Ragnar Lothbrok from Vikings.


Conversions


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Trying to build with a 20 pt buy, using the Viking Archtype.

I'm having fun with it making a 2 weapon fighter (using improved shield bash), but the ability scores are giving me trouble. Any suggestions?

Liberty's Edge

I'd probably go:

Str 16
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 8

It may not seem that impressive, but when you thinkabout the fact that most people top out at 13 before racial, then you see he's pretty tough. I might even trade my feat in for another bonus somewhere. (Racial is already in str, con maybe?)


CHA should not be the dump stat.

He is a slayer.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

yeah i'd say the stats shown are more like his brother...

Lothbrok probably had high charisma and intelligence, and maybe high dex with weapon finesse since vikings tend to like to run around without armor. he was mostly average (or slightly above) in the physical department for people of that day and age, and leveraged most of his power through leadership.


He also doesn't use a shield very often. two axes are much more common for him.


Are we talking Lothbrok from the TV series or the historical figure?

TV series wise he's VERY charismatic.
I wouldn't call him "intelligent" but perhaps wise/clever.

He's certainly not a brute.

But eh, in the TV series he uses a shield ALOT (he's constantly teaching the men to use the shield wall to their advantage)… FLOKI is the two weapon fighter.

I would say:
STR 14
DEX 13
CON 15
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 14

Historically ( I know someone who's actually a direct descendent of him), reading about him,
I'd say:
Str 13
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 14

The Real Ragnar Lodbrok fought most commonly with axe and spear (metal was scarce) and wore a cuir boilli armor similar to Lamllar Leather armor.
Ragnar became fond of the broadsword and mail after striping the bodies of enemies.
But he always fought with a shield.

I wouldn't say by any stretch of the imagination, TV series or History, would he be a two weapon fighter.

The shield bash can happen in a completely separate round of combat from the axe strike, just because he is seen using both, doesn't mean he's mechanically getting extra attacks from the fighting style.


I agree that he is not particularly intelligent (I would say he's rocking a 10), but his wisdom is pretty decent (12-14), and his charisma is good (14-16). For physical stats I could see him having 14's across the board. I like the TWF with shield bash concept you are using.

Liberty's Edge

You all realize that he constantly rubs people the wrong way, enough so that they are constantly trying to kill him?

And low intelligence? The guy who figured out that the west didn't drop off a cliff, and who spent his time learning a second language because he had the knowledge and forsight that it might be useful has low intelligence?

As to him being a slayer, that's out of bounds, O.P. specifically said Viking, which fits.


ShadowcatX wrote:
You all realize that he constantly rubs people the wrong way, enough so that they are constantly trying to kill him?

High Charisma does not mean people like you, it means that you form stronger bonds with people who do like you.

I am finding it really hard to think of any charismatic leader without enemies.


His ambition isnt backed or driven by a superior intellect or pure logic. It was faith that sent him west.

And anyone, even a guy with a 10 Int, can put a point into Linguistics to learn a new language.

I dont want you to think I was trying to say that he is stupid or unintelligent, hes not. What I am saying though is that his mental scores go in the order of Int<Wis<Cha.

Regarding charisma, I dislike Obama, but even I will admit that the man is charismatic. Ragnar rubs people the wrong way because he is a radical, because he upsets the status quo.

Liberty's Edge

Secret Wizard wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
You all realize that he constantly rubs people the wrong way, enough so that they are constantly trying to kill him?

High Charisma does not mean people like you, it means that you form stronger bonds with people who do like you.

I am finding it really hard to think of any charismatic leader without enemies.

I'm not sure I agree with your definition of high charisma, but even by your definition let me say:

Spoiler:
Like his wife who left him or his kid who went with his wife? Or his brother who betrayed him?

Liberty's Edge

Gambit wrote:

His ambition isnt backed or driven by a superior intellect or pure logic. It was faith that sent him west.

And anyone, even a guy with a 10 Int, can put a point into Linguistics to learn a new language.

I dont want you to think I was trying to say that he is stupid or unintelligent, hes not. What I am saying though is that his mental scores go in the order of Int<Wis<Cha.

Regarding charisma, I dislike Obama, but even I will admit that the man is charismatic. Ragnar rubs people the wrong way because he is a radical, because he upsets the status quo.

Lots of people in the show have faith, but no one saw what Ragnar did. Beyond that, it wasn't faith that got him across the sea these several times, nor faith that planned the successful raids. I hope you're not trying to say he can't be smart because he has faith.

And yes, anyone can put a point into linguistics, but you should notice nobody else actually did but Ragnar, again, foresight and planning, halmarks of intelligence.

