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Hi all,
Like most of you, I thought that the semi-colon in the requirements for the feat Pummeling Style from the ACG, as seen in the text here:
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack
bonus +6, brawler’s flurry† class feature, or flurry of
blows class feature
meant that the requirements for the feat were one of the below 3.
1. +6 BaB
2. Brawler's flurry
3. Flurry of Blows
However, the good folk at Herolabs do not think so. In fact they think the +6 BaB is more or less mandatory to take the feat in any circumstance.
I'm not asking you to convince me (preaching to the choir here), but could you kindly FAQ this so that Paizo provides a solid reply to this in the invevitable faqs for the ACG (and also to get them to use less ambiguous punctuation in the future).
For the proper use of Pummeling style on Herolabs!
prototype00
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No FAQ is required here. You need ONE of the three prereqs of BAB +6 or Brawler's Flurry or Flurry of Blows, and you also need to have Improved Unarmed Strike.
Yeah, but if the Herolab folks can be confused, imagine other DMs having the same confusion.
Sometimes the faqs have to say something obvious when there is even a smidgen of doubt.
prototype00
*And yes, I understand at present that faqs in Paizo are a zero sum game due to the lack of staff, but have they not said that they have hired new staff for that exact purpose? I try to stay optimistic.*
This is not a FAQ request that is needed. This is the Herolab people reading something wrong and putting that into their product.
Herolab is irrelevant as far as the rules work. We do not need to FAQ things so they match what Herolab says. Herolab does not develop Pathfinder, and their mistakes do not reflect on the actual rules.
I suggest you take it to their forum and put it up as a request to remedy this mistake.
I can see where their confusion would come from. This stumped my buddy and I for a good few minutes but we figured it out. Herolab may just be dumb.
Herolab is irrelevant as far as the rules work. We do not need to FAQ things so they match what Herolab says. Herolab does not develop Pathfinder, and their mistakes do not reflect on the actual rules
Agreed, no FAQ needed, its quite clear, which is rare for the ACG.
Good rule of thumb, don't trust Hero Lab. Its really really bad.
At one point for PFS I had audited over 20 (probably pretty close to 30) hero lab PC's, and not one of them was right, and some had TERRIBLE flaws.
To be fair this was a few years back and I hear its gotten better, but I still hear about these errors all the time, a few just came up for people I know yesterday actually. The worst part is said people then argue about how it doesn't work, even when multiple people are reading and seeing the EXACT same thing!
I don't touch it though after seeing how awful it was back then, plus I think you have to pay for each book, I already paid for them though, why buy them again?
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It's basic English. It requires IUS and one of the following--hence the commas and the "or".
At one point for PFS I had audited over 20 (probably pretty close to 30) hero lab PC's, and not one of them was right, and some had TERRIBLE flaws.To be fair this was a few years back and I hear its gotten better, but I still hear about these errors all the time, a few just came up for people I know yesterday actually.
One of the common players at my local game store said "that worn equipment doesn't count towards your encumbrance." I'm guessing herolabs has an option for this, but he didn't know that was wrong. Another time I gave someone a reach weapon because we were all lined up a narrow hall and that was the only way for the other melee to attack. He didn't know how to use the weapon because it wasn't printed on his sheet. I've cast enlarge on others with just hero lab sheets and they get completely lost at the change in numbers.
Hero labs is an awesome tool, but it shouldn't be someone's total basis of knowledge about the game.
I am telling you my opinion, based on a series of events that happened, admittedly a few years ago.
To drill the point home the OP is having an issue with it, and we had two problems with it yesterday with people building their PC's on hero labs. 3 mistakes in 2 days is a lot. Auditing 20 plus pcs and not a single one being right is a lot. Perhaps "It's quite often wrong" would've been more appropriate however.
The solution here is to submit a bug report to Hero Lab. Here is the proper link to do so:
Please report bugs in official Paizo Pathfinder content using our bug report form here:
http://www.wolflair.com/redirect/bugreport.php?project=pathfinder
Submitting your bug through this form automatically files it in our issue tracking system. You should then receive an email confirmation that your bug report was received, including a case number. (If you don't get such an email within 10-15 minutes, check your spam folder.)
We'll follow up with you regarding the bug within 3 business days. If we can't reproduce it ourselves, we may ask you for extra information, or a saved portfolio demonstrating the problem.
I will admit that HL has been having a lot of bugs since the ACG material was added. Before that, it was nearly flawless for me and I had 20+ characters I had created using it.I am telling you my opinion, based on a series of events that happened, admittedly a few years ago.
To drill the point home the OP is having an issue with it, and we had two problems with it yesterday with people building their PC's on hero labs. 3 mistakes in 2 days is a lot. Auditing 20 plus pcs and not a single one being right is a lot. Perhaps "It's quite often wrong" would've been more appropriate however.
