Strength V.S. Dexterity: A Comparison of Form, Ability, and Power


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Kudaku wrote:
TheJayde wrote:

If Dex has bonus to attack and damage, I feel that it would cause Strength builds to be overshadowed by Dex builds.

Sure, this will assist some of the underpowered MAD classes with a feat cost of 2, but it will also make some classes that are more reasonable in power be brought higher. Maybe even too high. I mean... Two Weapon Fighter Rangers which dont seem to be terrible, will get a pretty big bump in combat ability.

Another issue... In 4E, they had to add weapon expertise because the numbers weren't scaling properly, and it became a feat that all characters were basically required to get as to scale properly into higher levels. I feel that these Dex to damage/hit feats are going to be the same thing. Dex builds will consider these a requirement to operate or else be sub-par.

Do your players use a lot of non-core Pathfinder material? Dex to attack and damage has been viable for a long time via the Agile enhancement and the Dervish Dance feat, and more recently with Slashing Grace (and soon Fencing Grace). If your players are not familiar with these feats I urge you to point them out and see what your players do with them - I have relatively competent players who have been using these feats for over two years and I've yet to feel that the resulting builds are anywhere near close to being able to topple strength off the "king of melee attributes"-throne.

Generally speaking dexterity users are roughly three feats behind a strength user. Weapon Finesse, "dex-to-damage" feat of choice, and Weapon Versatility to offset the disadvantage of only being able to use a single melee weapon with competence. They also need Weapon Focus, but that's a common feat for most combat styles so I won't count it against them.

I find it interesting that you mention two-weapon rangers - this is a popular class concept specifically because it avoids one of the pitfalls for TWF - that you need to split your ability scores between strength to deal damage and dexterity to qualify for TWF...

We use only Paizo products in our games. Currently I'm the only one using Two Weapon Fighting, but we like to play a very... uh... different game style. We get a character in our head and build to fit the character. We use bad feats like Skill Focus or things that we think are just cool. We don't care about power level because we are almost too meta-cognizant of the game. We know the DM wont put us up against stuff thats too powerful, and so we just make whatever. We have to as well because we have players who are not as good at creating powerful characters.

I have had to purposely weaken my characters because the balance of power is too difficult for the DM to manage one or two powerful characters, and then a bunch of mooks running around.

Anyways- being three feats behind doesn't make a huge difference. Those three feats MAY make up for some of the benefits that the Dex adds to Skills, Initiative, and Reflex saves in a min-max scenario.
I recently was challenged privately to build a character with the basic DPR olympics rules, but I got a Feat that gave Dex to Damage. I would just copy my opponents character and outpace him in damage by making a few changes to the character they created. So far- I was able to pump out comparable DPS while having much higher defensive stats, or I was able to improve DPS by 40 while still having all that extra stuff. The best DPR I was able to reach was 181 btw,

(Below is Edited because I'm dumb and mis understood a statement.)
Yes Rangers are less MAD, but still rely on strength to get damage bonuses. However - If you can spend two feats to consolidate you would spend two feats to get more for less. You get to turn your 18 Str to Dex, which gets you +4 Reflex instead of the +2 Feat bonus... but then you can ALSO get the feat bonus too since they dont overlap. Initiative bonus is the same... except I can take improved initiative to boost it again. Same goes with AC. AC is also higher in situations where there is no armor involved at all like... captive. You get higher Ranged Attack bonuses too. Better skills boosts... and skills that are so much more likely to come into play. You lose... uh... carrying capacity. Replace with mule. You lose breaking ability, but your mage was probably better at that then you anyways. You say its two feats to trade, but its not. Its an upswing in the trade.

Lits of Strength based skills: Climb, and Swim.
List of Dexterity Based Skills: Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth.

Thats kinda like trading two Skill Focus feats (albeit crap feats) for 8 feats.


TheJayde wrote:
We use only Paizo products in our games.

All the options I mentioned are found in Paizo products. Slashing Grace is from the recently released Advanced Class Guide, Dervish Dance is in the Inner Sea World Guide, and Agile is in the Pathfinder Society field guide.

TheJayde wrote:
Currently I'm the only one using Two Weapon Fighting, but we like to play a very... uh... different game style. We get a character in our head and build to fit the character. We use bad feats like Skill Focus or things that we think are just cool. We don't care about power level because we are almost too meta-cognizant of the game. We know the DM wont put us up against stuff thats too powerful, and so we just make whatever. We have to as well because we have players who are not as good at creating powerful characters.

We do the same thing, though we typically try to make characters that are both interesting and competent. Frail and sickly wizard is a viable concept, moronic wizard not so much.

TheJayde wrote:

I have had to purposely weaken my characters because the balance of power is too difficult for the DM to manage one or two powerful characters, and then a bunch of mooks running around.

Anyways- being three feats behind doesn't make a huge difference. Those three feats MAY make up for some of the benefits that the Dex adds to Skills, Initiative, and Reflex saves in a min-max scenario.
I recently was challenged privately to build a character with the basic DPR olympics rules, but I got a Feat that gave Dex to Damage. I would just copy my opponents character and outpace him in damage by making a few changes to the character they created. So far- I was able to pump out comparable DPS while having much higher defensive stats, or I was able to improve DPS by 40 while still having all that extra stuff. The best DPR I was able to reach was 181 btw,

Would you mind posting or linking to the build you describe? You could easily gain dex to damage by picking up a +1 agile weapon using existing material. I'd be very interested in seeing a DPR Olympics-competitive character who uses dexterity to damage. :)

TheJayde wrote:
Yes Rangers are less MAD, but still rely on strength to get damage bonuses... until you provide a feat that grants damage from Dex. It advances thier DPR.

It would advance their dpr, but only slightly. Rangers are one of the classes that would benefit the least, since along with slayers they're the one class that can really pull of a strength-based TWF build. Combining the three feats I mentioned (weapon finesse, slashing grace, weapon versatility) with the myriad of TWF feats (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Double Slice, TW Rend) is extremely feat costly, meaning your build is unlikely to come together until about level 6 at the earliest.


Kudaku wrote:
Stuff

We actually dont use the Inner Sea World Guide. Not that we have an aversion to it, it just seems like... an odd place to find skills and what not. Though that said - I dont mind having Dex to damage abilities but I just want them limited.

I've played a Wizard with a 13 Intelligence. It was... interesting. didnt make it past five and I was a buffer, so it wasnt a huge adversity, but it was a chore in some cases.

Yeah, I will send you a private message.

Also I changed some stuff and edited because I was dumb. Sorry about that.


TheJayde wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Stuff
We actually dont use the Inner Sea World Guide. Not that we have an aversion to it, it just seems like... an odd place to find skills and what not. Though that said - I dont mind having Dex to damage abilities but I just want them limited.

Take a look at the Slashing Grace and Dervish Dance feats. Most people either want a feat similar to Dervish Dance, but that works with any weapon (so no TWF, but you can make a viable one-hander with for example a short-sword), or for slashing grace to lose the one-handed limitation so it would also work with Light weapons such as a dagger. Do you think that would be sufficiently limited to fit in your games?

TheJayde wrote:
I've played a Wizard with a 13 Intelligence. It was... interesting. didnt make it past five and I was a buffer, so it wasnt a huge adversity, but it was a chore in some cases.

When I said Moronic I was thinking more like INT 7. 13 is obviously less than ideal, but could definitely work as long as you don't focus on spells that grant saving throws. Buffing, summoning and general utility spells would be pretty viable options as long as you're able to pick up a +2 int item before you hit level 7. :)

TheJayde wrote:
Yeah, I will send you a private message.

Thanks!

TheJayde wrote:
Also I changed some stuff and edited because I was dumb. Sorry about that.

No worries, I'm a chronic editor - I do that constantly. :-)


Kudaku wrote:
TheJayde wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Stuff
We actually dont use the Inner Sea World Guide. Not that we have an aversion to it, it just seems like... an odd place to find skills and what not. Though that said - I dont mind having Dex to damage abilities but I just want them limited.

Take a look at the Slashing Grace and Dervish Dance feats. Most people either want a feat similar to Dervish Dance, but that works with any weapon (so no TWF, but you can make a viable one-hander with for example a short-sword), or for slashing grace to lose the one-handed limitation so it would also work with Light weapons such as a dagger. Do you think that would be sufficiently limited to fit in your games?

TheJayde wrote:
I've played a Wizard with a 13 Intelligence. It was... interesting. didnt make it past five and I was a buffer, so it wasnt a huge adversity, but it was a chore in some cases.

When I said Moronic I was thinking more like INT 7. 13 is obviously less than ideal, but could definitely work as long as you don't focus on spells that grant saving throws. Buffing, summoning and general utility spells would be pretty viable options as long as you're able to pick up a +2 int item before you hit level 7. :)

TheJayde wrote:
Yeah, I will send you a private message.

Thanks!

