Building a Gunslinger, Need Help


Advice


So in a game we are playing the GM, for the sake of simplicity, disallowed archetypes, traits, and such at first. Then near the end of the first game one of the characters died and after talking with the player, he appears to have lifted the restrictions, he says that he is pretty much fine with anything on the PRD.

So after seeing the much-more-beefy-than-me guy die i figure i should probably have some kind of backup in mind incase my current character (a kitsune sorcerer) dies on me. I figure that a kitsune gunslinger would be fun. (im kinda stuck on this race, dunno why but i love shapechangers and i dont know many others in pathfinder.) So i am thinking Mysterious Stranger archetype, but at the same time i heard that is bad for some reason? and then i keep hearing people talking about it and pistolero? sadly i havent been able to make much sense of the grand total of 3 gunslinger guides out there. so can anybody please help me?

Sovereign Court

Mysterious Stranger is great for races with charisma bonuses, despite what people would tell you about it. The problem with Mysterious stranger, you'll need to invest into making your gun Reliable (so reliable gun+1 is pretty expensive) since you lose Quick Clear. An important Gunslinger mechanic to avoid situation where your gun get jammed basically.

But this is where a lot of fun comes in...as a gunslinger you are proficient with all martial weapons, you have a full bab, so frankly there is no reason to not have a backup archaic weapon (Greatsword, Scimitar, Earthbreaker, Falchion etc...) take your pick, especially in early levels, power attack + 2 handed weapons is still one of the best way to dispatch your enemies.


Eltacolibre wrote:

Mysterious Stranger is great for races with charisma bonuses, despite what people would tell you about it. The problem with Mysterious stranger, you'll need to invest into making your gun Reliable (so reliable gun+1 is pretty expensive) since you lose Quick Clear. An important Gunslinger mechanic to avoid situation where your gun get jammed basically.

But this is where a lot of fun comes in...as a gunslinger you are proficient with all martial weapons, you have a full bab, so frankly there is no reason to not have a backup archaic weapon (Greatsword, Scimitar, Earthbreaker, Falchion etc...) take your pick, especially in early levels, power attack + 2 handed weapons is still one of the best way to dispatch your enemies.

So i would like to know, are gunslingers extremely feat-heavy? if i had some leftover feats to use on something i am thinking of that would be nice but if it cant happen i can understand

Sovereign Court

Not really, frankly its the same standard long range feats stuff:

-Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot. Quick Draw is thematic of course but well, considering how easy it is to have a weapon in hand with +1 Bab, can be skipped.


This may be a bit beyond what you were looking for, but you could consider going Trench Fighter 3 and then into Mysterious Stranger. If you do that you can also take the feat Ameuteur Gunslinger to get Quick Clear, which Mysterious Stranger trades, and choose not to upgrade the feat into Extra Grit as per its special rules when you go Gunslinger.

That would get you Quick Clear, dex to damage, and swift action charisma to damage, and some fighter bonus feats.


Eltacolibre wrote:

Not really, frankly its the same standard long range feats stuff:

-Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot. Quick Draw is thematic of course but well, considering how easy it is to have a weapon in hand with +1 Bab, can be skipped.

The DM actually has decided that everyone gets quick draw for free, because as he said "It does not take an entire round to draw your weapon"


There is nothing wrong with the mysterious stranger but they miss out on the level 5 bonus to damage of some other archetypes because they don't get musket or pistol training which provide a similar effect to 'focused aim' for every shot without needing grit.* And now we come to grit, grit is simultaneously the most annoying and powerful part of gunslinging - you need to keep one point of grit for some deeds, and you can never regain a point of grit when you need it, but using grit makes you shots much more powerful; my Rules For Grit Use are don't assume you will have grit, never spend the last point even for a 'sure' kill which will recover a point, spend one point ASAP so it can be recovered on a crit (which only seem to happen when you have full grit) and spend the middle points when you have a decent chance of a kill shot or need the extra damage.