All depends what kind of characters you make and what options you have. I used a friends to try it out and it was far from flawless. It handled simple characters pretty well but more complicated ones not so much. Now like Under A Bleeding Sun, it's been a while so they may have drastically improved themselves. I keep seeing 'Hero Lab lets me do it/doesn't let me do it' in the rules threads so I have to wonder.
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If there is a mistake in Herolab, I don't hold it against them, to err is human and all that. They fix it soon enough.
Turns out that they might change it on the basis of the semi-colon (and my queries) so most frabjous day! 10/10 for customer engagement at the very least.
prototype00
The FAQ-flagging system is supposed to be for getting clarification on genuinely unclear rules, not for convincing third-party companies that the rules really do mean what they say.
I must have missed this entry in the forum rules (unless it is something you made up not 5 minutes ago).
As I said in an earlier post (which you have ignored), it is possible to become confused over the punctuation. While it seems most people did not, it did require some inquiry.
prototype00
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The FAQ-flagging system is supposed to be for getting clarification on genuinely unclear rules, not for convincing third-party companies that the rules really do mean what they say.
While this is certainly true, this has the potential to confuse many GMs, and since the feat can be used in PFS it can lead to table variation and needing to rewrite a character at the table or withdraw from the game if the GM incorrectly parses the semicolon and refuses to allow a low level monk or brawler to use the feat.
It needs clarification.
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What GM in the world would think you need to have both Brawler's Flurry and Flurry of Blows to qualify for a feat?
What GM in the world would think you need to have both Brawler's Flurry and Flurry of Blows to qualify for a feat?
It wouldn't be the first time a feat requires abilities from different classes. Someone new might be confused.
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This is gross hyperbole, and some of the worst I have ever seen at that (see what I did there?). HeroLab gets the rules right way more often than not, and the ones they do tend to confuse are the ones that everybody confuses. I understand you may not like HeroLab, which means you probably don't use it. And if you don't use it, you probably shouldn't comment on its efficacy.Herolab is irrelevant as far as the rules work. We do not need to FAQ things so they match what Herolab says. Herolab does not develop Pathfinder, and their mistakes do not reflect on the actual rulesAgreed, no FAQ needed, its quite clear, which is rare for the ACG.
Good rule of thumb, don't trust Hero Lab. Its really really bad.
At one point for PFS I had audited over 20 (probably pretty close to 30) hero lab PC's, and not one of them was right, and some had TERRIBLE flaws.
To be fair this was a few years back and I hear its gotten better, but I still hear about these errors all the time, a few just came up for people I know yesterday actually. The worst part is said people then argue about how it doesn't work, even when multiple people are reading and seeing the EXACT same thing!
I don't touch it though after seeing how awful it was back then, plus I think you have to pay for each book, I already paid for them though, why buy them again?
I use herolab all the time, it is a great tool for many reasons. But it simply cannot handle complex builds. On a complexness scales of 1-10, herolab will bork anything higher than a 4 and require serious handholding beyond that point. I audit all of my NPC's from ground up when using it and won't allow new players to use it all.
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I use herolab all the time, it is a great tool for many reasons. But it simply cannot handle complex builds. On a complexness scales of 1-10, herolab will bork anything higher than a 4 and require serious handholding beyond that point. I audit all of my NPC's from ground up when using it and won't allow new players to use it all.This is gross hyperbole, and some of the worst I have ever seen at that (see what I did there?). HeroLab gets the rules right way more often than not, and the ones they do tend to confuse are the ones that everybody confuses. I understand you may not like HeroLab, which means you probably don't use it. And if you don't use it, you probably shouldn't comment on its efficacy.Herolab is irrelevant as far as the rules work. We do not need to FAQ things so they match what Herolab says. Herolab does not develop Pathfinder, and their mistakes do not reflect on the actual rulesAgreed, no FAQ needed, its quite clear, which is rare for the ACG.
Good rule of thumb, don't trust Hero Lab. Its really really bad.
At one point for PFS I had audited over 20 (probably pretty close to 30) hero lab PC's, and not one of them was right, and some had TERRIBLE flaws.
To be fair this was a few years back and I hear its gotten better, but I still hear about these errors all the time, a few just came up for people I know yesterday actually. The worst part is said people then argue about how it doesn't work, even when multiple people are reading and seeing the EXACT same thing!
I don't touch it though after seeing how awful it was back then, plus I think you have to pay for each book, I already paid for them though, why buy them again?
Agreed. I prefer hitting the books to absorb every little detail for any and all builds. 4E is for hand-holding.
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However, since this is the rules forum, and HL is an officially sanctioned product, it is a house rule.
