Mithral Celestial Plate Armor


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Nefreet wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
RAW they are the prices you inquired about earlier

If we assume that Celestial Armor is made of steel, then you'd be correct, and those would be the prices for changing it to Mithral.

But we don't know that, and can't assume that.

Both armors are described using an ambiguous "silver and gold" metal. Although we don't know what it is, it certainly isn't steel.

And therefore, +3700gp and +700gp, are not correct.

You have to determine the base material, and its cost, before you start switching things out. And nobody has ever confirmed what these armors are made of. Until someone does, we've hit a roadblock.

Not to be pernickety but...

Celestial Armour:
This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

Archives of Nethys - Pathfinder PRD

Celestial Plate Armour:
Celestial plate armor is a sturdier version of the standard celestial armor. This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

Archives of Nethys - Pathfinder PRD (N/A)

They removed the reference to the "bright silver or gold" in Ultimate Equipment. The Core Rulebook still has that reference, but the more recent books do not. The Celestial Plate Armour does describe the suit as "bright silver", but it doesn't specify that it's made of silver, just that that is how it appears. That could be an effect of the magic, indicating its use (a lighter, Mithral - like magical enhancement), or just flavour text.

However, I do agree 3,700gp and 700gp are incorrect. The armour would have to be made before the enhancement could be applied to it, and so would not benefit from the lower costs of the lighter armours.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Despite what Master Marshmellow is suggesting, it is not simply a yes.

Creating this combination of an item requires permission from your GM, some may not object to it but some probably would. However, if they allow the item, then yes it would effectively be light armor.

Inner Sea Gods pg 250 wrote:

The following specific armors and shields are popular

among mortal devotees of the deities of the Inner Sea
region, as designated in the item entries. This section
focuses on relatively inexpensive magic armors and
shields that low-level characters can afford. For higher level
characters, remember that these armors can be
upgraded like any other magic item by adding "plus
equivalent" or "gp value" abilities, then paying the
difference between the original item's price and the price
of the item when upgraded with the additional special
abilities. Likewise, variants of these armors may exist
using different types of armor, such as Deadeye leather,
which is made from leather armor instead of studded
leather.
The full rules for customizing magic armor and
shields can be found in Chapter 15 of the Pathfinder RPG
Core Rulebook.

Emphasis mine.

Your DM can choose to not use these rules, but the rules exist in print.

In the rules forum, this is the correct answer. Like all things a player wants to do in the game, the DM has final say, I have never contested that.

The DM may legitimately rule that the armor already has the equivalent of "mithral" properties within it. Another name for mithral after all is "truesilver," and the armor is already described as being of a silvery metal.

You can't look for an answer in "Rules", because the question is outside of where Rule text covers. So the only answer is GM's call. My call as a GM would be a flat out No.


LazarX wrote:

The DM may legitimately rule that the armor already has the equivalent of "mithral" properties within it. Another name for mithral after all is "truesilver," and the armor is already described as being of a silvery metal.

You can't look for an answer in "Rules", because the question is outside of where Rule text covers. So the only answer is GM's call. My call as a GM would be a flat out No.

So you would make a ruling based on something not in the rules? Kinda defeats the purpose of writing that piece in Ucamp about changing specific magic items to different base items/materials.

Gauss wrote:
Lets ask a question: If we turn 'regular' armor into 'silver' armor can we then turn 'silver' armor into 'mithral' armor and have it count as 'silver'? Answer: No

Considering that Ironwood is a spell, I don't think this is entirely correct, and besides...

Quote:
Celestial Armor is made out of silver. It cannot be both silver and mithral. Since this is a specific magic item the moment you choose to make a Chainmail out of Mithral instead of Silver you cannot use it for Celestial Armor.

Did you read the thread? Specific Magic Items can be made of different materials RAW. Scroll upthread to read the citations.

Jon Otaguro 428 wrote:
I don't believe by raw that you can assume that you can stack the bonuses from mithril and celestial. As a specific item, there is no description that the higher max dex and lower ACP is due to the material or magic.

Mithral's properties and Celestial [plate] Armor's properties are not bonuses. They do not need to be stacked.

Quote:
I can just as well assume that those bonuses are due to the material of the armor. That making the item mithril just gives the user the max dex and ACP of mithril armor.

Assume anything you want in a home game, that is your right. RAW you cannot assume that the light weight comes from the material because as written it does not say that it comes from the material.

Quote:
Reasoning that you can change the material in my explanation works like this - you can change a silver axe to a cold iron axe. The axe would then be cold iron - not cold iron + silver.

But the material is irrelevant RAW, which is what OP is asking about because this is the Rules Forum, and the answers I give are based on the rules of the game.

Not once have I said that the DM cannot ultimately say no based on preference, only that it is allowable by RAW using the specific rules cited earlier.


Interesting conversation but two things:

1. It's mAster_marshmallow.

2. The rules say it is conceivable that, e.g., Deadeye Leather could be made out of leather instead of studded leather. The bolded section quoted says that different types of armor may be used, not different types of material. This means that you could conceivably have Rhino Hide armor that is actually the equivalent of Leather. This is not the same thing as saying Rhino Hide can be made out of Angelskin, which is the conclusion you're drawing. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just saying the quotation you're insisting upon proving your point doesn't do it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:
LazarX wrote:

The DM may legitimately rule that the armor already has the equivalent of "mithral" properties within it. Another name for mithral after all is "truesilver," and the armor is already described as being of a silvery metal.