Ragnar doesn't really upset the status quo, going west was a biggie, for sure, but after that he's done mostly what was expected of him. Not like being ambitious was considered heretical or anything.

Liberty's Edge

Tried to update my post above, but was 1 minute too late pushing submit and lost everything. :(

As to skills Rragnar would have profession farmer (because he is, you know, a farmer), probably profession sailor as well, knowledge of religion, geography, local, and maybe tactics, diplomacy, sense motive, perception, and of course, linguistics.

Compare that to the skills of the average person in his group / tribe / whatever. He is significantly more knowledgable and more skilled. Hence, above average intelligence. If anything, I might have shorted him on intelligence, maybe that is where his second racial bonus should go if you go that route.

As to charisma, people aren't following him because they love him, he doesn't make speeches that make their hearts break out in song. They follow him because he is what they want in a leader and he brings them wealth.

Spoiler:
Compare that to Lagartha, who after she murdered her husband in front of his people they put her, a woman and an outsider, up as their earl rather than some man from among their own. That is charisma. Ragnar doesn't have that.

As to his brother's stats, I'd dump wisdom, drop intelligence, to raise his strength and con higher, and definitely put the second racial bonus in a physical stat.


ShadowcatX wrote:

You all realize that he constantly rubs people the wrong way, enough so that they are constantly trying to kill him?

And low intelligence? The guy who figured out that the west didn't drop off a cliff, and who spent his time learning a second language because he had the knowledge and forsight that it might be useful has low intelligence?

As to him being a slayer, that's out of bounds, O.P. specifically said Viking, which fits.

Originally, In 1E hitler was given in the description of 'Charisma' as having an 18. PLENTY of people not liking hitler and trying to kill him.

One can learn a language without having a high intelligence.

Ragnar did know, or study or learn that there was a west anything.
He went on gut instinct, the willingness to take a chance, and spirit of adventure (charisma)
The compass thing was an invention of the TV show and wasn't used by the original viking explorers. Who navigated on instinct, luck and a whole lot of hope.

Setting out, while testing the new boat, Floki himself doubted what he would made would even work, apologizing to ragnar for wasting his money to try and even build it.
This isn't highly intelligent people,
These are people who took a chance on an idea.

Extremely superstitious thinking that their god was angry with them if they failed and favored them if they succeeded. They even doubted there WAS another side to the world, until they accidentally found land.

Where's this education and intelligence of having known there was a west?

It was a complete gamble/gut feeling and also based on rumor from others who had done it long ago.
The fact that no one had actually returned is largely based on WHY return? where they had gone was better than where they came from, so they had stayed.

If anything, I would argue that Ragnar would be best built as a rage prophet, with either oracle or lore or oracle of nature, begin that he was led by faith, gut instinct and why he believed, was divination.

Int he TV series, Ragnar and Floki are particularly religious. Ragnars brother, much more strictly barbarian/warrior.

Liberty's Edge

Pendagast wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:

You all realize that he constantly rubs people the wrong way, enough so that they are constantly trying to kill him?

And low intelligence? The guy who figured out that the west didn't drop off a cliff, and who spent his time learning a second language because he had the knowledge and forsight that it might be useful has low intelligence?

As to him being a slayer, that's out of bounds, O.P. specifically said Viking, which fits.

Originally, In 1E hitler was given in the description of 'Charisma' as having an 18. PLENTY of people not liking hitler and trying to kill him.

/sigh. Ok. Hitler could motivate people by speaking to them. He could rally them to his cause against their better judgment and well, they were happy to kill for him (less happy to die for him, I suspect, but they still did it and did it in droves). The people aren't fighting and dying for Ragnar the majority of the time, they're fighting to amass wealth. Do you see the difference?

Quote:

One can learn a language without having a high intelligence.

Ragnar did know, or study or learn that there was a west anything.
He went on gut instinct, the willingness to take a chance, and spirit of adventure (charisma)

Ok, first off, go actually read the definition of Charisma, because "gut instinct, the willingness to take a chance, and spirit of adventure" is not even remotely close to it.

Second, one does not need to study and learn to have a high intelligence. Education and intelligence are not the same thing, heck they barely even live in the same house.

Quote:
The compass thing was an invention of the TV show and wasn't used by the original viking explorers. Who navigated on instinct, luck and a whole lot of hope.

What's your point? It doesn't matter that the TV show isn't 100% accurate, we were requested to build the guy off the TV show. In the TV show he is smart.

Quote:
It was a complete gamble/gut feeling and also based on rumor from others who had done it long ago.

So from studying history? Oh look, another skill point I missed. Thank you. Yet another reason for him to have a high intelligence.


