Shrink item and the whole swallow / explode option

[What's in the box?]

I have a question: While I LOVE the idea of the whole get someone to swallow the shrunk item and then de-shrunk it to kill them... I mean... seriously I LOVE it. Is there a restriction on that? Like do you have to have strength check or something? And the save for the spell is for the object which would then be inside the "victim"

Maybe it would be easier with a scenario:

My (beautiful) sorceress has defeated a kraken and uses shrink item to turn the Gargantuan corpse into something easier to carry in her bag of holding (because... whatever, trophies or whatnot).

She comes across this SUPER rude Halfling cleric of Irori (because that guy would be a TOTAL douche) and he insults her and her magic and the fact that her boots don't match her robes or whathave you. So later she finds out he is staying at the tavern and Charm Persons the waitress to recommend the Squid Salad where she uses a portion of the kraken to form a delicate and tasty dish that is both posh enough and exotic enough to appeal to the prude.

After he eats it she confronts him, insults his mother's lack of contraception AND parenting skills and then speaks the command word to deshrink the kraken. So question time:

A)Would the kraken bits retain their magical shrunkeness after being sliced and (possibly) heated and then chewed?

B) Would the kraken bits be able to effectively hear the command word from inside the Halfling?

C) Would the kraken corpse that was not used in the salad be unshrunk (assuming B is ok)? Would it matter if they were in the bag of holding or not?

D) Is this Halfling a-hole allowed a save for this? *note that he has willingly consumed everything and under the impression that his body can withstand anything... the jerk!*

E) I am somewhat aware of the impracticality of the kraken size and the Halfling as well. I am positing the scenario more in the realm of possibility than in something that I plan to ACTUALLY happen. So if Chuul corpses and Dwarves make more sense then allow for the appropriate changes.

F) This question does not reflect the person opinion of WitB with regards to the inferiority (perceived or legitimate) or halflings or other creatures of the "small" size designation. Such similarities are purely coincidental.

I appreciate your assistance in this manner. I read several threads using Boulders that were shrunk and then applying Telekinesis and usually there was a mention of this instance in them, but I would like some qualifiers before attempting to claim revenge for Irorian/Halfling slights!!!

[blahpers]

A) There's a general class of undefined behavior here, namely what happens when an enspelled object is divided into multiple objects. No idea.
B) There's no mention of the object having to "hear" the command word, only that the command word must be spoken.
C) See A.
D) No, but it's unclear whether this would result in the behavior you want, especially since the object would have been slightly digested by that point. The rules just don't cover that sort of thing.
E) Not a question.
F) Not a question.

Sorry I couldn't answer more definitively!

[Claxon]

I think this squarely up to the GM.

I would tell you sorry it doesn't work. At best, I would have it function like enlarge person in that:

Quote:

If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.

So, it might make him vomit, or be very uncomfortably full. But it wont hurt him in any meaningful way.

I just don't think the spell was meant to be used in this way, and I wouldn't allow it.

[What's in the box?]

Claxon wrote:

I think this squarely up to the GM.

I would tell you sorry it doesn't work. At best, I would have it function like enlarge person in that:

Quote:

If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.

So, it might make him vomit, or be very uncomfortably full. But it wont hurt him in any meaningful way.

I just don't think the spell was meant to be used in this way, and I wouldn't allow it.

I have seen posts where the "I would use the Enlarge Person rules" have come into play. I could see that being understood in a RAI sort of way but that is specifically a caveat for Enlarge Person (telling those darned transmuters you can't grow someone to death just to impracticality)... The kraken use above is honestly the FIRST place my mind goes when I read: "Shrink things and then have them expand again" I think: Have it expand inside of them! As this would be the only method available to spellcasters to do this (since conjuration spells prohibit this :()

But I appreciate your input :)

[Claxon]

What's in the box? wrote:

The kraken use above is honestly the FIRST place my mind goes when I read: "Shrink things and then have them expand again" I think: Have it expand inside of them! As this would be the only method available to spellcasters to do this (since conjuration spells prohibit this :()

But I appreciate your input :)

But that's my point. Virtually every other type of magic where you expect to encounter this problem (trying to summon a creature into another creature, or make them too large for a space, etc) all directly prohibit causing damage to creatures in this way. It's simply not allowed.

While you may think of forcing someone to ingest a shruken item and using it to harm them, I doubt that was the thought process behind the spell whenever it was written (and that was years ago, I'm not even sure which system it was introduced in.)

[Kayerloth]

I want to say Unearthed Arcana is where this spell first appeared.

And I'm with Claxon (as much fun a getting someone to swallow the worlds largest caltrop or an iceberg turned icecube might be) you can't use it in this manner. Along with Claxon's thoughts I'd say you probably need (and don't have) Line of Effect to the Item while it is inside Mr. Rude in order to use the command word to have it return to normal size (but I'm unsure of RAW vs RAI vs -- with regards to that aspect).

[What's in the box?]

Kayerloth wrote:

I want to say Unearthed Arcana is where this spell first appeared.

And I'm with Claxon (as much fun a getting someone to swallow the worlds largest caltrop or an iceberg turned icecube might be) you can't use it in this manner. Along with Claxon's thoughts I'd say you probably need (and don't have) Line of Effect to the Item while it is inside Mr. Rude in order to use the command word to have it return to normal size (but I'm unsure of RAW vs RAI vs -- with regards to that aspect).