You can't look for an answer in "Rules", because the question is outside of where Rule text covers. So the only answer is GM's call. My call as a GM would be a flat out No.

So you would make a ruling based on something not in the rules? Kinda defeats the purpose of writing that piece in Ucamp about changing specific magic items to different base items/materials.

For certain cases it should. After all for just about every rule in Pathfinder, there are exceptions.


fretgod99 wrote:

Interesting conversation but two things:

1. It's mAster_marshmallow.

2. The rules say it is conceivable that, e.g., Deadeye Leather could be made out of leather instead of studded leather. The bolded section quoted says that different types of armor may be used, not different types of material. This means that you could conceivably have Rhino Hide armor that is actually the equivalent of Leather. This is not the same thing as saying Rhino Hide can be made out of Angelskin, which is the conclusion you're drawing. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just saying the quotation you're insisting upon proving your point doesn't do it.

Scroll up again and read the part about the Lion's Shield.


LazarX wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
LazarX wrote:

The DM may legitimately rule that the armor already has the equivalent of "mithral" properties within it. Another name for mithral after all is "truesilver," and the armor is already described as being of a silvery metal.

You can't look for an answer in "Rules", because the question is outside of where Rule text covers. So the only answer is GM's call. My call as a GM would be a flat out No.

So you would make a ruling based on something not in the rules? Kinda defeats the purpose of writing that piece in Ucamp about changing specific magic items to different base items/materials.

For certain cases it should. After all for just about every rule in Pathfinder, there are exceptions.

And I wouldn't have a problem with you saying that as my DM, I do have a problem with you saying that your interpretation is correct by the rules and therefor an acceptable answer to someone in the Rules Forum.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:
LazarX wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
LazarX wrote:

The DM may legitimately rule that the armor already has the equivalent of "mithral" properties within it. Another name for mithral after all is "truesilver," and the armor is already described as being of a silvery metal.

You can't look for an answer in "Rules", because the question is outside of where Rule text covers. So the only answer is GM's call. My call as a GM would be a flat out No.

So you would make a ruling based on something not in the rules? Kinda defeats the purpose of writing that piece in Ucamp about changing specific magic items to different base items/materials.

For certain cases it should. After all for just about every rule in Pathfinder, there are exceptions.
And I wouldn't have a problem with you saying that as my DM, I do have a problem with you saying that your interpretation is correct by the rules and therefor an acceptable answer to someone in the Rules Forum.

It is an acceptable answer because as I'm trying to point out Rules does not address the question directly. Like it or not, and I know many don't, it IS a GM's call.


LazarX wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
LazarX wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
LazarX wrote:

The DM may legitimately rule that the armor already has the equivalent of "mithral" properties within it. Another name for mithral after all is "truesilver," and the armor is already described as being of a silvery metal.

You can't look for an answer in "Rules", because the question is outside of where Rule text covers. So the only answer is GM's call. My call as a GM would be a flat out No.

So you would make a ruling based on something not in the rules? Kinda defeats the purpose of writing that piece in Ucamp about changing specific magic items to different base items/materials.

For certain cases it should. After all for just about every rule in Pathfinder, there are exceptions.
And I wouldn't have a problem with you saying that as my DM, I do have a problem with you saying that your interpretation is correct by the rules and therefor an acceptable answer to someone in the Rules Forum.
It is an acceptable answer because as I'm trying to point out Rules does not address the question directly. Like it or not, and I know many don't, it IS a GM's call.

I've never once said that the DM doesn't have final say. Not once.


master_marshmallow wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:

Interesting conversation but two things:

1. It's mAster_marshmallow.

2. The rules say it is conceivable that, e.g., Deadeye Leather could be made out of leather instead of studded leather. The bolded section quoted says that different types of armor may be used, not different types of material. This means that you could conceivably have Rhino Hide armor that is actually the equivalent of Leather. This is not the same thing as saying Rhino Hide can be made out of Angelskin, which is the conclusion you're drawing. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just saying the quotation you're insisting upon proving your point doesn't do it.

Scroll up again and read the part about the Lion's Shield.

Sure, but that really doesn't change the fact that this particular quote from UE doesn't prove what you're trying to prove. It also doesn't address whether adding Mithral to Celestial Plate actually does anything, other than making it Mithral. Then there's the pricing issue.

Sovereign Court

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

Well that presents an interesting scenario. What comes first the mithral or the celestial? It would have to be the mithral, right? You can't make Celestial Fullplate out if mithral if the Fullplate is already made. It would have to be fullplate->made out of mithral->enchanted as Celestial.

That solves the other problem as well. Fullplate->heavy armor, mithral->med armor but need heavy prof., Celestial->med armor.

Totally agree. To craft a magic item you have to start with a mundane item. Therefore to craft Celestial Plate you'd start with either

A. Full Plate (heavy armor)

B. Mithril Full Plate (heavy armor that counts as medium)

You then magic it into Celestial Plate. Celestial Plate is medium armor. No matter what you started with - it's medium.