Herolab isn't a rules source. Anytime someone says 'herolab lets me do it' I ask what the actual rules say. 'sanctioned' doesn't change that.
As far as a house-rule: I don't see the rejection a non-paizo product a house-rule.
However, since this is the rules forum, and HL is an officially sanctioned product, it is a house rule.Herolab isn't a rules source. Anytime someone says 'herolab lets me do it' I ask what the actual rules say. 'sanctioned' doesn't change that.
As far as a house-rule: I don't see the rejection a non-paizo product a house-rule.
It's not about using Hero Lab as an official source; it's about using Hero Lab as a tool to create and manage characters.
Outside of PFS, GMs are free to restrict whatever tools they want. Since Hero Lab is an officially-sanctioned product, PFS GMs have to be reasonable.
Whatever tools the players use to build and manage characters, there will be mistakes. How do we deal with them?
If someone builds a spreadsheet to calculate their ability scores, modifiers, and attack and damage modifiers, and we find there are mistakes in it, should we say that no players should ever use spreadsheets to calculate modifiers?
If a player builds a character by hand, and they make a mistake, do we just not that player build a character again, or just not let them play?
Most Hero Lab errors I've seen have been configuration issues or user error. Some have been actual bugs--which is why I always recommend that people verify the numbers, submit bugs when they find them, and use one of the custom adjustment packages to override these bugs until they get fixed.
However, since this is the rules forum, and HL is an officially sanctioned product, it is a house rule.Herolab isn't a rules source. Anytime someone says 'herolab lets me do it' I ask what the actual rules say. 'sanctioned' doesn't change that.
As far as a house-rule: I don't see the rejection a non-paizo product a house-rule.
It's not about using Hero Lab as an official source; it's about using Hero Lab as a tool to create and manage characters.
Outside of PFS, GMs are free to restrict whatever tools they want. Since Hero Lab is an officially-sanctioned product, PFS GMs have to be reasonable.
Take note of the part I quoted. It IS about using Hero Lab as an official source. Note how he says this is a rules forum and NOT using Herolab would be a house-rule to not allow it in a home game.
You can feel anyway you wish to about Herolab, but it's NOT a paizo product and isn't a rules source. Myself, I found plenty of errors and I don't care what form they show up as.
As to what tools to use, I'd prefer it done by hand. That way, when I ask how a bonus ended up this number, they know why. Not 'I hit the button and it spit out this number'. Errors can still happen but it's easier to find if you know how it came to be.
If you're GMing PFS you don't get to decide who uses HL and who doesn't.
Wow, I struck a nerve here. This isn't the PFS forum and I don't see a herolab section in my CRB.
If you're talking about a home game, of course you're welcome to make whatever house rules you want.
Why do people say "homegame" and "house rule" like they are some derogatory term? "Homegames" are how the game was written and meant to be played. PFS is a marketing tool. PFS is not "pure" or "real" Pathfinder.
However, since this is the rules forum, and HL is an officially sanctioned product, it is a house rule.
HA! What an awesome statement. Do you work for Lone Wolf? No? Just a feel like a stock holder with that $250 of 1's and 0's on your computer? Yea, me too.
As I said in my next post after the one you posted, a lot of the errors in HL are the result of user error.
That is one of the reasons I don't let new players use HL in my games. But the biggest reason is I had 2 new players join up who were friends with a guy who used HL. He made their characters in HL and for 2 years those guys never bothered to crack a book to look at options, learn rules, or figure out where their own characters were going. Pathfinder has a steep learning curve but it isn't 2 years long. When we wrapped that campaign and started something new I sat down with them and hard print books and it was amazing how quickly their gameplay improved. HL is a tool, but you have to know what you what to build before you use a tool. You can't take a nailgun to a pile of wood and just look for places to stick the nails. Not if you want to build a house anyway.
Basically, my rule is players must be rules proficient or have a hand-filled character sheet. It has made my games leaps and bound better. For what it's worth, in the 2 games I run 8 of 11 players use HL on ipad for their c-sheets. It is no problem for me, but I have copies of their characters and I audit them.
I've seen people willfully ignore HL's restrictions and build illegal characters. I've also heard of people who think that having the HL license means you have access to that source material.
The first sentence is a feature not a bug. The second sentence is PFS related, so I really don't care. It certainly doesn't weigh into how I feel about HL.
I am not, however, denying that HL has some bugs. I will also admit that the bugs have gotten worse since the ACG was added. I will say, though, that the team is very quick to respond to any bug reports and fix them.
