just let them pick? its not like pathfinder is that hard of a concept to grasp.
*Looks at EsperMagic's post*
*Looks down at the stack of rulebooks for the game, each of which are an inch or more thick*
*Looks back up at EsperMagic's post*
Yeah. Dead simple, this game.