Feats:
rapid reload is essential, without it a gunslinger cannot function well. The reloading rules are scattered under the firearms rules, rapid reload feat description and the description of alchemical cartridges but reloading a 1handed firearm

  • base = standard action
  • alchemical cartridge without rapid reload feat = move action
  • rapid reload without alchemical cartridge = move action
  • rapid reload & alchemical cartridge = free action
A musket master can reload a 2H firearm as a 1H firearm, so if you want to use a 2H firearms take a musket master, otherwise reloading takes at a minimum a move action.

rapid shot is pretty powerful, allowing the gunslinger to make an extra attack on a full attack action for -2 to hit on all attacks. Since without this feat a level 1-5 gunslinger usually only gets 1 attack (and a level 20 only gets 4) the advantage is obvious. The feat has a requirement that the point blank shot feat be taken first, and it isn't a bad feat. +1 to hit & damage within 30' when almost all your attacks will be within 30' is not to be sneered at.

precise shot is an iffy one for me. A major point of gunslingers is that they have a really good chance to hit, and precise shot only improves hit chance. but it is a big improvement to hit chance, effectively +4 because the vast majority of time you will be firing into melee.

At level 11 signature deed becomes available and should be taken - it is that powerful. A mysterious stranger can take focused fire as their signature deed and add CHR to every shot for free.

Do not forget that gunslingers get bonus feats at level 4,8,12,16&20.

*stranger's fortune has been rewritten so that mysterious strangers get gun training 2 at level 9 (they never got it before), but this is still DEX to damage while the archetype is CHR focused. this rewrite allows higher level mysterious strangers to remain competitive and tells why the mysterious stranger was considered weak.


This sounds pretty good, does anybody else have any suggestions?


The Gunslinger makes a joke out of martial/caster disparity. Deeds function much like spells, and the gunslinger himself is by far superior to the fighter/other mundane martials because of it.

It is also an extremely marginal class. Only stats that matter are DEX and WIS. Switching to Mysterious Stranger could have RP value as a kitsune because of shapeshift.

Point Blank and Precise Shot are all but necessary. Deadly Aim is solid because of gun mechanics. Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot are also staples.

That's five feats, so it is pretty feat starved.


master_marshmallow wrote:

The Gunslinger makes a joke out of martial/caster disparity. Deeds function much like spells, and the gunslinger himself is by far superior to the fighter/other mundane martials because of it.

It is also an extremely marginal class. Only stats that matter are DEX and WIS. Switching to Mysterious Stranger could have RP value as a kitsune because of shapeshift.

Point Blank and Precise Shot are all but necessary. Deadly Aim is solid because of gun mechanics. Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot are also staples.

That's five feats, so it is pretty feat starved.

You gain 4 bonus feats on top of the normal 10 though


So nobody has any other suggestions to help?


Really with the way campaigns work it is best to build one (taking the essential feats) and see what you can do with what is happening. For example the far shot feat is great if you do a lot of outdoor adventuring where combat starts with opponents 500' away, but is almost useless if most combats are the party opening a door in dungeons. One of the problems may be that, as a kitsune, you have access to the magical tail feat which can be pretty powerful. After the 5 feats Marshmallow mentions & signature deed feat, feats are pretty much open to fit your individual needs because with those you have the core of the class covered.

I do think that one of the best enchants a gunslinger can get is distance and that the beneficial bandolier is pretty poor.


cnetarian wrote:

Really with the way campaigns work it is best to build one (taking the essential feats) and see what you can do with what is happening. For example the far shot feat is great if you do a lot of outdoor adventuring where combat starts with opponents 500' away, but is almost useless if most combats are the party opening a door in dungeons. One of the problems may be that, as a kitsune, you have access to the magical tail feat which can be pretty powerful. After the 5 feats Marshmallow mentions & signature deed feat, feats are pretty much open to fit your individual needs because with those you have the core of the class covered.