Herolab has lots and lots of bugs. I find them all the time. About half the reports I send to them get updated quickly, the other half get completely ignored. There are more issues still that aren't bugs but simply "yet to be implemented features" from such recently printed books like say.... the frakking Core Rule Book. Beyond that HL has serious problems handling complex builds. Multiclassing with classes whose class features should stack is flat out going to give you problems. I don't care what the combo is, it is more likely to bork up than get it correct. Size increases are a joke. Multiple size increases and you just need to figure it by hand and write it in after you print it.
All that said, it is still a useful tool. I use it all the time. But I literally laugh out loud when people begin to extoll the virtues of the magnificent Herolab like it's the best thing since Jesus, Santa, and Duran Duran did a comeback tour and champagne rained down from the heavens.
Protip: someone is too green to use Herolab if they call it "Herolabs."
However, since this is the rules forum, and HL is an officially sanctioned product, it is a house rule.Herolab isn't a rules source. Anytime someone says 'herolab lets me do it' I ask what the actual rules say. 'sanctioned' doesn't change that.
As far as a house-rule: I don't see the rejection a non-paizo product a house-rule.
It's not about using Hero Lab as an official source; it's about using Hero Lab as a tool to create and manage characters.
Outside of PFS, GMs are free to restrict whatever tools they want. Since Hero Lab is an officially-sanctioned product, PFS GMs have to be reasonable.
Whatever tools the players use to build and manage characters, there will be mistakes. How do we deal with them?
If someone builds a spreadsheet to calculate their ability scores, modifiers, and attack and damage modifiers, and we find there are mistakes in it, should we say that no players should ever use spreadsheets to calculate modifiers?
If a player builds a character by hand, and they make a mistake, do we just not that player build a character again, or just not let them play?
Most Hero Lab errors I've seen have been configuration issues or user error. Some have been actual bugs--which is why I always recommend that people verify the numbers, submit bugs when they find them, and use one of the custom adjustment packages to override these bugs until they get fixed.
It isn't a matter of mistakes because the kind of characters a new player will build Herolab can handle pretty well. There may be a +1/-1 off here or there but that is going to happen no matter how you build your c-sheet.
I'm more concerned with new gamers not learning the game because they are MMO character building rather than figuring it out. These are the same players whose turns take twice as long and have a hard time figuring out where and when to apply modifiers like Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, or heaven help us if they pick up a weapon not on the sheet.
It is my experience that when players learn the game first then Herolab is a very good supplement to the character creation process, but when players use Herolab to learn the game you wind up with players who don't know the game.
However, since this is the rules forum, and HL is an officially sanctioned product, it is a house rule.Herolab isn't a rules source. Anytime someone says 'herolab lets me do it' I ask what the actual rules say. 'sanctioned' doesn't change that.
As far as a house-rule: I don't see the rejection a non-paizo product a house-rule.
It's not about using Hero Lab as an official source; it's about using Hero Lab as a tool to create and manage characters.
Outside of PFS, GMs are free to restrict whatever tools they want. Since Hero Lab is an officially-sanctioned product, PFS GMs have to be reasonable.
Take note of the part I quoted. It IS about using Hero Lab as an official source. Note how he says this is a rules forum and NOT using Herolab would be a house-rule to not allow it in a home game.
You can feel anyway you wish to about Herolab, but it's NOT a paizo product and isn't a rules source. Myself, I found plenty of errors and I don't care what form they show up as.
As to what tools to use, I'd prefer it done by hand. That way, when I ask how a bonus ended up this number, they know why. Not 'I hit the button and it spit out this number'. Errors can still happen but it's easier to find if you know how it came to be.
Pretty much this. It can take a good bit of time to track down where an error comes from. I found a bug in the Oracle wood bond mystery that was giving +x to hit and +x to damage. I couldn't figure out where the extra damage was coming from. The dialog box said "untyped bonus." Well thanks. I just started taking stuff off until the damage went away.
This was some 3 years after the APG was realeased. How many people played an Oracle with wood bond mystery and just assumed HL did the math right? How many of them would have argued their character was correct on an audit? How many of them would have said, "I have XYZ# of characters I built in HL and none of them have any issues" ?
Just food for thought.
Herolab is a fantastic resource that is capable of handling extremely complex builds very well indeed, contrary to some of the opinions being offered here. Yes, you have to learn how to use it. Yes, it sometimes requires tweaking. Yes, it makes (relatively few, actually) mistakes. But used properly it is invaluable and is likely to produce far fewer mistakes, in most cases, than freehand pen and paper. To be honest, considering the complexity of PF at this point, I think it's practically a crime that Paizo doesn't endorse HL (or offer some similar service) and include a download of it with every Core Rulebook. I wouldn't even play without it as this point.
You have your opinion, I have mine (it causes more problems than it solves in every experience I've had with it).
Either way I think we can all agree this discussion ENDED OVER A YEAR AGO and didn't need to be continued.