And if you want to say it doesn't start as anything inherently mundane since it doesn't say what it's made of - it doesn't actually say that it's made out of metal. If it's not metal - it can't be upgraded to mithril. Maybe it's made of Celestial starstuff or Angel skin, or fairy dust from Tinkerbell! Technically - you have no clue!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:
This is wrong, your interpretation is correct.

Wow, I've rarely been so entertained mister marshmallow - you must really have a lot riding on this, in some form or another.

master_marshmallow wrote:
I've never once said that the DM doesn't have final say. Not once.

But you have been ignoring the Rules from Chapter 15 of the Core Rulebook that says any custom item creation is the GM's purview. This is even referenced in the sections you're quoting. That means interpretation is required. There is no RAW. Especially when you're talking about Pathfinder rules applied to 3.5 items.

But you asked for a quote from James, Here you go. I like "It's made of gold" myself.

Sometime, back in 2002 or so somebody said "Hey, let's make *better* than mithril! We'll call it Celestial, and it'll be all silvery and gold! And it will let you fly!" "Sounds cool, let's do it". They don't stack.


fretgod99 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:

Interesting conversation but two things:

1. It's mAster_marshmallow.

2. The rules say it is conceivable that, e.g., Deadeye Leather could be made out of leather instead of studded leather. The bolded section quoted says that different types of armor may be used, not different types of material. This means that you could conceivably have Rhino Hide armor that is actually the equivalent of Leather. This is not the same thing as saying Rhino Hide can be made out of Angelskin, which is the conclusion you're drawing. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just saying the quotation you're insisting upon proving your point doesn't do it.

Scroll up again and read the part about the Lion's Shield.
Sure, but that really doesn't change the fact that this particular quote from UE doesn't prove what you're trying to prove. It also doesn't address whether adding Mithral to Celestial Plate actually does anything, other than making it Mithral. Then there's the pricing issue.

I think you need to read the material before commenting, sir.

The section quoted comes from "Pricing New Magic Items" in Ultimate Campaign.

If an armor is made of mithral, it gains the benefits of being made from mithral. There does not have to be a general rule that says it does, because the rule is inherent in mithral's description.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

Well that presents an interesting scenario. What comes first the mithral or the celestial? It would have to be the mithral, right? You can't make Celestial Fullplate out if mithral if the Fullplate is already made. It would have to be fullplate->made out of mithral->enchanted as Celestial.

That solves the other problem as well. Fullplate->heavy armor, mithral->med armor but need heavy prof., Celestial->med armor.

Totally agree. To craft a magic item you have to start with a mundane item. Therefore to craft Celestial Plate you'd start with either

A. Full Plate (heavy armor)

B. Mithril Full Plate (heavy armor that counts as medium)

You then magic it into Celestial Plate. Celestial Plate is medium armor. No matter what you started with - it's medium.

And if you want to say it doesn't start as anything inherently mundane since it doesn't say what it's made of - it doesn't actually say that it's made out of metal. If it's not metal - it can't be upgraded to mithril. Maybe it's made of Celestial starstuff or Angel skin, or fairy dust from Tinkerbell! Technically - you have no clue!

In actuality, you do not have to start with mithral full plate. You could start with just the mithral crystals and forge it yourself during the crafting process.

Magic Item Creation wrote:
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item.

Emphasis mine.

Crafting Magic Armor wrote:
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value. Additional magic supply costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.

Here it specifically calls out that you could be assembling the armor from pieces meaning that you could be making the armor from scratch.

If you are saying that the magic from Celestial Plate changes the armor to medium regardless of the armor type, I can't really argue with you, other than it doesn't allow it to supersede the mundane qualities of the armor because it does not say that it does. For example, Celestial Plate crafted out of Adamantine would still confer 2/- DR, because it is medium armor. For that reason it is still my interpretation that the armor is treated as medium, and the properties of mithral can still be applied to it, treating it as light armor.

Scarab Sages

We play it as LordSynos describes:

To craft Celestial Plate you end up with medium armor. The benefit is you only need Medium proficiency, which is a big boon to clerics.

Note the entrance for Mithral says "Most mithral armors are ..." Therefore there probably wouldn't be any DM that would rule you could stack the lightweight and proficiency benefit of celestial armor, with the exact same benefits of Mithral. They just don't stack, because they do the same thing in much the same way. So really it's a stacking issue. (and half the weight and treat as one lighter isn't an "untyped bonus")


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Actually, the armor *does* have to be crafted already, as you just quoted "He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor".

So yes, Celestial Plate is always medium because it says that it is. If you want to spend 15000gp to make it out of adamantine and get DR 2/-, as ridiculous as that is, be our guest :)


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Majuba wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
This is wrong, your interpretation is correct.
Wow, I've rarely been so entertained mister marshmallow - you must really have a lot riding on this, in some form or another.

Attack the man, not the argument, a classic strategy. I do have personal problems with someone having been answered incorrectly in the Rules Forum because someone does not agree with the rules for 'balance' or 'immersion' issues. Such things do not matter in the rules forum.

