can you sneak attack a sword?


Rules Questions


Here's the setup

a) a rogue two-weapon-wielding an aldori dueling sword and a swordbreaker dagger steps up to a bad guy with a sword.
b) the rogue knows what she's doing, and executes a Two-Weapon Feint on the bad guy using the dueling sword (and a cloak). The bad guy is now going to take a sneak attack from the swordbreaker dagger
c) the rogue tries to sunder the bad guy's sword

1. The bad guy is denied his Dex to AC. Can he take an AoO if the rogue does not have Improved Sunder?
2. The rogue can deal sneak attack damage to the bad guy. Can she also deal sneak attack damage to his sword as well?


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The sword is an object, and is therefore immune to precision damage (such as sneak attacks).


DM call, I would say yes it works. As objects has and should have weak points also this is the whole point of Martial artist monks archetype find weakness ability that allows them to ignore DR and hardness of objects.

Damaging object rules state they are only immune to.
Immunities
Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Precision damage is not listed

Now Precision Damage says

Precision Damage: Precision damage is a special type of damage, which might more appropriately be called a "category" of damage because any of the other damage types listed here might also be considered "precision" damage under the right circumstances. Precision damage is usually dealt by classes like the rogue when he is able to catch an opponent unable to fully protect itself. Precision damage assumes that the target has a somewhat normal anatomy or at least has a physical form which might have weak spots which could be detected or taken advantage of. Previous editions of the game (prior to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game) limited what sorts of creatures are vulnerable to precision damage more than the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game does. This was a deliberate change to make a key class feature of classes like the rogue more frequently usable. Attacks which affect areas (such as splash weapons) usually do not deal precision damage.

So it is up to DM to determine if object has a weak point. This is why you can sneak attack undead and constructions now. unlike before in 3.5 as they had no anatomy or weak point. This reduced only elemental, incorporeal creatures and ooze to out right immunity.

Lantern Lodge

Hope this helps, and I could be wrong, but I'm sure others will pipe up...

1. You didn't mention having improved sunder (and imply you don't), so you trigger an attack of opportunity when you attempt to sunder your opponent's sword. If they hit, you take the damage as a negative to your sunder attempt (a full BAB martial can do ALOT of damage). Note that a target can AOO when denied DEX (you can't AOO when flat-footed, which is different), and feint only denies DEX - it does not make the target flat-footed.

2. You use your CMB, NOT your normal attack bonus, when sundering. Rogues often have bad CMBs since its based on BAB and STR (so if you're building the Rogue to do this, you want to find ways to boost CMB). The target sword essentially uses it's holder's CMD. It'll lose the DEX component (being denied DEX), but against a full BAB martial with a high STR, it can be challenging. Don't forget to add the +4 to sunder from your swordbreaker.

3. Assuming you successfully sunder, do you get Sneak Attack against an attended object? Here's where I get lost as well.

3a. Houserule Area (Not even RAI, I think): I'd be inclined to disallow sneak attack damage against objects, mainly because it would lead to weirdness, like Rogues smashing down castle walls, etc. For me, it's largely flavor and I don't think it affects the Rogue (i.e. nerfs them) significantly. On the other hand, I probably would let a Rogue do sneak attack damage when trying to break a complex object, like a clockwork machine that keeps time. Part of the problem I have is that all unattended objects can be argued to be denied DEX so Rogues can just go around smashing things left and right, which seems more the province of Barbarians and their ilk. It gets gray and fuzzy, and becomes subjective, which many don't like, and I don't blame them.

