Something like this has existed since 3.5
Half-Elf bard with high CHA could easily reach +19 Diplomacy by 2nd level, allowing a 95% chance of moving a Hostile opponent to Unfriendly, allowing them to talk that rampaging group of Orcs into their best friends that would give them their weapons and horses with just a few minutes of conversation.
It was called the Jedi Mind Trick.
Did you include the -1 Cha penalty? Since Guileful Lore only adds Wis, not replaces Cha.
That's what the Charm of Wisdom is for. It replaces the Charisma with Wisdom.
Double dipping stat + same stat is questionable, as it appears to be stacking from the same source.
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Breaking News: If a whole bunch of feats, traits, and class abilities are put into a class skill that uses an ability score that you've pumped up, that check is going to be ludicrously high. Full story at 11. Now to you with the weather, Tom.
Indeed, wis mod once.
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Even allowing the two sources of +Wis to stack, you've counted it three times.
Also, if you're playing on Golarion, Illuminator requires you to be a worshipper of Sarenrae, so you couldn't have it as a follower of Abadar. Remember that d20pfsrd strips the Golarion-specific bits out of their listings so sometimes there are things not included.
So without triple-dipping Wisdom and not having the trait taht's illegal for your religion, you get:
1 rank
+3 class skill
+5 Wis, Charm of Wisdom
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Persuasive
+5 Wis, Guileful Lore
+2 Silver Tongued
for a total of +21. Still respectable at level 1, and you almost certainly could find a legal trait to add another +1 to it. You'll be very convincing when you have time to talk to things before they jump you.
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so wait
if I make every aspect of my build focus on building up one thing
I can do that one thing really really well?
... :O
mind
blown
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Me no comprende talky person.... I attack 1d20+666
I only speak two languages
Commonand bad Common
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Hmm's right about Illuminator, bringing your build down to 26. RAW, you can add wisdom twice, GM might not agree. Now there are a couple of other things you're forgetting.
1. You can only use Inspired once a day.
2. Using Diplomacy takes a minute, or 10 rounds. A hostile creature only needs 1 round to attack you.
3. To be able to use Diplomacy the target must share a language with you and must be able to pay attention to what you're saying. Hostile creatures tend to be to occupied with other stuff, like shanking you.
4. Congratulations, you made a build aimed at Diplomacy. You suck at combat though, have fun!
Pretty sure the Street Performer Bard is much more ridiculous with this.
You can do this. I have no idea why you would want to though. Yes, diplomacy is an important and useful skill in kingmaker, but it isn't important enough to make an entire character around it and you can pretty much assume that either your DM won't allow you to just befriend anyone who is a threat or that your character will make the campaign end because it is boring.
By all means if you are going to be the groups face have a reasonable diplomacy score. But make a character that will be playable and fun.
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Even if you can stack the wisdom modifier twice (which I think you can), you've misread Guileful Lore.
"GUILEFUL LORE: She adds her Wisdom modifier on Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks in addition to the normal ability score modifiers. "
This means you add your wisdom modifier once and keep other modifiers. It does not mean you add your wisdom and then the normal again.
So the check is at +23, not +28. Still very good, but not all that broken considering you've sunken every resource into it.
[edit] Ninja'd and it should be +21, apparently.
His normal ability score modifier is wisdom because of his Charm of Wisdom ability from the Conversion Inquisition he took in place of a domain. So yeah, RAW he'd get a wisdom bonus twice instead of charisma. He also has a -1 on attack rolls, so good for him.
All of that will go away pretty quick once he falls though. I mean come on, an Infiltrator following a Lawful deity? That's setting yourself up to fall.|
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Yeah, actually Kingmaker is not really the best place to "break" things with an uber Diplo score. This type of build would be much more effective in adventures that have a "make NPCs your friends" component, such as Serpent's Skull, Jade Regent, or Skull&Shackles.
Skull&Shackles spoilers:
Diplomacy isn't that mighty. Takes a minute of chat + will not work against those that mean you harm. Having a high score is worthwhile but is no good for combat, hostilities and under time pressure
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Diplomacy isn't that mighty. Takes a minute of chat + will not work against those that mean you harm. Having a high score is worthwhile but is no good for combat, hostilities and under time pressure
Using diplomacy on someone who is hostile has a DC of 25.
Making a request is a 1 round action: this would include requesting the chance to talk.
Influence Attitude: Using Diplomacy to influence a creature’s attitude takes 1 minute of continuous interaction.
Make Request: Making a request of a creature takes 1 or more rounds of interaction, depending upon the complexity of the request.
1 or more rounds may be to many. But yes, RAW diplomacy has always been broken, but it leaves a lot of room for GM fiat as well.
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Diplomacy isn't that mighty. Takes a minute of chat + will not work against those that mean you harm. Having a high score is worthwhile but is no good for combat, hostilities and under time pressureUsing diplomacy on someone who is hostile has a DC of 25.
Making a request is a 1 round action: this would include requesting the chance to talk.
If a creature's attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature.
No requests for hostiles; gotta make them at least indifferent first. And that requires 1+ minutes of interaction.