TheJayde wrote:
Also I changed some stuff and edited because I was dumb. Sorry about that.
No worries, I'm a chronic editor - I do that constantly. :-)

Im aware of the feats. I like that they are limited. I still think that they are statistically too good for a two feat pre-req. Which is kind of what Im responding to.

I started with AD&D2E, so... I cant even fathom playing a mage with Int lower than 9... or a rogue dex lower than 9... its a restriction in that edition.


TheJayde wrote:
Im aware of the feats. I like that they are limited. I still think that they are statistically too good for a two feat pre-req. Which is kind of what Im responding to.

I see where you're coming from, but it's worth noting that Slashing Grace actually takes up three feats (Weapon Focus + Weapon Finesse + Slashing Grace) while Dervish Dance limits you to only using one one-handed weapon so no TWF, and that both options more or less mandate weapon versatility if you want to get through DR or avoid splitting ooze etc.

TheJayde wrote:
I started with AD&D2E, so... I cant even fathom playing a mage with Int lower than 9... or a rogue dex lower than 9... its a restriction in that edition.

I started with D&D Red Box, though to be honest I was so young I don't really think I understood much of the rules at the time. I first started playing properly using MERP (still have my original character sheet somewhere), then progressed to AD&D, 3.0, 3.5, and now Pathfinder.

Slight sidetrack, but: A 7 int wizard actually still faces a restriction in Pathfinder, though it's less stringent in AD&D - you need an intelligence score of 10+the level of the spell you're trying to cast. Even the worst wizard in all of Golarion would have at least 10 int in order to cast even the simplest cantrip.

The reason I mentioned the moronic wizard was that while I could absolutely see one of my players create a sickly and frail wizard with 7 con and make him viable, but they'd probably avoid the 7 int wizard. They could probably come up with a "moronic wizard" concept, but they'd probably realize it using a different class, like a sorcerer.


Kudaku wrote:
TheJayde wrote:
Im aware of the feats. I like that they are limited. I still think that they are statistically too good for a two feat pre-req. Which is kind of what Im responding to.

I see where you're coming from, but it's worth noting that Slashing Grace actually takes up three feats (Weapon Focus + Weapon Finesse + Slashing Grace) while Dervish Dance limits you to only using one one-handed weapon so no TWF, and that both options more or less mandate weapon versatility if you want to get through DR or avoid splitting ooze etc.

TheJayde wrote:
I started with AD&D2E, so... I cant even fathom playing a mage with Int lower than 9... or a rogue dex lower than 9... its a restriction in that edition.

I started with D&D Red Box, though to be honest I was so young I don't really think I understood much of the rules at the time. I first started playing properly using MERP (still have my original character sheet somewhere), then progressed to AD&D, 3.0, 3.5, and now Pathfinder.

Slight sidetrack, but: A 7 int wizard actually still faces a restriction in Pathfinder, though it's less stringent in AD&D - you need an intelligence score of 10+the level of the spell you're trying to cast. Even the worst wizard in all of Golarion would have at least 10 int in order to cast even the simplest cantrip.

The reason I mentioned the moronic wizard was that while I could absolutely see one of my players create a sickly and frail wizard with 7 con and make him viable, but they'd probably avoid the 7 int wizard. They could probably come up with a "moronic wizard" concept, but they'd probably realize it using a different class, like a sorcerer.

Right. I dont mind them because they are limited. I am against easy concepts that just directly or even broadly exchange Dex into the Str for damage. It takes too much away from Strength.

Nice. My uncles intorduced me into the game. Watched them play for YEARS. When I was twelve they finally let me and my cousins play. I made a fighter named Beethan Lietbur (Name ripped right out of M:TG. Sadly.)

I totally want to play a Int 7 Spellcasater now. Have a Sorcerer who simply reacts to situations. Has no percieved control of the magic, so a lot of the spells will just trigger from my first or funniest response.


Atarlost wrote:

Small cat dex at 1: 21(base)

Attack +6; Dam +5 (size bonus to attack)

Big cat dex at 1: 17(base)
Attack +3; Dam +3
big cat str at 1: 13(base)
Attack +1; Dam +1

Small cat dex at 4: 21(base) +1(l3) -2 (advancement) =20
Attack +5; Dam +5

Big cat dex at 4: 17(base) +1(l3) =18
Attack +4; Dam +4
Big cat str at 4: 13(base) +1(l3) =14
Attack +2; Dam +2

Small cat dex at 7: 21(base) +2(l6) -2 (advancement) =21
Attack +5; Dam +5

Big cat str at 7: 13(base) +2(l6) +8(advancement) =23
Attack +5; Dam +6 (size penalty to attack)

Note that at level 4 a form that advances at level 4 should outperform one that advances at level 7. If finesse is retrainable the big cat is only 1 point behind for greater long term potential. If it isn't the druid will switch companions at level 7, which she can do at no cost.

The big cat has at least +1 damage from larger dice and more significantly gets 5 attacks instead of 1 on a charge. Even with finesse the small cat is probably not worth it. The defenses are a bit better (sans barding from the feat not used on finesse) but animal companions can be replaced for free in a day.

Nethack wrote:
You feel sad for a moment, but the feeling passes.

Kudaku already pointed out that it isn't good for the small cat to gain the 4th level advancement (thank you Kudaku for pointing out the rule I was using), take the +2 dex and con instead and stay small ( for a dex of 26). It makes the small cat an amazingly better option at 4 and in almost all ways at 7th. Look at my stat blocks on page 2 for the comparison, its crazy how much it messes with things, even if it costs 2 feats to get dex to damage it is so much better there isn't a choice.


My playgroup has played with Dex to damage forever and STR characters are on-par, if not better.

Anyone who claims that Dex-to-damage, with two feats as requirement, overshadows STR builds, clearly hasn't made the math or thought about the implications.

Dex-to-damage characters do have two very important advantages: skills and initiative. Of course, that is VERY IMPORTANT for DEX fighters, because if they lost initiative, their flat-footed AC would be damning for them.

Anyway, I challenge anyone to make a character that has Dex-to-damage through a two-feat investment that is outright better than a STR fighter. Barring, as I've said, skills and initiative, I find it impossible. The STR fighter usually has much higher damage potential and more room for feats, not to mention more versatility in battle.

The one exception might be a Slayer, but I haven't been able to theorycraft with it yet.

To demonstrate, here are two Ranger options:
Dex-based

Spoiler:
Goblin Guide
Male Goblin ranger 12 Archetypes Guide, Skirmisher,
None Small humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +6, Senses darkvision (60 ft.); Perception +20
=================================================
DEFENSE
=================================================
AC 25, touch 19, flat-footed 18 (+4 armor, +6 Dex, +1 dodge, +2 natural, +1 size )
hp 95 ((12d10)+27)
Fort +10, Ref +14, Will +10

=================================================
OFFENSE
=================================================
Speed 30 ft., Woodland Stride
Melee scimitar +3 (small/keen) +22/+17/+12 (1d4+9/12-20)

=================================================
TACTICS
=================================================

=================================================
STATISTICS
=================================================
Str 5, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 5,
Base Atk +12; CMB +8; CMD 26
Feats Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Endurance, Furious Focus, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Power Attack, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +22, Climb +24, Escape Artist +7, Handle Animal +1, Heal +20, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (Geography) +6, Knowledge (Nature) +17, Perception +20, Perform (Dance) -1, Ride +10, Spellcraft +17, Stealth +25, Survival +20, Swim +1,
Traits Indomitable Faith, Wisdom in the Flesh (Irori) - Strength (Climb),
Languages Common, Draconic, Goblin
SQ aiding attack, camouflage, distracting attack, fast, favored terrain (underground) +4, favored terrain (urban) +2, hunter's tricks, inspired moment, ranger's focus, ranger's luck, second chance strike, skill sage, swift tracker, terrain bond, track +6, tree runner, weapon and armor proficiency, wild empathy +9, woodland stride,
Combat Gear
Other Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier, headband of inspired wisdom +4, amulet of natural armor +1, ring ( natural armor bonus (enhancement) (+1)), mithral shirt (small), 600.0 gp
=================================================
SPECIAL ABILITIES
=================================================
Aiding Attack (Ex) The ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits a creature with an attack. The next ally who makes an attack against the target creature before the start of the ranger's next turn gains a +2 circumstance bonus on that attack roll.

Camouflage (Ex) You can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of your favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.

Darkvision Goblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet.

Distracting Attack (Ex) The ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls for 1 round.

Fast (Ex) Goblins have a base speed of 30 ft.

Favored Terrain (Underground) (Ex) You gain a +4 bonus on Knowledge (Geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival checks when using these skills in underground terrain (caves and dungeons). Likewise, you get a +4 bonus on initiative checks when in this terrain. If you desire, you leave no trail in this terrain and cannot be tracked.

Favored Terrain (Urban) (Ex) You gain a +2 bonus on Knowledge (Geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival checks when using these skills in urban terrain (buildings, streets, and sewers). Likewise, you get a +2 bonus on initiative checks when in this terrain. If you desire, you leave no trail in this terrain and cannot be tracked.