Quote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
I've never once said that the DM doesn't have final say. Not once.
But you have been ignoring the Rules from Chapter 15 of the Core Rulebook that says any custom item creation is the GM's purview. This is even referenced in the sections you're quoting. That means interpretation is required. There is no RAW. Especially when you're talking about Pathfinder rules applied to 3.5 items.

There is most certainly RAW, to imply that there isn't would be to imply that the sections I am quoting do not exist. The guidelines exist and allow for Specific Items to be made of different materials. This cannot be refuted as it is in print (RAW). Armors made of mithral have certain properties. This is also RAW. There is nothing [written] saying that the properties of both armors cannot be applied at the same time.

Quote:

But you asked for a quote from James, Here you go. I like "It's made of gold" myself.

Sometime, back in 2002 or so somebody said "Hey, let's make *better* than mithril! We'll call it Celestial, and it'll be all silvery and gold! And it will let you fly!" "Sounds cool, let's do it". They don't stack.

They don't need to stack, they are not bonuses that can be stacked. Stacking has nothing to do with the armor.

James Jacobs wrote:

Full plate, like all of the standard forms of armor listed on table 6–6, is not automatically masterwork. Simply being "individually fitted by a master armorsmith" does not make armor masterwork at all. If you want masterwork full plate, you have to spend the extra 150 gp. (Of course, since full plate already costs 1,500 gp, another 150 gp is a relatively meaningless additional expense.)

Full plate made out of dragon hide is automatically masterwork, because dragonhide is more awesome than regular steel.

Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.

Mithral full plate of speed is more expensive because haste is a VERY powerful effect. Anything that adds an additional attack is going to be guaranteed expensive, regardless of its other effects.

James Jacobs wrote:
meatrace wrote:
So does Celestial Armor reduce your speed like medium armor does?
Nope. Because it's not medium armor. It's light armor.

These statements predate Ultimate Campaign, but are still significant. It flat out says that the armor being treated as a different size are a result of the magic and not the material, meaning that unless there is another statement somewhere calling out that celestial armor's properties override the physical properties of mithral, then the rules I have been citing are confirmed.

In all cases, the availability of this armor is subject to DM approval, but according to RAW there is nothing [except the DM] that says this armor cannot exist.

Dark Archive

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master_marshmallow wrote:

In actuality, you do not have to start with mithral full plate. You could start with just the mithral crystals and forge it yourself during the crafting process.

Magic Item Creation wrote:
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item.

Emphasis mine.

Crafting Magic Armor wrote:
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value. Additional magic supply costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.

Here it specifically calls out that you could be assembling the armor from pieces meaning that you could be making the armor from scratch.

If you are saying that the magic from Celestial Plate changes the armor to medium regardless of the armor type, I can't really argue with you, other than it doesn't allow it to supersede the mundane qualities of the armor because it does not say that it does. For example, Celestial Plate crafted out of Adamantine would still confer 2/- DR, because it is medium armor. For that reason it is still my interpretation that the armor is treated as medium, and the properties of mithral can still be applied to it, treating it as light armor.

What. No, it's right there, in clear letters :

Crafting Magic Armor wrote:
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value. Additional magic supply costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.

The armour is already made, and is Mithral. It may not yet be fully assembled, but it is made, and is already Mithral. The Mithral has to come first. Not sure where you're getting this "Mithral Crystal" business from.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Inner Sea Gods pg 250 wrote:

The following specific armors and shields are popular

among mortal devotees of the deities of the Inner Sea
region, as designated in the item entries. This section
focuses on relatively inexpensive magic armors and
shields that low-level characters can afford. For higher level
characters, remember that these armors can be
upgraded like any other magic item by adding "plus
equivalent" or "gp value" abilities, then paying the
difference between the original item's price and the price
of the item when upgraded with the additional special
abilities. Likewise, variants of these armors may exist
using different types of armor, such as Deadeye leather,
which is made from leather armor instead of studded
leather.
The full rules for customizing magic armor and
shields can be found in Chapter 15 of the Pathfinder RPG
Core Rulebook.

Emphasis mine.

This rule concerns adding additional magic abilities to specific armors and creating variant specific armors usiing different types of armour, i.e. leather instead of studded leather. It makes no mention of specific armors made from different materials, so isn't relavant to the topic at hand.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Ultimate Campaign, pg 170, under "Pricing New Items" wrote:
Some new items are really existing magic items with a different weapon or armor type, such as a dagger of venom that is a rapier instead of a dagger or a lion’s shield that’s a wooden shield instead of a metal shield. For these items, just replace the price of the nonmagical masterwork item with the cost of the new type of item. For example, a rapier of venom has a price of 8,320 gp instead of the dagger of venom’s price of 8,302 gp.

Not only does this rule also concern varient items of a different weaon or armour type, i.e wooden shield instead of steel shield (wooden sheilds and steel shields are entirely diffent items, unlike steel shields and mithral shields, which are the same item made from different materials), but is also from the section of UC dealing with creating custom magic items. Custom items (along with custom feats, custom classes, custom monsters, etc.) are strictly up to the GM.

The fact is, Mithral Celestial Full Plate isn't any more or less RAW than Gloves of Truestrike and, like every other custom item, its availability, cost, and even function is up to the GM.