I do think that one of the best enchants a gunslinger can get is distance and that the beneficial bandolier is pretty poor.

i was hoping personally to be able to use 8 feats on Magical Tail because i really love the flavor of the feat, and from what i can tell the abilities are nothing to sneeze at, especially being charisma based on my Mysterious Stranger gunslinger


Maybe i can use the last feat on Realistic Likeness! :D


OK how does this sound?

Build #1 (If the DM allows Trench Fighter):

Kitsune Mysterious Stranger (Gunslinger) / Trench Fighter (Fighter)

Gunslinger Level 1: Gunsmithing (Bonus), Quick Draw (Free), Rapid Reload
Gunslinger Level 2: None
Gunslinger Level 3: Realistic Likeness
Gunslinger Level 4: Point Blank Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 5: Magical Tail (Disguise Self)
Fighter Level 6: Precise Shot (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Fighter Level 7: Magical Tail (Charm Person), Deadly Aim (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Fighter Level 8: None
Gunslinger Level 9: Magical Tail (Misdirection)
Gunslinger Level 10: None
Gunslinger Level 11: Magical Tail (Invisibility), Precise Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 12: None
Gunslinger Level 13: Magical Tail (Suggestion)
Gunslinger Level 14: None
Gunslinger Level 15: Magical Tail (Displacement), Signature Deed (Focused Aim) (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 16: None
Gunslinger Level 17: Magical Tail (Confusion)
Gunslinger Level 18: None
Gunslinger Level 19: Magical Tail (Dominate Person), Rapid Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 20: None


Build #2 (If the DM disallows Trench Fighter):

Kitsune Mysterious Stranger (Gunslinger) / Fighter
Gunslinger Level 1: Gunsmithing (Bonus), Quick Draw (Free), Rapid Reload
Gunslinger Level 2: None
Gunslinger Level 3: Realistic Likeness
Gunslinger Level 4: Point Blank Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 5: Magical Tail (Disguise Self)
Fighter Level 6: Precise Shot (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Fighter Level 7: Magical Tail (Charm Person), Deadly Aim (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 8: None
Gunslinger Level 9: Magical Tail (Misdirection)
Gunslinger Level 10: Precise Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 11: Magical Tail (Invisibility)
Gunslinger Level 12: None
Gunslinger Level 13: Magical Tail (Suggestion)
Gunslinger Level 14: Signature Deed (Focused Aim) (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 15: Magical Tail (Displacement)
Gunslinger Level 16: None
Gunslinger Level 17: Magical Tail (Confusion)
Gunslinger Level 18: Rapid Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 19: Magical Tail (Dominate Person)
Gunslinger Level 20: None

If i made some kind of mistake i am sorry, i havent done a full 1-20 build like this before, usually build them as we go


Did this last post maybe just get shoved down so fast no one saw it?


Hazrond wrote:

OK how does this sound?

Build #2 (If the DM disallows Trench Fighter)::

Kitsune Mysterious Stranger (Gunslinger) / Fighter
Gunslinger Level 1: Gunsmithing (Bonus), Quick Draw (Free), Rapid Reload
Gunslinger Level 2: None
Gunslinger Level 3: Realistic Likeness
Gunslinger Level 4: Point Blank Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 5: Magical Tail (Disguise Self)
Fighter Level 6: Precise Shot (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Fighter Level 7: Magical Tail (Charm Person), Deadly Aim (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 8: None
Gunslinger Level 9: Magical Tail (Misdirection)
Gunslinger Level 10: Precise Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 11: Magical Tail (Invisibility)
Gunslinger Level 12: None
Gunslinger Level 13: Magical Tail (Suggestion)
Gunslinger Level 14: Signature Deed (Focused Aim) (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 15: Magical Tail (Displacement)
Gunslinger Level 16: None
Gunslinger Level 17: Magical Tail (Confusion)
Gunslinger Level 18: Rapid Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 19: Magical Tail (Dominate Person)
Gunslinger Level 20: None

Possibly i could just replace those two levels of fighter with more gunslinger, i would lose one feat but is rapid shot really that necessary?