Hunter's Tricks A skirmisher ranger learns the use of 4 hunter's tricks, which typically grant a boon or bonus to the ranger or a nearby ally. A ranger can use these tricks 11 times per day. Tricks are usually swift actions, but sometimes move or free actions that modify a standard action, usually an attack action. Once a trick is chosen, it can't be retrained. A ranger cannot select an individual trick more than once. This ability replaces the ranger's spells class feature. Skirmishers do not gain any spells or spellcasting ability, do not have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger and spell completion magic items.

Indomitable Faith You were born in a region where your faith was not popular, yet you never abandoned it. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Will saves as a result.

Inspired Moment (Ex) At 11th level, the guide can have an inspired moment once per day as a free action. The ranger gains the following benefits until the end of his next turn. His speed increases by 10 feet. He can take an extra move or swift action on his turn. He gains a +4 bonus to AC and on attack rolls, skill checks, or ability checks. Finally, he automatically confirms any critical threat he scores. He can use this ability one additional time per day at 19th level. This ability replaces quarry and improved quarry.

No Spellcasting

Ranger's Focus (Ex) At 1st level, once per day, the guide can focus on a single enemy within line of sight as a swift action. That creature remains the ranger's focus until it is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points or surrenders, or until the ranger designates a new focus, whichever occurs first. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls against the target of his focus. At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +2. At 4th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the ranger can use this ability one additional time per day. This ability replaces favored enemy.

Ranger's Luck (Ex) Upon reaching 9th level, once per day the guide can either reroll one of his attack rolls or force an enemy who just hit him with an attack to reroll the attack roll. The ranger must take the result of the second roll even if it is worse. A ranger can use this ability once per day at 9th level, plus one additional time per day at 14th and 19th levels. This ability replaces evasion.

Second Chance Strike (Ex) When he misses with a melee attack, the ranger may reroll his attack at a -5 penalty. Using this ability is an immediate action.

Skill Sage (Ex) As a free action, the ranger can roll twice on any one skill check and take the better result. He must have at least 1 rank in that skill to use this ability.

Swift Tracker (Ex) You can move at your normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking the normal -5 penalty. You take only a -10 penalty (instead of the normal -20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.

Terrain Bond (Ex) At 4th level, the guide forms a bond with the land itself, enabling him to direct others in such terrain. When in his favored terrain, the ranger grants all allies within line of sight and that can hear him a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks. Also, as long as they travel with him, the ranger's allies leave no trail and can't be tracked. The ranger can choose for the group to leave a trail, or even specific members of the group to leave a trail if he so desires. This ability replaces hunter's bond.

Track (Ex) You gain +6 to Survival checks made to follow tracks.

Tree Runner (Ex) You gain a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb checks.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

Wild Empathy

Wild Empathy (Ex) You can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. You roll 1d20+9 to determine the Wild Empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly. To use Wild Empathy, you and the animal must be within 30 feet of one another under normal circumstances. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but as with influencing people, it might take more or less time. You can use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but you take a -4 penalty on the check.

Wisdom in the Flesh (Irori) - Strength (Climb) Your hours of meditation on inner perfection and the nature of strength and speed allows you to focus your thoughts to achieve things your body might not normally be able to do on its own. Select any Strength-based skill. You make checks with that skill using your Wisdom modifier instead of the skill's normal ability score. That skill is always a class skill for you.

Woodland Stride

Woodland Stride (Ex) You may move through any sort of magical undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrains) at your normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect you.

And here's a STR-based two-weapon fighter...

Spoiler:
Rock Solid
Male Oread ranger 12 Archetypes Guide, Skirmisher,
None Medium outsider (native)
Init +4, Senses darkvision (60 ft.); Perception +20
=================================================
DEFENSE
=================================================
AC 25, touch 14, flat-footed 22 (+7 armor, +3 Dex, +3 natural, +1 shield ), Two-Weapon Defense
hp 69 ((12d10)+12)
Fort +12, Ref +14, Will +12

=================================================
OFFENSE
=================================================
Speed 20 ft., Woodland Stride
Melee kukri +1 (keen) +23/+18/+13 (1d4+10/12-20)
Melee kukri (bloodletting) +23/+18/+13 (1d4+10/15-20)

=================================================
TACTICS
=================================================

=================================================
STATISTICS
=================================================
Str 28, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 7, Wis 20, Cha 5,
Base Atk +12; CMB +21; CMD 35
Feats Double Slice, Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical (Kukri), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Toughness, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Kukri)
Skills Acrobatics +13, Climb +22, Handle Animal +1, Heal +9, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (Geography) +2, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Perception +20, Ride +5, Stealth +16, Swim +16,
Traits Adopted, Forlorn, Veteran of Battle (Gorum),
Languages Common, Terran
SQ camouflage, crystalline form, darkvision, favored terrain (mountain) +2, favored terrain (underground) +4, hobbling attack, hunter's tricks, inspired moment, ranger's focus, ranger's luck, second chance strike, surprise shift, swift tracker, tangling attack, terrain bond, track +6, treacherous earth, weapon and armor proficiency, wild empathy +9, woodland stride,
Combat Gear
Other Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier, amulet of natural armor +2, headband of inspired wisdom +4, kukri +1 (keen), kukri (bloodletting), bracers of armor +3, belt of giant strength +6, elven chain, cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +1 934.0 gp
=================================================
SPECIAL ABILITIES
=================================================
Adopted You were adopted and raised by someone not of your actual race, and raised in a society not your own. You may immediately select a race trait from your adoptive parent's race.

Camouflage (Ex) You can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of your favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.

Crystalline Form (Ex) Gain +2 AC against rays; 1/day deflect a ray as if using Deflect Arrows.

Darkvision (Ex) Range 60 ft.; Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise-invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.

Darkvision

Elf

Favored Terrain (Mountain) (Ex) You gain a +2 bonus on Knowledge (Geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival checks when using these skills in mountain terrain (including hills). Likewise, you get a +2 bonus on initiative checks when in this terrain. If you desire, you leave no trail in this terrain and cannot be tracked.

Favored Terrain (Underground) (Ex) You gain a +4 bonus on Knowledge (Geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival checks when using these skills in underground terrain (caves and dungeons). Likewise, you get a +4 bonus on initiative checks when in this terrain. If you desire, you leave no trail in this terrain and cannot be tracked.

Forlorn Having lived outside of traditional elf society for much or all of your life, you know the world can be cruel, dangerous, and unforgiving of the weak. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Fortitude saving throws.

Granite Skin (Ex) Gain a +1 racial bonus to natural armor.

Hobbling Attack (Ex) The ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits with an attack. The target of the attack's land speed is reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds.

Hunter's Tricks A skirmisher ranger learns the use of 4 hunter's tricks, which typically grant a boon or bonus to the ranger or a nearby ally. A ranger can use these tricks 11 times per day. Tricks are usually swift actions, but sometimes move or free actions that modify a standard action, usually an attack action. Once a trick is chosen, it can't be retrained. A ranger cannot select an individual trick more than once. This ability replaces the ranger's spells class feature. Skirmishers do not gain any spells or spellcasting ability, do not have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger and spell completion magic items.

Inspired Moment (Ex) At 11th level, the guide can have an inspired moment once per day as a free action. The ranger gains the following benefits until the end of his next turn. His speed increases by 10 feet. He can take an extra move or swift action on his turn. He gains a +4 bonus to AC and on attack rolls, skill checks, or ability checks. Finally, he automatically confirms any critical threat he scores. He can use this ability one additional time per day at 19th level. This ability replaces quarry and improved quarry.

No Spellcasting

Ranger's Focus (Ex) At 1st level, once per day, the guide can focus on a single enemy within line of sight as a swift action. That creature remains the ranger's focus until it is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points or surrenders, or until the ranger designates a new focus, whichever occurs first. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls against the target of his focus. At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +2. At 4th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the ranger can use this ability one additional time per day. This ability replaces favored enemy.

Ranger's Luck (Ex) Upon reaching 9th level, once per day the guide can either reroll one of his attack rolls or force an enemy who just hit him with an attack to reroll the attack roll. The ranger must take the result of the second roll even if it is worse. A ranger can use this ability once per day at 9th level, plus one additional time per day at 14th and 19th levels. This ability replaces evasion.

Second Chance Strike (Ex) When he misses with a melee attack, the ranger may reroll his attack at a -5 penalty. Using this ability is an immediate action.

Surprise Shift (Ex) The ranger can move 5 feet as a move action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.

Swift Tracker (Ex) You can move at your normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking the normal -5 penalty. You take only a -10 penalty (instead of the normal -20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.

Tangling Attack (Ex) The ranger can use this attack as a free action when he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target is entangled for 1 round.