LordSynos wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

In actuality, you do not have to start with mithral full plate. You could start with just the mithral crystals and forge it yourself during the crafting process.

Magic Item Creation wrote:
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item.

Emphasis mine.

Crafting Magic Armor wrote:
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value. Additional magic supply costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.

Here it specifically calls out that you could be assembling the armor from pieces meaning that you could be making the armor from scratch.

If you are saying that the magic from Celestial Plate changes the armor to medium regardless of the armor type, I can't really argue with you, other than it doesn't allow it to supersede the mundane qualities of the armor because it does not say that it does. For example, Celestial Plate crafted out of Adamantine would still confer 2/- DR, because it is medium armor. For that reason it is still my interpretation that the armor is treated as medium, and the properties of mithral can still be applied to it, treating it

...

The Talsimanic Component from Ultimate Campaign, the very source material that is being debated here.

It has to be mithral, yes, but it does not have to be mithral full plate first, but the point is moot.

Creative Director calls out Clestial Armor as being treated as lighter because of the magic involved. Mithral is treated as lighter because it is physically lighter. Applying one to the other is covered in making custom items in the new materials.

When someone asks: "Can I make a suit of Celestial Armor out of Mithral Fullplate and have it be treated as light armor?" the answer, unequivocally is "Yes, using the guidelines from Ultimate Campaign."

Within those guidelines from Ultimate Campaign is the much debated "subject to DM approval" line which I am being hounded for.


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Gauss wrote:
Lets ask a question: If we turn 'regular' armor into 'silver' armor can we then turn 'silver' armor into 'mithral' armor and have it count as 'silver'? Answer: No

Yes.

Mithral wrote:
Mithral weapons count as silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

...For one very specific purpose, namely using the armor as an improvised weapon against a creature with DR/silver.


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So... I take a silk shirt and hat and pants and boots. Then enchant them as a celestial plate armor. It would change from basic clothes into medium armor.

Silver Crusade

Step 1: celestial plate is from an AP, not a core-line book. If you're not playing that AP, it's not "RAW".

The bit from UC would let a fullplate version to be made, but that gets funny since the base item is chainmail that is treated as light armor.

Celestial Armor wrote:
This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

Would the fullplate celestial armor still be light? Is it now medium? Based only on the UC rules there is no answer. For this specific armor, the base type and its effect are tied together inseparably.

Step 2: If we're using the AP item, it says silver. That means, to some extent, the item's effects are based on this, since only steel has no effect on the properties of the base armor.

If we treat this as a color description, then it doesn't say what it's made of. If it isn't called out as being made of metal, you can't make it mithral anyway. Because this is a specific magic item, the material isn't specified. If you want RAW, the material MUST be metal to be replaced with mithral. Not "probably is", must be.


Ok I'm alittle confused. I get mostly what your saying Marshmallow. Tho i don't have the books so i cant read any of the rules. But i cant and don't get where it says that Celestial plate is med armor because it is magic vs say material. I have read it and read it again and again. It just doesn't say how its made into med armor. But if i missed something please help me to see where i missed it.
Now if it is magical i would agree that Mithral would knock it down to light armor in that case.


Razal-Thule wrote:
But i cant and don't get where it says that Celestial plate is med armor because it is magic vs say material.

It's in the quote from James Jacobs.

excerpt from JJ's post wrote:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.


Riuken wrote:

Step 1: celestial plate is from an AP, not a core-line book. If you're not playing that AP, it's not "RAW".

The bit from UC would let a fullplate version to be made, but that gets funny since the base item is chainmail that is treated as light armor.

Celestial Armor wrote:
This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

Would the fullplate celestial armor still be light? Is it now medium? Based only on the UC rules there is no answer. For this specific armor, the base type and its effect are tied together inseparably.

Step 2: If we're using the AP item, it says silver. That means, to some extent, the item's effects are based on this, since only steel has no effect on the properties of the base armor.

If we treat this as a color description, then it doesn't say what it's made of. If it isn't called out as being made of metal, you can't make it mithral anyway. Because this is a specific magic item, the material isn't specified. If you want RAW, the material MUST be metal to be replaced with mithral. Not "probably is", must be.

Technically, you are correct, but there is nothing that says you cannot take the chassis of the Mithral Fullplate and apply the Celestial Armor's magic to it per the rules in Ultimate Campaign. Essentially, it's the same thing, though I believe it is statistically a little better.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:
Attack the man, not the argument, a classic strategy.

I didn't attack you, I am legitimately amused.

master_marshmallow wrote:
The guidelines exist and allow for Specific Items to be made of different materials. This cannot be refuted as it is in print (RAW).

What you quote says, "The full rules for this can be found in Chapter 15 of the Core Rulebook." That means this is commentary on those rules, pointing out can be possible. The full rules say "up to your GM".

Quote:

But you asked for a quote from James, Here you go. I like "It's made of gold" myself.

Sometime, back in 2002 or so somebody said "Hey, let's make *better* than mithril! We'll call it Celestial, and it'll be all silvery and gold! And it will let you fly!" "Sounds cool, let's do it". They don't stack.

They don't need to stack, they are not bonuses that can be stacked. Stacking has nothing to do with the armor.