3b. RAW: I think you can do sneak attack damage to the sword. Arguably, it meets all the requirements for sneak attack, and objects are only listed as being immune to non-lethal damage and critical hits. In Pathfinder, being immune to critical hits does not automatically confer immunity to sneak attack. If I had to make a technical argument that RAW you don't get sneak attack, I'd probably argue that you can't feint a creature that does not have an INT score (ie a sword), so while your opponent loses his DEX, the sword doesn't. Before you say that's ludicrous, just because you pull the opponent out of position doesn't mean his sword isn't still flashing around and moving as normal. The other technical argument is the revisions to "Precision Damage", whcih someone else has covered. Me, I'd be fine with whatever the GM decides (I'm easy-going that way), BUT I'd like the GM to lay it out and stick to it. If you plan to build a character around this (or anything that seems iffy or subject to interpretation), ask your GM beforehand or accept that you might get blindsided (even if it's by a houserule made on the fly).

3c. RAI: No idea what the DEVs intended on this. You could go ask Jacobs, FAQ this and hope they respond, or pursue any other channels for clarification that you can find.

Took me so long to write this, I just noticed others have posted already, but I'm going to post this anyways!


While being immune to precision damage and being immune to critical hits are separate things, I can't find any entries that either confirm or deny that being denied your dexterity bonus to AC applies to your held items as well.

Personally, I'd say the sneak attack damage doesn't apply, because it's not an attack, it's a combat maneuver that just happens to have the effect of doing damage to an object.


Sneak Attack requires access to a vital spot. A weapon, and any object, is immune to critical hits. Being uncritable to me means not having a vital spot. Thus no SA dmg to a weapon.

Grand Lodge

Well, immunity to critical hits, and immunity to Precision damage, is not the same thing.

Nevertheless, Objects, are immune to Precision damage.

Liberty's Edge

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I wouldn't have a problem allowing it, but I reserve the right to rule differently in the heat of the moment.

Grand Lodge

I believe there is a feat, that allows you to deal Precision damage to objects.

I think it is Goblin only though.

Shadow Lodge

smashing an object CRB 174 wrote:
Immunities: Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits.

Unfortunately, there's no separate definition of precision damage in the glossary or such. Every monster listed as being immune to critical hits is also listed as immune to precision damage. Items that negate critical hits also negate precision damage. The extra damage from critical hits is treated the same as precision damage for everything, except it is absent from the line about objects. I think most players, myself included, assume that's just an oversight and that crit damage is precision damage, and objects are immune.

Being denied your dex is not the same as being flat footed. A flat footed opponent cannot take an attack of opportunity. An opponent being denied their dex can still take attacks of opportunity.


This is probably as close as you can get

Vandal
Even other goblins admire your talent for mindless
destruction.
Prerequisite: Goblin, sneak attack class feature.
Benefit: You treat unattended objects as if they were
vulnerable to your sneak attack, but you only deal half as
much damage as you would against an actual creature. For
instance, if you rolled 12 extra damage from the sneak attack
you would deal an extra 6 damage to the object. This only
applies when attacking unattended objects.


Greylurker wrote:

This is probably as close as you can get

Vandal
Even other goblins admire your talent for mindless
destruction.
Prerequisite: Goblin, sneak attack class feature.
Benefit: You treat unattended objects as if they were
vulnerable to your sneak attack, but you only deal half as
much damage as you would against an actual creature. For
instance, if you rolled 12 extra damage from the sneak attack
you would deal an extra 6 damage to the object. This only
applies when attacking unattended objects.

And even that's for unattended objects. OP is talking about sundering, so even this feat won't help them.


CriticalQuit wrote:
Greylurker wrote:

This is probably as close as you can get

Vandal
Even other goblins admire your talent for mindless
destruction.
Prerequisite: Goblin, sneak attack class feature.
Benefit: You treat unattended objects as if they were
vulnerable to your sneak attack, but you only deal half as
much damage as you would against an actual creature. For
instance, if you rolled 12 extra damage from the sneak attack
you would deal an extra 6 damage to the object. This only
applies when attacking unattended objects.

And even that's for unattended objects. OP is talking about sundering, so even this feat won't help them.

as I said "Close as you can get"

Disarm em first then Goblin Vandal....