Terrain Bond (Ex) At 4th level, the guide forms a bond with the land itself, enabling him to direct others in such terrain. When in his favored terrain, the ranger grants all allies within line of sight and that can hear him a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks. Also, as long as they travel with him, the ranger's allies leave no trail and can't be tracked. The ranger can choose for the group to leave a trail, or even specific members of the group to leave a trail if he so desires. This ability replaces hunter's bond.

Track (Ex) You gain +6 to Survival checks made to follow tracks.

Treacherous Earth Once per day, an oread with this racial trait can will the earth to rumble and shift, transforming a 10-foot-radius patch of earth, unworked stone, or sand into an area of difficult terrain, centered on an area the oread touches. This lasts for a number of minutes equal to the oread's level, after which the ground returns to normal. This racial trait replaces the spell-like ability racial trait.

Veteran of Battle (Gorum) You have fought in several battles, and each time felt the presence of Gorum guiding your sword-arm, making you ready to act at a moment's notice. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Initiative checks, and if you are able to act during a surprise round, you may a draw a weapon (but not a potion or magic item) as a free action during that round.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

Wild Empathy

Wild Empathy (Ex) You can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. You roll 1d20+9 to determine the Wild Empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly. To use Wild Empathy, you and the animal must be within 30 feet of one another under normal circumstances. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but as with influencing people, it might take more or less time. You can use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but you take a -4 penalty on the check.

Woodland Stride

Woodland Stride (Ex) You may move through any sort of magical undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrains) at your normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect you.

As you can see, neither is outright better than the other, and both have stronger and weaker areas. The Dex-Ranger is more able with skills and has the higher initiative, while the Str-Ranger has more attacks per round and what not.

What if you allowed Dex-based creatures to add Dex to damage while dual wielding? Well, I hazard to think they wouldn't be better than the Str-Ranger, because of the feat tax.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Secret Wizard wrote:

My playgroup has played with Dex to damage forever and STR characters are on-par, if not better.

Anyone who claims that Dex-to-damage, with two feats as requirement, overshadows STR builds, clearly hasn't made the math or thought about the implications.

Dex-to-damage characters do have two very important advantages: skills and initiative. Of course, that is VERY IMPORTANT for DEX fighters, because if they lost initiative, their flat-footed AC would be damning for them.

Anyway, I challenge anyone to make a character that has Dex-to-damage through a two-feat investment that is outright better than a STR fighter. Barring, as I've said, skills and initiative, I find it impossible. The STR fighter usually has much higher damage potential and more room for feats, not to mention more versatility in battle.

The one exception might be a Slayer, but I haven't been able to theorycraft with it yet.

Dex to damage has nothing to do with fighters, whether or not they can take dex to damage. Dex to damage only matters when you allow easy access for everyone, PC's and monsters. Because if it breaks down anywhere then it is unbalanced, which it is. Just because str fighters maybe better (or not) than dex fighters does not mean anything.


Not to mention, as has come up before, most of the best martial buffs are much better for strength builds than dex ones. Just about every magical option for increasing your size category (which martial love) comes with a strength buff and a dex penalty, for example.


Secret Wizard wrote:

My playgroup has played with Dex to damage forever and STR characters are on-par, if not better.

Anyone who claims that Dex-to-damage, with two feats as requirement, overshadows STR builds, clearly hasn't made the math or thought about the implications.

Dex-to-damage characters do have two very important advantages: skills and initiative. Of course, that is VERY IMPORTANT for DEX fighters, because if they lost initiative, their flat-footed AC would be damning for them.

Anyway, I challenge anyone to make a character that has Dex-to-damage through a two-feat investment that is outright better than a STR fighter. Barring, as I've said, skills and initiative, I find it impossible. The STR fighter usually has much higher damage potential and more room for feats, not to mention more versatility in battle.

The one exception might be a Slayer, but I haven't been able to theorycraft with it yet.

Just because your playgroup doesnt optimize (or optimize well (or know how to optimize well)) doesn't mean that it doesn't have benefits. Anecdotal evidence is not really evidence.

I have done the math. Its extremely effective. The peak of damage for a Full Dex Fighter is higher with a Dex to Damage Feat structure that is universal. Two Requirements (particularly if they are ones you want already such as Weapon Finesse) isn't sufficient if its a broad ability. If its refined like Dervish Dance... sure.

If you can use the DRP Olympics rules that provides a 181 DPR on a round by round basis, I would be interested to see. Even if the damage is comparable, the benefit to Dex damage build is still greater. Keep in mind, the average level 10 monster has 130 HP.

Im not saying you can't beat the 181 DPR, but I havent seen too many builds that provide that sort of consistent damage. (Though... to be fair- I haven't done an exhaustive search for it, but I have looked.)

DPR 181:

The rules which was presented to me by my opponent here is... that I could get a Dex to Damage feat that stands in for Dex in all aspects other than Power Attack. This is why I get the bonus for Double Slice. The proposed feat is taken at level 3 in my feat listing and required Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus.

I’m also using a mutagen from the alchemist with the archetype as it is a 10 minute per level effect.

Ability Scores: (Human) (Fighter/Mutation Warrior Archetype)
STR: 13 (+1)
DEX: 28 (+9) (16 base, +2 level +4 Enhancement, +2 Racial, +4 Mutagen)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 10 (0) (-2 Mutagen)
CHA: 8 (-1)

HP: 109 HP (10d10+30)

Saving Throws
Fort: +9
Ref: +9
Will: +6 (+8 against fear)

AC: 24 - Touch 17, Flatfooted 18 (+4 Mithril Shirt, +6 Dex, +1 Dodge, +2 Natural Armor, +1 Deflection)

Attacks: Main +10/+10/+5 Off +10/+5
(Hit – 10 Bab + 1 Weapon, +1 Haste +2 Focus, +4 Weapon Training, +9 Dex, +1 Morale, -2 Penalty -3 Power = +23 )

Damage: 1D6 (+1 Weapon, +9 Dex, +2 Specialize,+ 1 Morale, +4 Weapon Training, +6 Power/3 Offhand, Crit Damage +6) + Vicious (Avg 7) 33.5 / 32.5

Trait: Killer +Damage based on crit range on crit attacks.
Axe to Grind +1 Damage when you are the only adjacent enemy to target of attacks.

-----------Attack------------------Hit%------Dmg------Crit%-----CDmg-----Cr itConf-- Resulting Damage
1st Main Hand Attack-----------.95-------33.5-------.30--------32.5---------.95-------- 41.0875
Haste Attack----------------------.95-------33.5-------.30--------32.5---------.9 5-------- 41.0875
Second Main Hand Attack-----.75------33.5 -------.30--------32.5---------.75-------- 32.4375
1st Off Hand Attack--------------.95------30.5--------.30--------29.5---------.95------- - 37.3825
2nd Off Hand Attack-------------.75------30.5---------.30-------29.5---------.75-------- 29.5125
Total -------- 181.5075

Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +2 (light blades)
Weapon Training +1 (bows)
Bonus Feats X 6
BAB: +10 CMB: +11 CMD: 27
Feats:
1st - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Wakizashi), Weapon Finesse, two Weapon Fighting
2nd Weapon Focus (Wakizashi)
3rd Dex to Damage Feat
4th Weapon Specialization (Wakizashi)
5th Power Attack
6th Improve Two Weapon Fighting
7th Double Slice
8th Greater Weapon Focus
9th Improve Critical
10th Desperate Battler

Skills:
Ya know…
Gear:
+1 Vicious Wakizashi (8,000)
+1 Vicious Wakizashi (8,000)
Belt of Dexterity +4 (16,000)
Mithril Shirt (1,100)
Boots of Speed (12,000)
Gloves of Dueling (15,000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000)

Sovereign Court

Secret Wizard wrote:


Anyway, I challenge anyone to make a character that has Dex-to-damage through a two-feat investment that is outright better than a STR fighter. Barring, as I've said, skills and initiative, I find it impossible. The STR fighter usually has much higher damage potential and more room for feats, not to mention more versatility in battle.

For a pure fighter - maybe not.

But TWF stacks too well with sneak attack and other precision damage. (hence the swashbuckler only getting their bonus when they don't attack with an off-hand)

But - for the sake of argument - here's a ballpark for Joe - the human swash 1/fighter(weapon master)4.

Str:10
Dex:19 (21)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:14

Attacks : +11/+11 for 1d8+9 damage each. (5 from dex/+1 magic/weapon spec/weapon training)

feats: TWF/Exotic:sawtoothed/slashing grace/weapon focus/weapon spec/step up/following step

A two-handed fighter at this level can expect to get about a +13 to hit (if str & dex reversed, and then Cha dropped in favor of a 12 dex/12wis) for 2d6+11 damage. At the same accuracy they'd be at 2d6+17 damage (power attack).