You're going to be hurting for damage by taking Deadly Aim so late, especially if you are going to go with Mysterious Stranger. Mysterious Stranger looses gun training which is a very big ability for Gunslingers and can only gain it through spending grit and a swift action. So until lvl 11, when you can pick up Signature Deed to reduce the cost of it to just a swift action so long as you have grit, you need Deadly Aim to deal consistent damage. Don't worry about the loss to BAB because you're hitting against touch AC so you should still hit fairly easily unless you are fighting something with high Dex.

The good thing about Mysterious stranger is that they eventually don't even have to worry about miss-fires.

Have you thought about mixing Holy Gun Paladin with Mysterious Stranger. You don't need a whole bunch of levels from the paladin, just a few to gain CHA to saves and smite through a gun (costing grit). BUT if you pick up a blunderbuss or shotgun (if your DM allows it) you can smite multiple enemies with one shot with the cone attack , which is really pretty nice. Plus the synergy between classes and the boost to Cha from the Kitsune is very nice.


RavenVoron wrote:

You're going to be hurting for damage by taking Deadly Aim so late, especially if you are going to go with Mysterious Stranger. Mysterious Stranger looses gun training which is a very big ability for Gunslingers and can only gain it through spending grit and a swift action. So until lvl 11, when you can pick up Signature Deed to reduce the cost of it to just a swift action so long as you have grit, you need Deadly Aim to deal consistent damage. Don't worry about the loss to BAB because you're hitting against touch AC so you should still hit fairly easily unless you are fighting something with high Dex.

The good thing about Mysterious stranger is that they eventually don't even have to worry about miss-fires.

Have you thought about mixing Holy Gun Paladin with Mysterious Stranger. You don't need a whole bunch of levels from the paladin, just a few to gain CHA to saves and smite through a gun (costing grit). BUT if you pick up a blunderbuss or shotgun (if your DM allows it) you can smite multiple enemies with one shot with the cone attack , which is really pretty nice. Plus the synergy between classes and the boost to Cha from the Kitsune is very nice.

Actually, they only lose the first level of Gun Training, they still gain it at level 9 and so forth. as for having deadly aim later on, i am not very experienced with the class, this is my first time making one so good to know. :)


Oh... hmmm.... I don't know why I never saw that 1 at the end of gun training. The more you know.

But still, you're going to be out-striped in damage at low-levels without picking up Deadly Aim as soon as possible. And not only that, but even with craft: alchemy, bullets are expensive. It's better to use the least amount as possible to kill something.


RavenVoron wrote:

Oh... hmmm.... I don't know why I never saw that 1 at the end of gun training. The more you know.

But still, you're going to be out-striped in damage at low-levels without picking up Deadly Aim as soon as possible. And not only that, but even with craft: alchemy, bullets are expensive. It's better to use the least amount as possible to kill something.

Sounds good, i can move it to just before Point Blank Shot


Deadly aim doesn't work with touch attacks. So be mindful of it.

Also at lv 7 onwards the full attack, but only shooting one bullet is pretty nifty


RavenVoron wrote:

Oh... hmmm.... I don't know why I never saw that 1 at the end of gun training. The more you know.

Paizo cleaned up some of the wording associated with gunslingers and firearms (I think this spring - new printing of UC?), and changed some of the language so that it is clear that mysterious strangers only lose the first level of gun training.

also note:
"When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim." is the current wording in the PRD.


Yes, but it does work with guns, even within the first range increments of guns. From the PRD:

Range and Penetration: Armor, whether manufactured or natural, provides little protection against the force of a bullet at short range.

Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment. Unlike other projectile weapons, early firearms have a maximum range of five range increments.

Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms resolve their attacks against touch AC when the target is within the first five range increments, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full-range increment. Advanced firearms have a maximum range of 10 range increments.

*EDIT* Ninja'd!!!