The jerk DM in me is now planning an encounter


May I point out that there specifically are monsters that are immune to criticals but not precision?

(Aeons and swarms btw)

Since objects do not call out immunity to precision, sneak attack does not limit itself against objects, and there specifically are monsters that are immune to crits but not precision I'd have to say that you can sneak attack an object.


After a quick search I cant find anything that prevents it by RAW, but RAI, I don't think it is allowed.

That goblin feat infers that even unattended objects, which are normally worse off than attended objects are immune to sneak attack, so it seem to follow that RAI objects are immune to it. Of course some feats do get past editing, so that is only evidence, not proof.


wraithstrike wrote:

After a quick search I cant find anything that prevents it by RAW, but RAI, I don't think it is allowed.

That goblin feat infers that even unattended objects, which are normally worse off than attended objects are immune to sneak attack, so it seem to follow that RAI objects are immune to it. Of course some feats do get past editing, so that is only evidence, not proof.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury I present the original prone shooter as exhibit A. For exhibit B, I present the original monkey lunge.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

After a quick search I cant find anything that prevents it by RAW, but RAI, I don't think it is allowed.

That goblin feat infers that even unattended objects, which are normally worse off than attended objects are immune to sneak attack, so it seem to follow that RAI objects are immune to it. Of course some feats do get past editing, so that is only evidence, not proof.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury I present the original prone shooter as exhibit A. For exhibit B, I present the original monkey lunge.

Those 2 came to mind. There is another one also, but I forgot the name of it. It is not as popular(well known) as prone shooter though.


wraithstrike wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

After a quick search I cant find anything that prevents it by RAW, but RAI, I don't think it is allowed.

That goblin feat infers that even unattended objects, which are normally worse off than attended objects are immune to sneak attack, so it seem to follow that RAI objects are immune to it. Of course some feats do get past editing, so that is only evidence, not proof.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury I present the original prone shooter as exhibit A. For exhibit B, I present the original monkey lunge.
Those 2 came to mind. There is another one also, but I forgot the name of it. It is not as popular(well known) as prone shooter though.

You mean elephant stomp? The feat that allows you to make an overrun at DC +5 to stop in front of the person and make a single attack?


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

After a quick search I cant find anything that prevents it by RAW, but RAI, I don't think it is allowed.

That goblin feat infers that even unattended objects, which are normally worse off than attended objects are immune to sneak attack, so it seem to follow that RAI objects are immune to it. Of course some feats do get past editing, so that is only evidence, not proof.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury I present the original prone shooter as exhibit A. For exhibit B, I present the original monkey lunge.
Those 2 came to mind. There is another one also, but I forgot the name of it. It is not as popular(well known) as prone shooter though.
You mean elephant stomp? The feat that allows you to make an overrun at DC +5 to stop in front of the person and make a single attack?

Nope. You are allowed to tie someone up if you pin them. There is a feat that allows you to tie them up with a -10 penalty to your grapple check, but you can do that anyway.

Thanks for the elephant stomp notification. Part of me is laughing, and part of me is like this .


CriticalQuit wrote:

While being immune to precision damage and being immune to critical hits are separate things, I can't find any entries that either confirm or deny that being denied your dexterity bonus to AC applies to your held items as well.

Personally, I'd say the sneak attack damage doesn't apply, because it's not an attack, it's a combat maneuver that just happens to have the effect of doing damage to an object.

you can lose your bonus dex to to CMD which is what the OP is targeting.

"A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD."

because the creature has been denied it dex bonus sneak attack applies to the sunder attempt. I don't think this was the devs really though of this coming up.

Objects have vital points it confirmed Via the Martial Artist monk and one of Brawler Archetypes but their is a check to find that weakness or vital point. It makes sense. Sneak attack is doing the same thing but target has to be deny dex to find that vital point.