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strength 16: He's a warrior, first and foremost. He's not the giant bear-smasher that he brother Rollo is, but he's hardly weak and is depicted as above average.

Dexterity 14: he's a fairly agile fighter who uses light and medium armor and favpors the ability to move around the battlefield. he's also depicted as a pretty good archer. This puts him below the limit for TWF, but TWF is sub-optimal anyway - and hte show seriously over-uses it, people twirling around with axes like dummies.

Stamina 14: Ragnar's a tough dude... But he's not the toughest dude. he's shown as somewhat smaller, and lighter-built than others in his warband (though larger than the English). He's also taken some grevious wounds, and isn't exactly a young man (he's in his late 30's by the end of season 2, assuming bjorn is 17 or older - this isn't old age, but by the period standards, he's not a young'un)

Intelligence 10: Ragnar's not stupid. But he is a guy who thinks yelling "shield wall!" is a solution for every battlefield event EXCPET a rain of arrows. So, uh... yeah. This would be lower, except he shows some aptitude with assorted skills, and has an okay time grasping new concepts and ways of doing things.

Wisdom 14: Here's why people think Ragnar is really smart - he has a quite strong Wisdom for a fighter... and has invested skills and traits into Sense motive and Perception. The dude is a hawk in interpersonal relationships, is able to plan around other people, and enjoys poking them around to learn what they do.

Charisma 10: Travis Fimmel is a charming guy. The character he's portraying is a self-centered jerk. The two bleed togehter becuase, well, that's what happens. But there is nothing in Ragnar's character that makes him especially charming. Ragnar has followers not because people admire and like him - even his friends and family think he's a jerk - but because associating with Ragnar is a good way to get rich. Bjorn and Lagertha have charisma scores. Ragnar does not.


I would not put so much intelligence to this guy, he is average a 10 is appropiate, other vikings would have less than 10. in Wisdom he would have more, like a 14...and in Charisma he would also be standard, he is not that extremely charismatic, he's just a normal viking with gold and status, well he's not that average also, so would be a 12 in Cha.


based on the TV show, no… several people are NOT simply following Ragnar only for wealth.

Rangar being a "jerk" is a bit off center, the whole "rift" between floki and ragnar was an act to lure in King Horik, and it worked.

and technically, according to legend, Ragnar was 'seduced' by Aslaug… something the Tv show sort of…poorly portrayed… they just made him look like a horny cheater.
Aslaug is supposed to be an enchantress, but the TV series is going "low magic" like game of thrones.

People with higher than normal charisma are good and identifying what motivates people… vikings are poor and slightly greedy, Ragnar motives them with that, from episode one.

Ragnar cares less about wealth and more about fame (famous people also tend to be high Cha types)

In the Real world, Ragnar is also one of the most famous of viking legends who historians/sociologists almost unilaterally agree, actually existed… so much so, they made a TV show about him well over 1000 years later (Id say that makes him pretty famous)

He's High Charisma.


Thank you all!

Liberty's Edge

Sorry for the late response, didn't notice any replies after my last post until now.

Pendagast wrote:
based on the TV show, no… several people are NOT simply following Ragnar only for wealth.

If Ragnar said "I'm going to raid the west, but we're not going to bring back any wealth or slaves and we're not going to try and gain any land over there" do you think they'd go with him? The whole point of raiding (what Ragnar does) is to gain wealth. That's why he went west in the first place, more wealth and less defended.

Quote:
Rangar being a "jerk" is a bit off center, the whole "rift" between floki and ragnar was an act to lure in King Horik, and it worked.

I know. That was very intelligent of him, don't you think? If only the rift between him and his brother, and him and his wife, were equally imaginary. Pretty low charisma if the 2 people you're closest to both turn their backs on you at some point because you're a jerk. . .

Quote:

and technically, according to legend, Ragnar was 'seduced' by Aslaug… something the Tv show sort of…poorly portrayed… they just made him look like a horny cheater.

Aslaug is supposed to be an enchantress, but the TV series is going "low magic" like game of thrones.

Again, doesn't matter, we're basing it on the tv show.


the king horik plot was more masterminded by floki than Ragnar.

The Rift between Ragnar and his brother was forged by Rollo himself, through greed and lust, and betrayal.

The rift between Ragnar and his first wife was deliberately engineered by Aslaug, who regardless of legend or TV show is still a magical enchantress, they simply don't portray her as weaving any spells in the TV show, but it's obvious she is if you actually listen to the shows dialog.

Ragnar was more popular with the people than the pervious earl before Floki even made the first ship.

There;s more brains in floki than there is in Ragnars entire Earldom combined, But floki isn't a very popular fellow.

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