The two-handed fighter is noticably better in situations when they have to move, since they each only gets 1 swing. (though to be at the same accuracy he'd have to drop power attack) The TWF does significantly more when he gets a full attack. In addition, his initiative is better, reflex saves are better, he can move faster around the battlefield, and he gets the panache bonuses.

As his dex goes up, he gains somewhat more than when his counterpart's strength goes up, as his damage increases by +2 vs 1.5, and his benefits to initiative/saves etc is made larger.

In addition, the dex fighter gets twice as much out of static bonuses to damage such as inspire courage etc.

Overall - I'd say that the dex version is considerably more powerful, though they're both in the same ballpark. (Admittedly - some of that is from how great of a 1 level dip swashbuckler is.)

I haven't looked into slayer much yet - but you might be able to make a better dex fighter out of a swash 1 and into slayer. But with sneak attack being situational, that'd be an apples to oranges comparison and I wanted to avoid that.

Edit: And also of note - I kept the level low to keep down the variables. In general though, as the numbers go up, the dex fighter gains more advantages vs two-handed.


We optimize, I added two characters above that have been used in our games.

Your guy is mostly optimized but apparently you want 10 Intelligence for some obscure reason. I generally go 7 Int and take all my skill points and FCB skillpoints into Perception and Fly (if you are going Mutation Warrior for the Wings).

I welcome you to try building a similar build but for a STR fighter, then let me know how much worse it fares.


Just looks like a more well rounded character... I'm not sure where it becomes broken in your eyes. This build is pretty heavily optimized for damage as all your money is focused on damage aside from a ring of protection, so I can't say im surprised that you are putting out a lot of damage... two vicious wakizashi? How much damage are you doing to yourself each round?

Shadow Lodge

"Surely the Swashbuckler outdprs the Barbarian"

Lol what a fine joke


Assuming 4 of the 5 attacks hit, vicious costs on average 14 HP each round.

Near as I can tell you haven't picked a mutagen discovery. I'd suggest Wings.

The saving throws seem off. Shouldn't the reflex save be +12, and the will save be +3? Reflex doesn't seem to have added the base save progression (+3), and I don't see any traits, feats or items that improve the will save. 10 wisdom means a +0 modifier...?

Shouldn't 10d10+30 average out to ~90 HP rather than 109?


Charon's Little Helper wrote:


But - for the sake of argument - here's a ballpark for Joe - the human swash 1/fighter(weapon master)4.

A TWF STR-based ranger 5 would go for +12/+12 1d4+8 with a better crit range, or, strictly built for damage and not crits, you could get to +11/+11 1d10 +8 and 1d6 +8 (a Bastard Sword and a Sword).

I don't see it being lopsided at all honestly.

And I'm not even factoring in Ranger spells that might buff your damage OR Ranger's Focus, which is a +4/+4 to attack and damage against a target.


Honestly, if we can have a discussion this long about the pros and cons of each build in a vacuum, then I think that one or the others superiority is debatable. If that is true, then I would suggest that the effect of dexterity as a damaging statistic is within the balance paradigm of the game. If a cleric can exist inside the same game as fighters, then perhaps dexterity to damage is not so large a thing.

Sovereign Court

Secret Wizard wrote:

A TWF STR-based ranger 5 would go for +12/+12 1d4+8 with a better crit range, or, strictly built for damage and not crits, you could get to +11/+11 1d10 +8 and 1d6 +8 (a Bastard Sword and a Sword).

His AC is gonna suck since you don't have heavy armor and your dex sucks. And how in the world are you that accurate? Try +9/+9. (5 BAB + strength + magic - 2) and your damage should be more like +6 (strength & magic weapons).

Please explain what I missed. (if I did)


Secret Wizard wrote:


I welcome you to try building a similar build but for a STR fighter, then let me know how much worse it fares.

Funny. The character is based on my opponents character. I just modified his build. The build he produced using a strength based build was 141 DPR.

Why don't YOU do the math? I've done mine. You shouldn't tell others to do the same work you aren't willing to. Building a character is not the same as doing the math. Those characters you posted I don't seem to think will be very good in DPR. In Fact - I think that your level 12 characters won't out DPR my level 10 character.

Kudaku wrote:

Assuming 4 of the 5 attacks hit, vicious costs on average 14 HP each round.

Near as I can tell you haven't picked a mutagen discovery. I'd suggest Wings.

The saving throws seem off. Shouldn't the reflex save be +12, and the will save be +3? Reflex doesn't seem to have added the base save progression (+3), and I don't see any traits, feats or items that improve the will save. 10 wisdom means a +0 modifier...?

Shouldn't 10d10+30 average out to ~90 HP rather than 109?

I didnt change much of the stuff. Since I used my opponents stats as a base to work from (as I was trying to prove a point) I didnt change much of the other stats that he had modified. It was a DPR Race with certain paramters required. I needed the Ring of Protection and Mithril Shirt to increase my armor class to that which is required in the DPR olympics. My opponent required a +2 Breastplate and a Ring of protection.

Trogdar wrote:
Honestly, if we can have a discussion this long about the pros and cons of each build in a vacuum, then I think that one or the others superiority is debatable. If that is true, then I would suggest that the effect of dexterity as a damaging statistic is within the balance paradigm of the game. If a cleric can exist inside the same game as fighters, then perhaps dexterity to damage is not so large a thing.

Fighters surely need help, but I'd much rather see the power level of other classes brought down to thier level instead of increaseing the fighters(or other martial only classes) abilities to be raised up.

The point though... is if one build applies strictly beneficial gains over other builds, then other builds become sub-par. I hate not being able to contribute to my party because I chose a fighter who throws daggers, and the build has sub-par options. I dont need to do the most damage, or be the best at anything, but I want to contribute to a combat instead of sitting in the back doing nothing.

I actually have a Fighter Rogue in 2E right now that does that because at level 11 he is too frail (40hp) to take one attack from my enemiees, while also dealing less damage than every other character in the party. He does some damage, but its really not even comparable.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:


But - for the sake of argument - here's a ballpark for Joe - the human swash 1/fighter(weapon master)4.

A TWF STR-based ranger 5 would go for +12/+12 1d4+8 with a better crit range, or, strictly built for damage and not crits, you could get to +11/+11 1d10 +8 and 1d6 +8 (a Bastard Sword and a Sword).

I don't see it being lopsided at all honestly.

And I'm not even factoring in Ranger spells that might buff your damage OR Ranger's Focus, which is a +4/+4 to attack and damage against a target.

My competition also did a Ranger vs Ranger build, and I had more damage but I also had a higher movement, higher armor class, higher savs, higher initiative, and higher skills.

My opponent had 142 DPR, and my build was 176 with an all dex build. Though these builds did not include the animal companions as they are effectively equal DPR. Again, I copied his build... took away some feats that were small benefits, and added the Dex to Damage an hit feats instead. Almost the exact same builds and I still come out on top.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:


But - for the sake of argument - here's a ballpark for Joe - the human swash 1/fighter(weapon master)4.

I think you'd get more DPR by choosing a Fighter with the 'Mutation Warrior' Archetype as it will give you a +4 Dex and -2 Wisdom.

Sovereign Court

TheJayde wrote:
I think you'd get more DPR by choosing a Fighter with the 'Mutation Warrior' Archetype as it will give you a +4 Dex and -2 Wisdom.

Quite possibly - I put it together in about 5 min.


You'll do tonnes of damage for sure, until you need to make a save... then you, and your party by proxy will be totally screwed.

@TheJayde - there already is one true build in the game, the strength build. You can't make a decent thrower in the game because you can't apply damage properly due to the constraints of the statistics. Basically, if you need to split your focus between stats like a thrower or something similar, than you can be pretty certain that after a certain point your character will be unable to push through DR.

At this moment, if you take a character without dexterity to damage and build him to fight using dexterity, you will not be able to deal enough damage to contribute. That is one of the issues with the agile enchantment because you have to trade away dr penetration for it.


TheJayde wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:


I welcome you to try building a similar build but for a STR fighter, then let me know how much worse it fares.

Funny. The character is based on my opponents character. I just modified his build. The build he produced using a strength based build was 141 DPR.

Why don't YOU do the math? I've done mine.

And I mine? I constantly post builds to prove Dex-to-damage isn't broken. Of course you are gonna be a better Swashbuckler if you go Dex, but it's not always the case.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

A TWF STR-based ranger 5 would go for +12/+12 1d4+8 with a better crit range, or, strictly built for damage and not crits, you could get to +11/+11 1d10 +8 and 1d6 +8 (a Bastard Sword and a Sword).

His AC is gonna suck since you don't have heavy armor and your dex sucks. And how in the world are you that accurate? Try +9/+9. (5 BAB + strength + magic - 2) and your damage should be more like +6 (strength & magic weapons).

Please explain what I missed. (if I did)

Here is the dude. He is better off-wearing medium armor, that's why Oread and Dwarf-Blooded are a good combo.

Note that it has Lead Blades and Sun Metal, which could be cast on his weapons.