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Even at +21 you have over optimized for diplomacy at level one. You should expect the target DCs for your level one challenges to be somewhere between 12 and 15. A +11 should pretty much ensure that you succeed as much as you'll need to. You should focus the balance of your build making your character good at some other things.
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Diplo as stated only works if they understand you. Im a nasty and mean GM who owns 6 hippopotamus figures.Diplo does not work on a herd of irate hippos
Diplomacy isn't that mighty. Takes a minute of chat + will not work against those that mean you harm. Having a high score is worthwhile but is no good for combat, hostilities and under time pressureUsing diplomacy on someone who is hostile has a DC of 25.
Making a request is a 1 round action: this would include requesting the chance to talk.
If a creature's attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature.No requests for hostiles; gotta make them at least indifferent first. And that requires 1+ minutes of interaction.
Jiggy is right here, so if you manage to survive 10 rounds of combat without attacking them (i am not sure if you can use total defense though) in order to use your jedi mind tricks then go with it.
Diplo as stated only works if they understand you. Im a nasty and mean GM who owns 6 hippopotamus figures.Diplo does not work on a herd of irate hippos
So he only needs to get speak with animals? Easy peasy.
Diplo as stated only works if they understand you. Im a nasty and mean GM who owns 6 hippopotamus figures.Diplo does not work on a herd of irate hipposSo he only needs to get speak with animals? Easy peasy.
He'd need to be a druid, actually. From Wild Empathy's wording and the fact that it exists, you usually need Handle Animal to deal with animals, not Diplomacy, speak with animals or no.
Keep in mind that while rolls are abstract, you'd really need to be saying things they agreed with due to their natures and cultures.
If the NPCs are evil, and your party is not, this is actually a bluff check instead.
Unless you were sincere in saying they should spare your lives so you can leave the town gates open for the orc tribe to perform a midnight raid.
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If a debtor thinks he don't need to pay his dues to the Golarion Union of Murderhoboes for the Betterment of Others just because he's become my best friend in the world, then it would truly pain me to show him what happened to the last fella who held that esteemed position, Jimmy "not Jimbo" Hoffa.
Sincerely,
~Jaspar "Shank Him Louis" Kahrdboordebachs~
your local GUMBO representative
Even at +21 you have over optimized for diplomacy at level one. You should expect the target DCs for your level one challenges to be somewhere between 12 and 15. A +11 should pretty much ensure that you succeed as much as you'll need to. You should focus the balance of your build making your character good at some other things.
Not necessarily so. Some APs out there do have very high skill DCs at very early levels just for those people. They even have language like "even though it's very unlikely for the PCs to succeed, if they can do a DC blah blah blah" and often give very nifty insights or even XP to those who can pull it off.
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Good to remember: "Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future."
So, using Diplomacy against a creature determined to kill you is pretty much useless. At best you'll earn their respect and they'll weep quietly after they've killed you. :D
Good to remember: "Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future."
I believe this is a short-hand version of what I was trying to imply in my prior post.
Unless some kind of Marvel Comics style misunderstanding has taken place, if they are trying to kill your party, you'd have to basically be offering to change sides to 'team evil' for a diplomacy check to work.
Otherwise you'd be lying, and need a bluff check instead.
We already have a FAQ request for this at over 140 hits
I don't really think you have to be evil to convince an evil guy not to kill you. You might just convince the guy "Hey let us come and take your leader away in shackles and if you testify against him in court and take up an honest living we won't have to put you away/ kill you as well." It's something agreeable to both parties.
Certainly, but without special circumstances, you might be looking at a DC in the 50s or 60s, since you are stacking up so many negative modifiers. That would be a legendary talking down indeed!
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Diplomacy still takes a minute to attempt to use.
That's 10 rounds of rampaging hostile attacks while you're doing nothing but sweet talking.
Also keep in mind that Diplomacy works both ways. Your amazing bonuses won't scale as impressively when the NPC uses diplomacy on you to force you to be friendly towards his own goals.
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heh not like it matters, much the dc to use it in combat is so high and the fact it would require at least 1 minute (10 rounds) you are better off using your standard actions to fight.
In 3.5 there was an option to do a rushed check at -20 diplomacy but it has been removed from the pfrpg...so yeah you have to talk with the enemy for 1 minute to even do anything. While they can freely just attack you and use their full round actions for something else.
There are some archetypes/class features which allow you to use diplomacy in one round but right now, I'm forgetting what they are.
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heh not like it matters, much the dc to use it in combat is so high and the fact it would require at least 1 minute (10 rounds) you are better off using your standard actions to fight.
In 3.5 there was an option to do a rushed check at -20 diplomacy but it has been removed from the pfrpg...so yeah you have to talk with the enemy for 1 minute to even do anything. While they can freely just attack you and use their full round actions for something else.
There are some archetypes/class features which allow you to use diplomacy in one round but right now, I'm forgetting what they are.
One can use Intimidate rather than Diplomacy as a standard action to force an attitude adjustment, so that's possible in combat. (but comes with the drawback about reverting attitude) Not sure why I thought that. It's not true.
There's also Rogue talents that make in-combat and/or diplomacy as a standard action possible, as well. But "everyone knows" rogues suck and thus aren't relevant to a discussion about what's broken in a good way :)