Exploit Weakness (Ex)
At 4th level, as a swift action, a martial artist can observe a creature or object to find its weak point by making a Wisdom check and adding his monk level against a DC of 10 + the object’s hardness or the target’s CR. If the check succeeds, the martial artist gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls until the end of his turn, and any attacks he makes until the end of his turn ignore the creature or object’s DR or hardness. A martial artist may instead use this ability as a swift action to analyze the movements and expressions of one creature within 30 feet, granting a bonus on Sense Motive checks and Reflex saves and a dodge bonus to AC against that opponent equal to 1/2 his monk level until the start of his next turn.

This ability replaces ki pool."

RAW sneak attacks works because dex is denied and objects are not immune to that type of damage. but it up to DM to determine if object has a vital spot and the rogue can find it. Dm may require a perception check.

Face it rogue needs as many buffs as it can get. It is not game breaking thing. When a wizard can disintegrate an object just as easily or burn it up with a fire ball or flaming sphere. That can do it with no save if the objects are not magical. Hardness still applies as do hp. so not like rouge going to be plumbing through 3ft thick stone walls any faster the a fighter or barbarian. Who get to add all there normal bonus to the damage on the wall.

I honestly think leaving objects can't be critical rather silly just like how it 3.5 you could not critical a golem or undead because it was treated as a objects. They still are in some instances. see the line about fort saves effecting objects. I think they may have forgotten to take that line out.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KainPen wrote:

DM call, I would say yes it works. As objects has and should have weak points also this is the whole point of Martial artist monks archetype find weakness ability that allows them to ignore DR and hardness of objects.

Damaging object rules state they are only immune to.
Immunities
Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Precision damage is not listed

You can't do precision damage on something without vital organs.


LazarX wrote:
KainPen wrote:

DM call, I would say yes it works. As objects has and should have weak points also this is the whole point of Martial artist monks archetype find weakness ability that allows them to ignore DR and hardness of objects.

Damaging object rules state they are only immune to.
Immunities
Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Precision damage is not listed

You can't do precision damage on something without vital organs.

Then if you are correct you can't sneak attack a golem as it has no vital organs. last time I checked you can. guess you can't sneak attack a skeleton as it has no vital organs. I believe you can. no were in sneak attack or mention of precision damage does it say vital organs it simply says a vital spot and must have a physical form. The monk ability proves that objects have a vital spot or weak point. The only things immune to precision damage in any listing are elemental because they have no standard physical form it can come in any shape or size(one fire element can look like a man while the next looks like horse almost amorphous in natural), incorporeal things because they have no physical form, and amorphous creatures because they are shapeless. object do have a physical form and a standard shape and they are called out as only being immune to critical hits and nonlethal damage.


LazarX wrote:
KainPen wrote:

DM call, I would say yes it works. As objects has and should have weak points also this is the whole point of Martial artist monks archetype find weakness ability that allows them to ignore DR and hardness of objects.

Damaging object rules state they are only immune to.
Immunities
Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Precision damage is not listed

You can't do precision damage on something without vital organs.

Indeed, you are flat out incorrect on that. You can sneak attack skeletons, constructs, and a few other such creatures that have no organs at all.

Liberty's Edge

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

May I point out that there specifically are monsters that are immune to criticals but not precision?

(Aeons and swarms btw)

Since objects do not call out immunity to precision, sneak attack does not limit itself against objects, and there specifically are monsters that are immune to crits but not precision I'd have to say that you can sneak attack an object.

PRD wrote:
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy,
PRD- Sneak Attack wrote:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.

I don't think that it is possible to find a vital spot in a swarm. You can find the vital spot of a single creature that is part of a swarm, but that will not affect the damage dealt to the swarm.

The problem is that "precision damage" is ill defined. KainPen definition was taken from the PSRD20, but it is not an official definition, is something that they made up, so it is the site curators opinion. Well informed but an opinion.

Liberty's Edge

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
KainPen wrote:

DM call, I would say yes it works. As objects has and should have weak points also this is the whole point of Martial artist monks archetype find weakness ability that allows them to ignore DR and hardness of objects.