After starting Ranger's Focus, we are looking at +16 to hit and +11 on damage for both weapons. Has waaaaaaay better saves than your Swashbuckler, who is also getting -2 to Wisdom from Mutagen and a bad Fort save.

Once you get Elven Chain, this guy starts rocking more. You really want to put 1 to Dex and 1 to Wis at 8 and 12, then more STR at 16 and 20.

Any similar Dex-based build would be two feats behind. Also, I bet that my guy has way better CMD.

Spoiler:
Rock Solid
Male Oread ranger 5 Archetypes Guide,
None Medium outsider (native)
Init +3, Senses darkvision (60 ft.); Perception +10
=================================================
DEFENSE
=================================================
AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 18, vs rays 14 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, )
hp 42 ((5d10)+13)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +4

=================================================
OFFENSE
=================================================
Speed 20 ft.
Melee sword +1 (bastard) +12 (1d10+7/19-20)
Melee sword +1 (short) +12 (1d6+7/19-20)
=================================================
STATISTICS
=================================================
Str 22, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 15, Cha 5,
Base Atk +5; CMB +11; CMD 23
Feats Double Slice, Dwarf Blooded, Endurance, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sword (Bastard)), Two-Weapon Fighting
Skills Climb +10, Perception +10, Ride +2, Stealth +6, Survival +10, Swim +6,
Traits Indomitable Faith, Veteran of Battle (Gorum),
Languages Common, Terran
SQ crystalline form, darkvision, favored terrain (mountain) +2, ranger's focus, steady, stonecunning, terrain bond, track +2, treacherous earth, weapon and armor proficiency, wild empathy +2,
Combat Gear
Other Gear sword +1 (bastard), sword +1 (short), belt of giant strength +2, chainmail +1, 555.0 gp
=================================================
SPECIAL ABILITIES
=================================================
Crystalline Form (Ex) Gain +2 AC against rays; 1/day deflect a ray as if using Deflect Arrows.

Darkvision (Ex) Range 60 ft.; Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise-invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.

Darkvision

Favored Terrain (Mountain) (Ex) You gain a +2 bonus on Knowledge (Geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival checks when using these skills in mountain terrain (including hills). Likewise, you get a +2 bonus on initiative checks when in this terrain. If you desire, you leave no trail in this terrain and cannot be tracked.

Granite Skin (Ex) Gain a +1 racial bonus to natural armor.

Indomitable Faith You were born in a region where your faith was not popular, yet you never abandoned it. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Will saves as a result.

Ranger's Focus (Ex) At 1st level, once per day, the guide can focus on a single enemy within line of sight as a swift action. That creature remains the ranger's focus until it is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points or surrenders, or until the ranger designates a new focus, whichever occurs first. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls against the target of his focus. At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +2. At 4th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the ranger can use this ability one additional time per day. This ability replaces favored enemy.

Steady (Ex) Dwarves never have their speed reduced by armor or encumbrance.

Stonecunning (Ex) Dwarves receive a +2 bonus on Perception skill checks to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors located in stone walls or floors. They receive a check to notice such features whenever they pass within 10 feet of them, regardless of whether or not they are actively looking.

Terrain Bond (Ex) At 4th level, the guide forms a bond with the land itself, enabling him to direct others in such terrain. When in his favored terrain, the ranger grants all allies within line of sight and that can hear him a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks. Also, as long as they travel with him, the ranger's allies leave no trail and can't be tracked. The ranger can choose for the group to leave a trail, or even specific members of the group to leave a trail if he so desires. This ability replaces hunter's bond.

Track (Ex) You gain +2 to Survival checks made to follow tracks.

Treacherous Earth Once per day, an oread with this racial trait can will the earth to rumble and shift, transforming a 10-foot-radius patch of earth, unworked stone, or sand into an area of difficult terrain, centered on an area the oread touches. This lasts for a number of minutes equal to the oread's level, after which the ground returns to normal. This racial trait replaces the spell-like ability racial trait.

Veteran of Battle (Gorum) You have fought in several battles, and each time felt the presence of Gorum guiding your sword-arm, making you ready to act at a moment's notice. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Initiative checks, and if you are able to act during a surprise round, you may a draw a weapon (but not a potion or magic item) as a free action during that round.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

Wild Empathy

Wild Empathy (Ex) You can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. You roll 1d20+2 to determine the Wild Empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly. To use Wild Empathy, you and the animal must be within 30 feet of one another under normal circumstances. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but as with influencing people, it might take more or less time. You can use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but you take a -4 penalty on the check.

MAJOR EDIT: I KNEW I WAS FORGETTING SOMETHING!!!!

This guy had the Dwarf-Blooded feat to wear Medium armor without losing speed! My bad! Changed to reflect it.

Sovereign Court

Secret Wizard wrote:


After starting Ranger's Focus, we are looking at +16 to hit and +11 on damage for both weapons. Has waaaaaaay better saves than your Swashbuckler, who is also getting -2 to Wisdom from Mutagen and a bad Fort save.

Mine wasn't mutagen warrior - so no minus to wis.

Also - please don't use a broken race to prove a build is as good. Use human as it's a baseline to take race out of the equation

Mine would have an AC 23 (7 armor/5dex/1deflection) Not to mention panache for higher defenses. Could have jacked it up to 25 if didn't take step up/following step. Yours would have been 17 sans broken race.

HP: 46

Reflex:+8 (higher)
Fort:+5 (a bit lower)
Will:+2 (admittedly weak - but yours would be 1 lower sans broken race)

Your accuracy is only +12 when not TWF (to compare to my +11, you'd be at +10) so you're less accurate by a point.

You removed skills when dropping Int to 7. So... yeah.

Basically - the dex build has somewhat higher DPR (both higher damage and accuracy) - and due to higher AC (not to mention panache/initiative etc) it'd slice that build into ribbons.

The dex swash/fighter would hit the ranger on a roll of 7, making him average 20.79 damage a turn.

The strength ranger would need to roll a 13 to hit, making him average 10.12 damage a turn.

It's really no contest.


O-oreads are a broken race? We are talking about a 6 RP race here. How is it broken at all? Humans get a fricking extra feat. They are a 10 RP race.

If you can add Panache to your defense, I can add Ranger's Focus to my attack, so my guy would have an effective +14 accuracy, hitting your dude on 11 for 1d10+11. Your dude, with +11, would hit my guy on a 9.

You are adding your own class features but not adding mine.

It's no contest on skills, sure, but I can still max my necessary skills as a Ranger.

If you wanna optimize, use all the characteristics of this game.

Get ONE more person to agree with you on Oreads being broken and we will talk.

EDIT: Seriously, I'm building a fricking PFS legal character here. I am not using a Drow or a Tiefling or another 17 RP race. The weakness of Dex-to-damage is the feat tax it gets and you wisely picked a Human to get those feats and be able to maximize damage at 5. That's understandable. How isn't it understandable for me to pick a race that can help me maximize my mobility and damage then?

Sovereign Court

Admittedly I forgot to include ranger's focus. (though since it's only once per day - I'm not sure that it should qualify)

But for the rest - you re-statted your character since my previous post. You can't change the numbers and then complain that I didn't use them. (and +1 chain-mail is only a +6 armor bonus - I'm going to assume you meant +1 breastplate)

And if I totally cheese out my build (instead of building a well rounded dex build) then I could get his dex a point higher (getting his to hit & damage a point higher), and jack up his AC to 25 with feats.

And yes - Oreads are at the same level of broken as Tieflings & Aasimar.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Admittedly I forgot to include ranger's focus.

But for the rest - you re-statted your character since my previous post. You can't change the numbers and then complain that I didn't use them. (and +1 chain-mail is only a +6 armor bonus - I'm going to assume you meant +1 breastplate)

And if I totally cheese out my build (instead of building a well rounded dex build) then I could get his dex a point higher (getting his to hit & damage a point higher), and jack up his AC to 25 with feats.

And yes - Oreads are at the same level of broken as Tieflings & Aasimar.

But I am not cheesing my build... he still has the right skills, he still has great saves, he still hits his skills right where he needs them.

Plus, this thread isn't about whether a Human can deal more damage than another with Dex-to-damage. This thread is about whether Dex-to-damage makes Str-fighting obsolete. And it doesn't.

Sovereign Court

Secret Wizard wrote:

But I am not cheesing my build... he still has the right skills, he still has great saves, he still hits his skills right where he needs them.

Plus, this thread isn't about whether a Human can deal more damage than another with Dex-to-damage. This thread is about whether Dex-to-damage makes Str-fighting obsolete. And it doesn't.

Except that your challenge was simply to create a "Dex-to-damage through a two-feat investment that is outright better than a STR fighter".

I did so.

Even in my initial post I said that they're in the same ballpark. Nonetheless dex to damage is somewhat better. (and as was mentioned - my 5 min build wasn't really top tier since I'd have been better off with a mutagen warrior)


Low will characters are unviable.