Gunslinger/Fighter Build:

Kitsune Mysterious Stranger (Gunslinger) / Fighter
Gunslinger Level 1: Gunsmithing (Bonus), Quick Draw (Free), Rapid Reload
Gunslinger Level 2: None
Gunslinger Level 3: Realistic Likeness
Gunslinger Level 4: Deadly Aim (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 5: Magical Tail (Disguise Self)
Fighter Level 6: Point Blank Shot (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Fighter Level 7: Magical Tail (Charm Person), Precise Shot (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 8: None
Gunslinger Level 9: Magical Tail (Misdirection)
Gunslinger Level 10: Precise Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 11: Magical Tail (Invisibility)
Gunslinger Level 12: None
Gunslinger Level 13: Magical Tail (Suggestion)
Gunslinger Level 14: Signature Deed (Focused Aim) (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 15: Magical Tail (Displacement)
Gunslinger Level 16: None
Gunslinger Level 17: Magical Tail (Confusion)
Gunslinger Level 18: Rapid Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 19: Magical Tail (Dominate Person)
Gunslinger Level 20: None
OR i could go with
Straight Gunslinger Build:

Gunslinger Level 1: Gunsmithing (Bonus), Quick Draw (Free), Rapid Reload
Gunslinger Level 2: None
Gunslinger Level 3: Realistic Likeness
Gunslinger Level 4: Deadly Aim (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 5: Magical Tail (Disguise Self)
Gunslinger Level 6: None
Gunslinger Level 7: Magical Tail (Charm Person)
Gunslinger Level 8: Point Blank Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 9: Magical Tail (Misdirection)
Gunslinger Level 10: None
Gunslinger Level 11: Magical Tail (Invisibility)
Gunslinger Level 12: Precise Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 13: Magical Tail (Suggestion)
Gunslinger Level 14: None
Gunslinger Level 15: Magical Tail (Displacement)
Gunslinger Level 16: Signature Deed (Focused Aim)(Gunslinger Bonus Feat)
Gunslinger Level 17: Magical Tail (Confusion)
Gunslinger Level 18: None
Gunslinger Level 19: Magical Tail (Dominate Person)
Gunslinger Level 20: Rapid Shot (Gunslinger Bonus Feat)

the second build would probably be a bit less of a headache for my GM, and it also gets me the level 20 deeds as well as True Grit, so that is a plus


Hazrond wrote:

** spoiler omitted **OR i could go with

** spoiler omitted **...

Wait a minute... did i take precise shot twice??? *Facepalm*


Well, that could work, but you're not going to get precise strike until late in the game. While you should be firing against touch AC as much as possible, if you have ANY melee fighters at all in the party taking the minus to your BAB from Deadly Aim AND -4 for firing into melee could make you miss a lot more than you are going to like.

You should really take the PBS and Precise Shot feats before Deadly Aim. If you could push the Realistic Likeness and Magic Tail feats back and pick PBS, Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim up first you'll stay relevant in combat. I'd take the first two as soon as you can, possibly before rapid reload (pending on what kind of gun you're using). So it would be PBS at 1st, Precise Shot at 3rd, Rapid reload at 4, and Deadly Aim at 5th.

That being said, if you prefer to go with the roleplaying aspect of the other feats earlier, go ahead. I'm just worried you might be sitting on the sidelines for a long time.


Haha my bad! Ive been building bolt aces and they lack the wordinf that allows them to use deadly aim when they resolve at touch ac


Does anybody have any other suggestions? if not i think i am set


I think it looks pretty good fo ya.
Though maybe carry splash weapons and maybe pellet grenades. Gunslingers have 0 aoe ability. So there are some problems here and there


Zwordsman wrote:

I think it looks pretty good fo ya.

Though maybe carry splash weapons and maybe pellet grenades. Gunslingers have 0 aoe ability. So there are some problems here and there

I figure i can probably leave AOE to the alchemist in the party


Most likely, I just like having something in case. Ive had the aoe guy go down, and some jerk aummoning swarms ( Didnt know, botcheed out perc) gave us amusing problems

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