You're right, they are properties inherent to the material and the magic - those properties perform essentially the same action - make the base armor useable as if it were one category lighter. Those properties do not apply to one another, only to the base armor.

Edit:

master_marshmallow wrote:
When someone asks: "Can I make a suit of Celestial Armor out of Mithral Fullplate and have it be treated as light armor?" the answer, unequivocally is "Yes, using the guidelines from Ultimate Campaign."

This is a laughable statement given this thread's existence.


Majuba wrote:
Those properties do not apply to one another, only to the base armor.

Where does it say that?


master_marshmallow wrote:
Riuken wrote:

Step 1: celestial plate is from an AP, not a core-line book. If you're not playing that AP, it's not "RAW".

The bit from UC would let a fullplate version to be made, but that gets funny since the base item is chainmail that is treated as light armor.

Celestial Armor wrote:
This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

Would the fullplate celestial armor still be light? Is it now medium? Based only on the UC rules there is no answer. For this specific armor, the base type and its effect are tied together inseparably.

Step 2: If we're using the AP item, it says silver. That means, to some extent, the item's effects are based on this, since only steel has no effect on the properties of the base armor.

If we treat this as a color description, then it doesn't say what it's made of. If it isn't called out as being made of metal, you can't make it mithral anyway. Because this is a specific magic item, the material isn't specified. If you want RAW, the material MUST be metal to be replaced with mithral. Not "probably is", must be.

Technically, you are correct, but there is nothing that says you cannot take the chassis of the Mithral Fullplate and apply the Celestial Armor's magic to it per the rules in Ultimate Campaign. Essentially, it's the same thing, though I believe it is statistically a little better.

But we still have the question of whether the magic acts on what type of armor it "actually" is, or the armor it is being "treated as".

I doubt the devs would let you do that if they were to make a ruling on this.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Majuba wrote:
Those properties do not apply to one another, only to the base armor.
Where does it say that?

It doesn't, but it also does not say that it does not act in that way either so nobody can really say how it works per RAW. We can only say how we think the dev team would rule if they were to rule on it.

Normally in this game when the words "treated as" are used, it refers you back to the base/default scenario. So if you try to apply two similar affects they it won't. An example is trying to use TWF if you can already flurry because they are similar.


wraithstrike wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Majuba wrote:
Those properties do not apply to one another, only to the base armor.
Where does it say that?

It doesn't, but it also does not say that it does not act in that way either so nobody can really say how it works per RAW. We can only say how we think the dev team would rule if they were to rule on it.

Normally in this game when the words "treated as" are used, it refers you back to the base/default scenario. So if you try to apply two similar affects they it won't. An example is trying to use TWF if you can already flurry because they are similar.

The words 'treated as' and 'is considered' really do not change the way the rules are.

I think you are working too hard to try and disprove something that imo is clearly allowed RAI.


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The way I read it is that no matter what it is made of, it is still treated as medium armor. In fact, it could be made from marsh mellows and still be treated as medium armor.


And in mine, and perhaps other's, opinion you are working too hard to try and prove something that imo is clearly not allowed. Yes I say it's fine to have mithral celestial full plate. But it'd still be treated as medium armor. Full plate is heavy, and you'd be treating it as medium twice.


master_marshmallow wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Majuba wrote:
Those properties do not apply to one another, only to the base armor.
Where does it say that?

It doesn't, but it also does not say that it does not act in that way either so nobody can really say how it works per RAW. We can only say how we think the dev team would rule if they were to rule on it.

Normally in this game when the words "treated as" are used, it refers you back to the base/default scenario. So if you try to apply two similar affects they it won't. An example is trying to use TWF if you can already flurry because they are similar.

The words 'treated as' and 'is considered' really do not change the way the rules are.

I think you are working too hard to try and disprove something that imo is clearly allowed RAI.

What I am saying is they have an effect on how things interact, which is not the same thing as changing the rules because how things interact is actually a part of the rules.

In other words all of these things work together toward an end result. That however does not mean you can always pile things on for a greater effect. Sometimes effects are redundant.

You can keep saying it is RAW, but you have no quotes that support it not being redundant, just like I don't have that show it would be. So we are in RAI territory.


Chess Pwn wrote:
And in mine, and perhaps other's, opinion you are working too hard to try and prove something that imo is clearly not allowed. Yes I say it's fine to have mithral celestial full plate. But it'd still be treated as medium armor. Full plate is heavy, and you'd be treating it as medium twice.

Then make it Celestial Armor and treat it as light.

At this point you are just arguing for the sake of telling me I'm wrong.


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It seems to me that order of operations is pretty important here.

You quite obviously cannot take existing celestial armor and make it mithral, the armor has to be mithral before (or while) it is enchanted.

So, you can make some mithral full plate (which counts as medium except proficiency etc. etc.) and then you can apply the 'celestial platemail' enhancement package to it. The celestial platemail package though doesn't reduce an armors category, it simply gives it a specific category.

Therefore, mithral celestial plate would count as medium armor just like non-mithral celestial plate.

RAW I don't see any other possible interpretation.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
And in mine, and perhaps other's, opinion you are working too hard to try and prove something that imo is clearly not allowed. Yes I say it's fine to have mithral celestial full plate. But it'd still be treated as medium armor. Full plate is heavy, and you'd be treating it as medium twice.