Shadow Lodge

Given random specific challenges of optimization can lead to a variety of results. Wizard 1 vs Fighter 1 is not the same as Wizard 20 vs Fighter 20

Scarab Sages

I don't know how pertinent this info may seem, but I've been playing a bit of D&D Next lately, a system where certain weapons have the option to be use Dexterity for Attack and Damage rolls as a baseline. The system ALSO eliminates the 1.5x Str. damage bonus for two-handing a weapon.

What we're left with is that Strength really only contributes to strength checks, a few skills, and damage with weapons that really only add 1-2 points of extra damage.

I'm finding more and more that it's difficult to choose a strength-based character. The armor options end up making AC about even across the board for many classes at early levels, and bounded accuracy means that a high-dexterity literally has NO downsides, save for the above mentioned things.

I think that's basically what would happen if Dex could be applied to hit and damage liberally and easily. True, you'd lose out on some damage, but the added survivability you get from the extra AC and reflex saves far outweighs the minor damage loss.

Imagine a monk that could add dexterity to attacks and damage. It'd be crazy at low levels, and he'd have high AC AND decent attack and damage bonuses. Two-weapon fighting would be way more effective, as would archery (oh gosh.... archery), and all of these characters would have great defenses to boot.

It works... alright in D&D 5th, but I can't see it working in Pathfinder.


Ghostwasp wrote:
How would Str based characters get two extra feats and 3 points at character creation, actually what does that even mean?

The person you were talking to is referring to the fact that getting dex to damage takes two feats, and that dex-to-damage characters still need to blow three creation points buying Str 13.

Ghostwasp wrote:
If you allow one stat (lets say str) to govern melee to hit, ranged to hit, melee damage, ranged damage, AC, initiative, and the reflex saving throw would that be balanced?

That depends very much on the cost. Since your proposed cost is three feats, and since those three feats don't allow the character to bypass the max-dex limitation on armour, I don't see a problem. Feats are precious.

Str is already linked to AC. High str characters can wear heavier armour. High dex characters need to wear lighter armour to avoid penalising their dex. And yes, that does work out okay for dex... but not strictly better. Just okay.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Low will characters are unviable.

Your character has like a 10% chance to pass the will save more than his character to pass will saves. Literally the WHOLE difference in will save comes from your racial bonuses.

Since we are also looking at your race, your base speed is 20. Which means, the fighter produced by Charon's Little Helper could out pace you by shooting with Ranged attacks (Since his high dex still makes him pretty good with those too) and you could just never catch him.

He could choose an Undine to increase his Will by +1 point and drop the feat step up, or... OR just drop Step Up for Iron Will, and balance it out.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:


Str is already linked to AC. High str characters can wear heavier armour. High dex characters need to wear lighter armour to avoid penalising their dex. And yes, that does work out okay for dex... but not strictly better. Just okay.

Strength is not tied to Armor. Lack of Dex is tied to armor. A character with a 10 strength can wear Full Plate and carry two weapons if needed and be no more effected by a Medium load than the armor effects them already. Also - Muleback Cord is pretty inexpensive.


Trogdar wrote:

You'll do tonnes of damage for sure, until you need to make a save... then you, and your party by proxy will be totally screwed.

@TheJayde - there already is one true build in the game, the strength build. You can't make a decent thrower in the game because you can't apply damage properly due to the constraints of the statistics. Basically, if you need to split your focus between stats like a thrower or something similar, than you can be pretty certain that after a certain point your character will be unable to push through DR.

At this moment, if you take a character without dexterity to damage and build him to fight using dexterity, you will not be able to deal enough damage to contribute. That is one of the issues with the agile enchantment because you have to trade away dr penetration for it.

The concept of calculating the maximum DPR is to show the overall capability of the ability score. For each feat or attribute that you retract on your build from damage to make your overall balance and quality of the character even out, I can do the same. Yes - I lose more damage with each feat lost to shoring up my weaknesses, but I still have more damage and my percentage stays higher.

The point is that my damage output is going to be greater than yours with strength because of these feats. You're clearly familiar with the issues presented with classes that are MAD. The whle debate really comes down to consolidation of MAD. Take away your dependance on Str, and apply bonuses those bonuses to Dex reduces MAD (Albiet with the cost of a couple of feats) and causes some MAD classes to step up, but classes that arent quite so MAD even better. The high tide raises all ships.


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Some things that seem to have been overlooked thus far
1. For a strength character to match a dex character in AC they will have to use heavier armor. A character with a 14 dex or less will be looking at heavy armor which will give you a movement penalty even if you make it mithril. Not being able to make attack due to movement restrictions is a huge DPS loss. Also, heavy armor is generally more expensive than light armor, when means the strength fighter has less WBL for other things. The movement penalty and initial cost of armor are both major reasons for me favoring dex character over strength ones.
2. Saying that a strength character can take a cloak of resist to shore up their low reflex saves is irrelevant. Almost every character is going to take a cloak of resist.
3. A dex character can get away with a 10 strength(thank you piranha strike), a strength character generally needs a 13+ for their dex because they still need it for AC and access for feats like dodge.
4. Scaling. At level 10, with a standard build and belt of std/dex +4, you should have a 24 to your dex or str. The strength character will have maybe a 14 for their dex. That means the dex character has a +5 init, +5 reflex save, +5 AC. The best the strength fighter can do without losing movement is mithril breast plate(4350gp, +6AC) for a total of +8 AC. Meanwhile, the dex character grabs darkleaf studded leather(925 gp, +2 AC) for a total of +9 AC. If the strength character grabs improved initiative and lightning reflexes to mirror weapon finesse and the dex to damage feat, they are still -3325 gold, -1 initiative, -3 reflex, and -1 AC compared to the dexterity character. More importantly, the gap will only grow as the character go up in level, because the strength character will focus on gaining strength, and the dex character will focus on dex.
5. Games are not played in a vacuum. TWF characters are generally 10% behind strength character in damage on their own, but a TWF or feral fighter(IE lots of low damage attacks) gains a lot more damage from a bardic performance than a two-hander. A lot of two-hand builds are already hitting on a 2+ with their opening attack with power attack, so they don't benefit as much from raw pluses to hit like bless and good hope or being turned invisible via improved visibility. Meanwhile, a lot of defensive buffing spells overlap with bonuses from equipment(ring of protecting overlaps with shield of faith for example). On a well rounded character, it is usually easier to gain offense that it is to gain defense.

Right now, I feel that the balance is in a good place, dex characters have better defenses, but they do slightly less damage.

Silver Crusade

Charender wrote:
Right now, I feel that the balance is in a good place, dex characters have better defenses, but they do slightly less damage.

Honestly, I agree. For only 4 more points of AC/Reflex/Init, we miss out on some stupendous Str damage multipliers and Feats/Feat requirements. I'm sure there are a plethora of other trade-offs too(like MAD characters, it helps a lot). I feel it's a fair or decent trade at the least.

I really just wish Weapon Finesse gave us both the ability to use Dex Mod with Attacks on One-Handed/Light Weapons, and/or Dex-to-Damage with those weapons. It'd be nice if it was just knocked down to One feat cost, instead of having to do these silly multiclasses/feat-taxes to go with the norm.


Kazumetsa_Raijin wrote:
Charender wrote:
Right now, I feel that the balance is in a good place, dex characters have better defenses, but they do slightly less damage.

Honestly, I agree. For only 4 more points of AC/Reflex/Init, we miss out on some stupendous Str damage multipliers and Feats/Feat requirements. I'm sure there are a plethora of other trade-offs too(like MAD characters, it helps a lot). I feel it's a fair or decent trade at the least.

I really just wish Weapon Finesse gave us both the ability to use Dex Mod with Attacks on One-Handed/Light Weapons, and/or Dex-to-Damage with those weapons. It'd be nice if it was just knocked down to One feat cost, instead of having to do these silly multiclasses/feat-taxes to go with the norm.

Actually, I think that the balance is in a good place with the current RAW(IE no general dex to damage feat). I can use agile weapons, feats like dervish dance, or certain class abilities to gain dex to damage, but I generally take a hit to my damage output in doing so that balances out my character not needing strength.


Charender, the best STR-based characters have methods to move at full speed with heavy armor. Dwarfs, dwarf-heritage, Fighter levels, or spells that allow it (like the Rangers').

Also, Piranha Strike is only good if you dual-wield light weapons or only use one. It is useless if you use Spiked Chain, Elven Curved Sword, Scimitar, Rapier, Dueling Sword, etc.

The STR fighter will deal incredibly more powerful crits thanks to Power Attack scaling, but the bard thing is true.


Secret Wizard wrote:

Charender, the best STR-based characters have methods to move at full speed with heavy armor. Dwarfs, dwarf-heritage, Fighter levels, or spells that allow it (like the Rangers').

Also, Piranha Strike is only good if you dual-wield light weapons or only use one. It is useless if you use Spiked Chain, Elven Curved Sword, Scimitar, Rapier, Dueling Sword, etc.