Damaging object rules state they are only immune to.
Immunities
Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Precision damage is not listed

You can't do precision damage on something without vital organs.
Indeed, you are flat out incorrect on that. You can sneak attack skeletons, constructs, and a few other such creatures that have no organs at all.

You can sneak attack most creatures. Non animated objects aren't creatures.

PRD wrote:


Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

A non animated item isn't an opponent.


Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy,
PRD- Sneak Attack wrote:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.

I don't think that it is possible to find a vital spot in a swarm. You can find the vital spot of a single creature that is part of a swarm, but that will not affect the damage dealt to the swarm.

The problem is that "precision damage" is ill defined. KainPen definition was taken from the PSRD20, but it is not an official definition, is something that they made up, so it is the site curators opinion. Well informed but an opinion.

Sorry dude, if it was meant to have immunity to sneak it would call that out. It is not impossible to sneak attack a swarm, even in PFS. It doesn't call it out in immunities? Not an immunity then.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy,
PRD- Sneak Attack wrote:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.

I don't think that it is possible to find a vital spot in a swarm. You can find the vital spot of a single creature that is part of a swarm, but that will not affect the damage dealt to the swarm.

The problem is that "precision damage" is ill defined. KainPen definition was taken from the PSRD20, but it is not an official definition, is something that they made up, so it is the site curators opinion. Well informed but an opinion.

Sorry dude, if it was meant to have immunity to sneak it would call that out. It is not impossible to sneak attack a swarm, even in PFS. It doesn't call it out in immunities? Not an immunity then.

It doesn't have to. Swarms are essentially immune to weapon damage. If you can't damage it with your weapon, you can't sneak it. So yes you can apply your sneak attack dice. It simply doesn't mean diddly squat.


LazarX wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy,
PRD- Sneak Attack wrote:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.

I don't think that it is possible to find a vital spot in a swarm. You can find the vital spot of a single creature that is part of a swarm, but that will not affect the damage dealt to the swarm.

The problem is that "precision damage" is ill defined. KainPen definition was taken from the PSRD20, but it is not an official definition, is something that they made up, so it is the site curators opinion. Well informed but an opinion.

Sorry dude, if it was meant to have immunity to sneak it would call that out. It is not impossible to sneak attack a swarm, even in PFS. It doesn't call it out in immunities? Not an immunity then.
It doesn't have to. Swarms are essentially immune to weapon damage. If you can't damage it with your weapon, you can't sneak it. So yes you can apply your sneak attack dice. It simply doesn't mean diddly squat.

You can sneak with spells dude. facepalm

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy,
PRD- Sneak Attack wrote:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.

I don't think that it is possible to find a vital spot in a swarm. You can find the vital spot of a single creature that is part of a swarm, but that will not affect the damage dealt to the swarm.

The problem is that "precision damage" is ill defined. KainPen definition was taken from the PSRD20, but it is not an official definition, is something that they made up, so it is the site curators opinion. Well informed but an opinion.

Sorry dude, if it was meant to have immunity to sneak it would call that out. It is not impossible to sneak attack a swarm, even in PFS. It doesn't call it out in immunities? Not an immunity then.
It doesn't have to. Swarms are essentially immune to weapon damage. If you can't damage it with your weapon, you can't sneak it. So yes you can apply your sneak attack dice. It simply doesn't mean diddly squat.
You can sneak with spells dude. facepalm

Spells that are Weapon Attack spells, which are NOT AOE spells save in very special circumstances. As impressive as it sounds, you can not Polar Ray a swarm.


It's only swarms of insect-sized creatures that are immune to weapon damage. A swarm of rats is vulnerable to weapons. Invulnerable to sneak attacks? Probably RAI even if not RAW. Although since they can't be flanked it would be fairly hard to get sneak damage anyway.


LazarX wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy,
PRD- Sneak Attack wrote:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.