Then make it Celestial Armor and treat it as light.

At this point you are just arguing for the sake of telling me I'm wrong.

Actually he is saying the same thing I was saying a few hours ago. I just pressed the FAQ button in the opening post so this can be looked at. Like I said before I dont think either side is going to convince the other so that is all I can do.


Dave Justus wrote:

It seems to me that order of operations is pretty important here.

You quite obviously cannot take existing celestial armor and make it mithral, the armor has to be mithral before (or while) it is enchanted.

So, you can make some mithral full plate (which counts as medium except proficiency etc. etc.) and then you can apply the 'celestial platemail' enhancement package to it. The celestial platemail package though doesn't reduce an armors category, it simply gives it a specific category.

Therefore, mithral celestial plate would count as medium armor just like non-mithral celestial plate.

RAW I don't see any other possible interpretation.

This is a good point. The magic may not make it "one category lighter". It may just apply a specific category on the armor. The book never does mention "one category lighter....." with regard to celestial armor.

So applying "make this armor medium" magic to something that is already medium due to mithral would not really do anything.


James Jacobs wrote:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.

Emphasis mine. It is made lighter by the magic involved.

All of this is solved by simply using Mithral Fullplate in place of Chainmail when crafting Celestial Armor, rather than Celestial Plate. No FAQ necessary, you guys are trying too hard.

James Jacobs wrote:
Reading the rules too closely is bad for your sanity.


master_marshmallow wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.

Emphasis mine. It is made lighter by the magic involved.

All of this is solved by simply using Mithral Fullplate in place of Chainmail when crafting Celestial Armor, rather than Celestial Plate. No FAQ necessary, you guys are trying too hard.

James Jacobs wrote:
Reading the rules too closely is bad for your sanity.

Exactly "makes this armor medium" magic would make it one medium, but if it is already medium due to mithral then it is still medium. That in no way invalidates what James said because making heavy armor into medium armor, by using "make it one category lighter magic", or "you will be medium" magic still has the end result, so normally it does not matter how it was done.

With all of that said James word is not RAW, and is not even on the rules team so quoting him won't help you, even if he said it uses "makes the armor one category light" instead of applying a default condition.


If only there were coherent pricing rules for weight reduction, armor bonuses, and so on... then instead of listing 8,642 different types of specific armor and materials in various combinations, you could just apply the formulas and tally up the cost.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
If only there were coherent pricing rules for weight reduction, armor bonuses, and so on... then instead of listing 8,642 different types of specific armor and materials in various combinations, you could just apply the formulas and tally up the cost.

If only I had cited it...


wraithstrike wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.

Emphasis mine. It is made lighter by the magic involved.

All of this is solved by simply using Mithral Fullplate in place of Chainmail when crafting Celestial Armor, rather than Celestial Plate. No FAQ necessary, you guys are trying too hard.

James Jacobs wrote:
Reading the rules too closely is bad for your sanity.

Exactly "makes this armor medium" magic would make it one medium, but if it is already medium due to mithral then it is still medium. That in no way invalidates what James said because making heavy armor into medium armor, by using "make it one category lighter magic", or "you will be medium" magic still has the end result, so normally it does not matter how it was done.

With all of that said James word is not RAW, and is not even on the rules team so quoting him won't help you, even if he said it uses "makes the armor one category light" instead of applying a default condition.

With this logic in mind, screw Mithral. Just make Celestial Armor out of full plate and have it be treated as light armor with 8 max DEX because it "is considered light armor."


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master_marshmallow wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
If only there were coherent pricing rules for weight reduction, armor bonuses, and so on... then instead of listing 8,642 different types of specific armor and materials in various combinations, you could just apply the formulas and tally up the cost.
If only I had cited it...

Except a system like that doesn't exist in Pathfinder for you to cite. PF has a mess of armor types (with no rhyme or reason to their weight, AC, etc.); and a -1 to check penalties for masterwork at one price; and bonuses and penalties to hardness and hp for enhancement bonuses on the one hand, or for various materials on the other, with no costs that come close to matching or fitting any kind of pattern; and some materials do various other things for prices that are essentially random; and on top of that there are specific exception-based armors like Celestial Plate. If that's your idea of "coherent pricing rules for weight reduction and so on," then you and I mean completely different things by the word "coherent."

Imagine if we could instead start at 0, and take armor bonus squared x some scaling factor, and hardness x some other and hp x some other, and subtract weight x some other, and so on, and essentially create any combination of AC, weight, and other properties, with costs coherently scaled. We wouldn't need to worry about "masterwork hide armor made of special gu-gu hide material that's also +1." You could just stat out the armor and call it gu-gu hide.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
If only there were coherent pricing rules for weight reduction, armor bonuses, and so on... then instead of listing 8,642 different types of specific armor and materials in various combinations, you could just apply the formulas and tally up the cost.
If only I had cited it...
Except a system like that doesn't exist in Pathfinder for you to cite. PF has a mess of armor types (with no rhyme or reason to their weight, AC, etc.); and a -1 to check penalties for masterwork at one price; and bonuses and penalties to hardness and hp for enhancement bonuses on the one hand, or for various materials on the other, with no costs that come close to matching or fitting any kind of pattern; and some materials do various other things for prices that are essentially random; and on top of that there are specific exception-based armors like Celestial Plate. If that's your idea of "coherent pricing rules for weight reduction and so on," then you and I mean completely different things by the word "coherent."