The STR fighter will deal incredibly more powerful crits thanks to Power Attack scaling, but the bard thing is true.

So basically, you have to be a level 7 fighter who doesn't swap out armor training, a dwarf(with an inherent 20 foot move), burn a feat, or burn resources. Heavy armor is still more expensive. I would say that dex characters still have a massive advantage here.

Dual wielding light weapons is one of the best dex based options, but if you absolutely need power attack, a 2 level dip in ranger gets you power attack without needing to have a 13 strength. Otherwise, piranha strike will get the job done.

STR fighter may get bigger crits, but the TWF will give you more frequent smaller crits. Big crits also give you more overkill, which is a loss in damage dealt. I am more than willing to call it a wash.

Also, in addition to bards, look at a TWF paladin or a normal TWF fighter's damage when a paladin uses their group smite.


Charender wrote:
Dual wielding light weapons is one of the best dex based options

Enhancing the two weaposn is also more expensive than the diference beteween heavy armor and light armor.


I think i need to remind that what he wrote is pretty much in favor of improving dex-to-damage possibilities.
(also, piranha strike doesn't work for dex because you cant get dex-to-damage on light weapon right now)

Most people don't want to diminish the dex to damage cost, they want to limit the number of ridiculous hoops and jump required to achieve it.

For example, the way slashing grace work you might have weapon focus in a weapon that doesn't work for you for a while before you spontaneously become a master of using it. Also, why the requirement of a level in swashbuckler? There is the same things for the dwarvish dance things.

Basicly, the major gripe people have is not that it doesn't exist or that it is bad, it's that the only way of making a dexterous character is by following a very limited number of cookie cutter build. The debate about character build is ultimately pointless thread derailment, the fact that all build shown have very similar degree of power merely show that expended options would not warp the metagame, and even less your home game.


zapbib wrote:
Basicly, the major gripe people have is not that it doesn't exist or that it is bad, it's that the only way of making a dexterous character is by following a very limited number of cookie cutter build. The debate about character build is ultimately pointless thread derailment, the fact that all build shown have very similar degree of power merely show that expended options would not warp the metagame, and even less your home game.

The gripe is fine. The results are the issue. This is why we bring in builds to show how imbalancing the dex to damage can be if it is too easy to use, or has too little cost to apply.

And no... all builds shown do not have similar degree of power. You aren't looking at them very hard. The Dex to damage based characters have HIGHER DPR than thier Strength based counterparts, while also having higher defenses, skills, and mobility with the ONLY downfall being carrying capacity. In the words of Jubal Early, "Does that seem right to you?"


Nicos wrote:
Charender wrote:
Dual wielding light weapons is one of the best dex based options
Enchanting the two weaposn is also more expensive than the diference beteween heavy armor and light armor.

And what about at level 1-3 when no one has magic weapons or armor?

At level 1, you have 100-200 gold.
Strength character has 13-14 dex with an 18 strength. 100 gold gets you a chain shirt. for a 15-16 AC.
Dexterity characters have a 18 dex. Of have for the same 100 gold I get a chain shirt too and have an 18 AC or they can spend 10 gold on leather and have a 16 AC.

Once you hit level 5 or so, you have enough WBL to start getting the exact equipment you want, but starting out, Dex characters have a significant wealth advantage. This is another places where YMMV. Level 1 is the only time you have complete control over your character's gear. Once the game starts, the campaign and pacing may dictate what gear is available to you.

Having to enchant a second weapon is one of the few reasons why TWF damage lags behind a two-hander, but depending on party composition, you may not need to enchant a second weapon(Greater Magic Weapon).


If you want to talk about levels 1-3, then at low levels the feat expenditure for being a dex character is downright punitive, and the magic item route is (obviously) not available. If you want to two weapon fight with dex-to-damage just using feats, you'd have to have:

Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus
Slashing Grace
Two-Weapon Fighting
Exotic Weapon Prof (Aldori Dueling Sword or Sawtooth Sabre)
Piranha Strike

Even if you're running a human fighter, it'll take a while to get all of those. Plus further the rest of the TWF feats down the line. One of the big advantages of swinging a two-handed weapon has always been the comparative lack of feat taxes. Power Attack is pretty much it. I can think of plenty of used I could find for those five extra feats.

Not to mention that Greater Magic Weapon doesn't grant the DR penetration of a proper enhancement bonus. And DR already hurts TWF-ers more than it hurts a character with fewer, harder hits.


Chengar Qordath wrote:

If you want to talk about levels 1-3, then at low levels the feat expenditure for being a dex character is downright punitive, and the magic item route is (obviously) not available. If you want to two weapon fight with dex-to-damage just using feats, you'd have to have:

Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus
Slashing Grace
Two-Weapon Fighting
Exotic Weapon Prof (Aldori Dueling Sword or Sawtooth Sabre)
Piranha Strike

Even if you're running a human fighter, it'll take a while to get all of those. Plus further the rest of the TWF feats down the line. One of the big advantages of swinging a two-handed weapon has always been the comparative lack of feat taxes. Power Attack is pretty much it. I can think of plenty of used I could find for those five extra feats.

Not to mention that Greater Magic Weapon doesn't grant the DR penetration of a proper enhancement bonus. And DR already hurts TWF-ers more than it hurts a character with fewer, harder hits.

FYI, Weapon Focus and Pirahna Strike are a wash since a two-hander will be getting weapon focus and power attack as well. Exotic Weapon Prof. and slashing grace are not a requirement for TWF, because Kukri's get the job done just fine. The only feat tax on TWFing is TWF, Imp TWF, Greater IWF. Also, note that Greater TWF is considered optional because it is a minimal DPS gain. The only feat tax on dex to damage is currently weapon finesse. That is only 3 feats, 4 if you created a general dex to damage feat. The real hit to the dex TWFer right now is having to enchant 2 agile weapons. -1 to hit and damage on both weapons hurts quite a bit, and you don't get those weapons until around level 6-8, which oddly enough is about the time when strength fighters are getting access to all that nifty armor that helps them make up for the difference in AC.

There are plenty of other ways to get around DR in a group setting: Golf bag approach, Penetrating strike, Weapon Blanches, and spells like align weapon. If DR is slowing you down significantly, you are probably doing it wrong.


Charender wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:

If you want to talk about levels 1-3, then at low levels the feat expenditure for being a dex character is downright punitive, and the magic item route is (obviously) not available. If you want to two weapon fight with dex-to-damage just using feats, you'd have to have:

Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus
Slashing Grace
Two-Weapon Fighting
Exotic Weapon Prof (Aldori Dueling Sword or Sawtooth Sabre)
Piranha Strike

Even if you're running a human fighter, it'll take a while to get all of those. Plus further the rest of the TWF feats down the line. One of the big advantages of swinging a two-handed weapon has always been the comparative lack of feat taxes. Power Attack is pretty much it. I can think of plenty of used I could find for those five extra feats.

Not to mention that Greater Magic Weapon doesn't grant the DR penetration of a proper enhancement bonus. And DR already hurts TWF-ers more than it hurts a character with fewer, harder hits.

FYI, Weapon Focus and Pirahna Strike are a wash since a two-hander will be getting weapon focus and power attack as well. Exotic Weapon Prof. and slashing grace are not a requirement for TWF, because Kukri's get the job done just fine. The only feat tax on TWFing is TWF, Imp TWF, Greater IWF. Also, note that Greater TWF is considered optional because it is a minimal DPS gain. The only feat tax on dex to damage is currently weapon finesse. That is only 3 feats, 4 if you created a general dex to damage feat. The real hit to the dex TWFer right now is having to enchant 2 agile weapons. -1 to hit and damage on both weapons hurts quite a bit, and you don't get those weapons until around level 6-8, which oddly enough is about the time when strength fighters are getting access to all that nifty armor that helps them make up for the difference in AC.

There are plenty of other ways to get around DR in a group setting: Golf bag approach, Penetrating strike, Weapon Blanches, and spells like align weapon. If DR is slowing you down...

Ah, but having a build that doesn't come online until it gets a specific magic item at level 6-8 rather defeats the argument that dex builds are superior at levels 1-3, doesn't it?


Chengar Qordath wrote:

Ah, but having a build that doesn't come online until it gets a specific magic item at level 6-8 rather defeats the argument that dex builds are superior at levels 1-3, doesn't it?

I think it is reasonable to say that the Dex build is equal to its strength component at early levels. Even with the Dex to Damage feats. The scaling is the whole issue. It scales SO well, and things get so much better and better with each new advancement.

At low numbers there just isn't room for variance. Thus the numbers are going to look that much closer if they look much different at all.


Can we pick a position and stick with it? It's rather hard to make a counterpoint when there's a completely different argument every time I post. Are dex builds:

1) Superior at low levels, but strength catches up later.

2) Slow to start, but then catch up once agile weapons are available.

3) Equal and low levels, and superior later.

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