I don't think that it is possible to find a vital spot in a swarm. You can find the vital spot of a single creature that is part of a swarm, but that will not affect the damage dealt to the swarm.

The problem is that "precision damage" is ill defined. KainPen definition was taken from the PSRD20, but it is not an official definition, is something that they made up, so it is the site curators opinion. Well informed but an opinion.

Sorry dude, if it was meant to have immunity to sneak it would call that out. It is not impossible to sneak attack a swarm, even in PFS. It doesn't call it out in immunities? Not an immunity then.
It doesn't have to. Swarms are essentially immune to weapon damage. If you can't damage it with your weapon, you can't sneak it. So yes you can apply your sneak attack dice. It simply doesn't mean diddly squat.
You can sneak with spells dude. facepalm
Spells that are Weapon Attack spells, which are NOT AOE spells save in very special circumstances. As impressive as it sounds, you can not Polar Ray a swarm.

There are spells that are not rays or melee touch attacks and yet still require attack rolls.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy,
PRD- Sneak Attack wrote:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.

I don't think that it is possible to find a vital spot in a swarm. You can find the vital spot of a single creature that is part of a swarm, but that will not affect the damage dealt to the swarm.

The problem is that "precision damage" is ill defined. KainPen definition was taken from the PSRD20, but it is not an official definition, is something that they made up, so it is the site curators opinion. Well informed but an opinion.

Sorry dude, if it was meant to have immunity to sneak it would call that out. It is not impossible to sneak attack a swarm, even in PFS. It doesn't call it out in immunities? Not an immunity then.
It doesn't have to. Swarms are essentially immune to weapon damage. If you can't damage it with your weapon, you can't sneak it. So yes you can apply your sneak attack dice. It simply doesn't mean diddly squat.
You can sneak with spells dude. facepalm
Spells that are Weapon Attack spells, which are NOT AOE spells save in very special circumstances. As impressive as it sounds, you can not Polar Ray a swarm.
There are spells that are not rays or melee touch attacks and yet still require attack rolls.

Which are single target spells, not much good against swarms.


Quote:

The Pathfinder RPG Bestiary will cover this topic in some detail, but many in this thread seem to have the crux of it worked out.

Incorporeal undead, oozes, elementals are now the only things that are automatically immune to sneak attack and critical hits. Other creatures might be, but this is an exception to the rules and spelled out specifically in their stats.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

It seems that swarms can be be harmed with sneak attack. It does not really make sense to me, but RAW that is the rule. They could have easily put in "sneak attack" when they said swarms were immune to crits but they did't.

Incorporeal creatures are called out as being immune to critical hits and sneak attack and they are also a subtype so I am thinking it was not an oversight by Paizo.


LazarX wrote:
Which are single target spells, not much good against swarms.

Huh, I took your word for it at first, but I did some checking. Wraith is correct, nothing tiny or larger is immune to weapon damage anyways. Basically only the bird and insect swarms, and some of the larger birds will still take weapon damage.

Which means i could poke the swarm with a pointy stick and still get sneak attack damage, even if the damage was halved.


So, uh...

a) It looks like I discovered a new rogue talent

Make Rogues Sad, Part XXVIII
Once per day, instead of dealing sneak attack damage, you can make a free sunder attempt against an opponent's held weapon. If this manuever succeeds, you may add 1 point of damage per die of sneak attack dice you would otherwise have rolled had you decided to stab your opponent in the kidney. If this manuever fails, you become prone, and, oh, covered in grease.

RPG Superstar, here I come!

b) you can sneak attack swarms of any size if you're wearing a swarmbane clasp. Go for the (thousands of) eyes, Boo!


Reading this, I can't help but be reminded of The Gamers: Dorkness Rising, paraphrased thusly:

Player: "Can I Sneak Attack the book?"

DM: "No. It doesn't have a discernible anatomy."

Player: "But it has a SPINE!" *SNEAK ATTACK*

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