I appreciate the sentiment, but I feel the game really doesn't need such mechanics to be broken down anymore than they are.

Worrying about such things takes a toll on your sanity, friend.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Worrying about such things takes a toll on your sanity, friend.

Probably. Then again, I've made such a system for my home game. And, arguably, I had no sanity to begin with, so taking a larger toll on it was really no great loss.


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master_marshmallow wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.

Emphasis mine. It is made lighter by the magic involved.

All of this is solved by simply using Mithral Fullplate in place of Chainmail when crafting Celestial Armor, rather than Celestial Plate. No FAQ necessary, you guys are trying too hard.

James Jacobs wrote:
Reading the rules too closely is bad for your sanity.

Exactly "makes this armor medium" magic would make it one medium, but if it is already medium due to mithral then it is still medium. That in no way invalidates what James said because making heavy armor into medium armor, by using "make it one category lighter magic", or "you will be medium" magic still has the end result, so normally it does not matter how it was done.

With all of that said James word is not RAW, and is not even on the rules team so quoting him won't help you, even if he said it uses "makes the armor one category light" instead of applying a default condition.

With this logic in mind, screw Mithral. Just make Celestial Armor out of full plate and have it be treated as light armor with 8 max DEX because it "is considered light armor."

I am confused by what you mean.

I will give you some more information however.

A. This magic makes the plate armor one category light from its current standing etc etc etc

B. This magic makes heavy armor into medium armor etc etc.

My basic point is that there is no RAW to say how the flavor behind this magic works. If it is A I still think your idea does not work, but if it is B then you have no chance at all of being correct dropping 2 categories because the mithral is doing the same thing that magic is doing for the most part.

PS: Celstial Armor's magic could make medium armor act as light armor, but the magic that is used on Celestial Plate may only make heavy armor into medium armor. Just because they have a similar same name, that does not mean they do the exact same thing. We only know the end result, not how the magic is applied, so by RAW the answer is still murky. Which goes back to "ask the GM".


wraithstrike wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.

Emphasis mine. It is made lighter by the magic involved.

All of this is solved by simply using Mithral Fullplate in place of Chainmail when crafting Celestial Armor, rather than Celestial Plate. No FAQ necessary, you guys are trying too hard.

James Jacobs wrote:
Reading the rules too closely is bad for your sanity.

Exactly "makes this armor medium" magic would make it one medium, but if it is already medium due to mithral then it is still medium. That in no way invalidates what James said because making heavy armor into medium armor, by using "make it one category lighter magic", or "you will be medium" magic still has the end result, so normally it does not matter how it was done.

With all of that said James word is not RAW, and is not even on the rules team so quoting him won't help you, even if he said it uses "makes the armor one category light" instead of applying a default condition.

With this logic in mind, screw Mithral. Just make Celestial Armor out of full plate and have it be treated as light armor with 8 max DEX because it "is considered light armor."

I am confused by what you mean.

I will give you some more information however.

A. This magic makes the plate armor one category light from its current standing etc etc etc

B. This magic makes heavy armor into medium armor etc etc.

My basic point is that there is...

I'm being trolled. Now you are taking back your logic because I disproved what you were saying?

End of the day, it doesn't matter how these things interact, because the only thing probable by RAW is that they interact. Personally, I disagree that the properties of Mithral are invalidated by the celestial enchantment on the basis that there is no language suggesting that the material being lighter somehow is the same effect as Mithral and therefore cannot "stack" (even though there are no bonuses and "stacking" doesn't even occur here.)
When you day the magical properties of Celestial plate or Celestial armor negate and supersede the physical properties of the base armor you are not using any logic supported by the rules, but rather your own impression of the game's interior logic. That's fine, but by attempting to infer that which is not implied you are making a mockery of the rules forum.

Not that I don't think your opinion is valid. Applying Celestial armor to a Mithral base creates armors that simply break the game's balance. But the rules are there to support its existence and in the rules forum that is all that matters.


I did not take back any logic. You misunderstood if thay is what you think.
Simple version : No matter whether you go by A or B as presented in my previous post I think you are incorrect. If you follow B then the case is cut and dry.

If you are still reading that as me changing my stance then you need to quote what I said so I can help you understand.


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I think his point is that if you go with the reduction in armor size category being fixed, then you could just use the enchantment off of the CRB Celestial Armor and apply it to full plate, making it light armor that way.

So, does the Celestial enchantment reduce armor by one category, or cause a fixed reduction to a given category (medium for plate version of the magic, light for chain version). If it's a fixed change, it means Celestia Plate and Celestial Chain technically have different types of magic on them, and the Celestial Chain version is vastly superior. If armor category and max dex changes are relative to the armor's base stats, then it becomes a question of whether Mithral stacks with Celestial. Which I personally think it would, since it's two different abilities from different sources (even if bonuses are very similar, but not identical).

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