Ok... New plan... My sorceress prevents the DM/GM from EVER seeing this thread and goes about on a Kraken-salad-murder spree until the DM/GM says she can't :)

Also, for 3rd party people out there. FIND A SPELL TO MAKE THINGS APPEAR INSIDE SOMEONE!!! A la assassin magic. Can't believe someone hasn't figured this out yet. (Or make rules to allow for THIS spell a chance) :) Thank you.

[Blindmage]

The shrunken item would have hardness and hp and digestion could be doing damage to it...

[Claxon]

What's in the box? wrote:

Ok... New plan... My sorceress prevents the DM/GM from EVER seeing this thread and goes about on a Kraken-salad-murder spree until the DM/GM says she can't :)

That's very disingenuous and dishonest of you. If you want to do this ask your GM how he feels about it, and don't omit that you've already researched it some and people are against it. He may still decide to allow you to do it, but being less than honest about something with your GM is a bad policy.

[Zedth]

He was clearly joking Clax...

[Kayerloth]

Blindmage wrote:

The shrunken item would have hardness and hp and digestion could be doing damage to it...

What's in the box? wrote:

Also, for 3rd party people out there. FIND A SPELL TO MAKE THINGS APPEAR INSIDE SOMEONE!!! A la assassin magic. Can't believe someone hasn't figured this out yet. (Or make rules to allow for THIS spell a chance) :) Thank you.

Oh well that's a bit easier. While you can't use the object to squeeze them to death from the inside out nothing says the object can't be harmful in and of itself. Take a poison pill or substance the size of say roughly a pea. Shrink it to 1/4000th of its original size and it should be much harder to detect (see, smell, taste) (without magic) than at normal size. Even if you don't use a command word the spell only has a duration of 1/day per level. You can always cast it at the minimum or 5 days in this case and, of course, wait for several days prior to feeding them the pill. Spells can be further used to mask the aura from Shrink Item if you want to avoid magical detection (Nondetection, Misdirection etc.)

.

[Scott Wilhelm]

So what about a more mundane shrink/blowup option?

Say you have a Tree Quaal's Feather Token, and you are swallowed whole by a Froghemoth, and you turn the Token into a Tree while inside?

Or, how about a Decanter of Endless Water set to Geyser inside the Monster's belly.

I think I know what an Instant Fortress would do.

I'm sure that was not the intent of the creator of the Bag of Holding, but I was in a party where one of the character was swallowed whole, and he escaped by emptying out the thousands of pounds of contents inside the beastie's belly. He was disgorged.

[Kayerloth]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So what about a more mundane shrink/blowup option?

Say you have a Tree Quaal's Feather Token, and you are swallowed whole by a Froghemoth, and you turn the Token into a Tree while inside?

Or, how about a Decanter of Endless Water set to Geyser inside the Monster's belly.

I think I know what an Instant Fortress would do.

I'm sure that was not the intent of the creator of the Bag of Holding, but I was in a party where one of the character was swallowed whole, and he escaped by emptying out the thousands of pounds of contents inside the beastie's belly. He was disgorged.

All of which points right back at Claxon's first line of his first post in the thread ...

Quote:

I think this squarely up to the GM.

[whew]

Once an item is swallowed, you no longer have line of effect to it, so you can't make it do anything.

[Kayerloth]

whew wrote:

Once an item is swallowed, you no longer have line of effect to it, so you can't make it do anything.

Assuming you aren't in there with it of course.

[Avadriel]

the spell allows you to shrink campfires, so this should work. Carve a wooden tankard or other drinking vessel 2 size categories larger than the intended victim, fill it with water, shrink it. WHen the victim drinks the water in the container, you can speak the command word to have the water return to its original volume. Since there is insufficient space in the victim they spend time with water streaming from mouth and nose.

[Inviktus]

In the film "Fantastic Voyage" an entire shrunk nuclear powered submarine is left inside the patient, whom appears to suffer no harm when the shrinking duration expires...

[Byakko]

This is the sort of thing best left to the GM to adjudicate. The rules can't cover everything, after all. ;)

I would go with the "expands to the extent allowed by the containing area", personally. So major indigestion, but that's about it.

Alternatively, try dropping a squid tentacle on him from a great height, then unshrink it on the way down. :)

[Crozekiel]

The reference to enlarge person eludes to the fact that the target of the magic can't be harmed by it, but it also clearly states the thing confining its growth could be harmed. (if the target of the spell makes its strength check, it would break out of whatever is limiting its growth, I would say that definitely would cause harm)

That being said, the argument that the spell isn't designed to be able to inflict damage is a pretty good argument. I have had DMs that are very anal about that, and I have had DMs that let players be creative with things and let that stuff work if players find a way.

What spell are we talking about using here? Is it Shrink Item? It has a duration, so saying "you don't have line of effect" doesn't really end the discussion, since it will expand to normal size after a certain amount of time. Although, it says they turn back if tossed onto any solid surface, so I am not sure if that means if you drop the item on accident, does it turn back to normal size? That makes it difficult to prepare into a meal, but does open the door for hilarity when you try and sneak an item out by making it big and it falls out of your pouch right in front of the person you are stealing from...