Hold me closer, Tiny Mouser


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
ACG, page 126 wrote:

Underfoot Assault (Ex): At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser’s is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker’s space. This movement does not count against the mouser’s movement the next round, and it doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe’s space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe’s space.

While the mouser is within her foe’s space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser’s allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe’s space and leave the foe’s space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.

CRB, page 194-195 wrote:
A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. [...] Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.

1. Could a Tiny Mouser (such as a halfling with access to reduce person) simply enter a larger creature's square, provoking as normal, and gain the benefits of Underfoot Assault without needing to be missed in melee and spend a panache point?

2. Would the fact that Underfoot Assault says the Mouser is flanking whenever an ally is adjacent be the specific that trumps the general "can't flank an enemy" (which is clearly because they don't threaten outside their square, but it seems logical that they do threaten within their square).

Both of these seem to be "yes" to me, but the wording makes me come to ask what others think just to be sure before I build this character. ;-)

CRB, page 135 wrote:

Step Up (Combat)

You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.

3. Could a mouser with Step Up follow a creature who attempts to move away from him, and remain within that creature's square? This one is a little iffier.


1) I would say "yes", as Underfoot Assault says "While the mouser is within her foe's space" without specifying how she got there.

2) I would say "yes" as well, merely because Underfoot Assault says "The mouser is considered to be flanking." Maybe that's iffy, but "is considered to be" indicates to me that even if she is NOT flanking, she still gains the benefits of flanking. So a tiny creature can't flank per se but can still be considered to be flanking.

3) I would say "no", because Step Up specifies that you have to end up "adjacent" to the enemy, so you can't Step Up and remain in their same square.

Scarab Sages

This is going to make clearing out lairs of sprites a lot more interesting...

Liberty's Edge

Every Atomie now needs a level dip into Mouser. :)


Show me a mouser, and I'll show you a swashbuckler with bad breath.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Quote:
but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser.

Would this include a 5-foot-step, even though 5-foot-steps normally do not provoke? It seems like the Mouser would be pointless if it didn't, since the foe could almost always 5-foot-step out and not care.


Pahlok wrote:
Would this include a 5-foot-step, even though 5-foot-steps normally do not provoke? It seems like the Mouser would be pointless if it didn't, since the foe could almost always 5-foot-step out and not care.

At first I thought it would, but the rules for 5-foot step do specifically say "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity."


Likewise. "Never provokes" is pretty clear, and that makes it pretty clear that the Mouser isn't going to be doing a whole lot of useful Mousing...


Upon further research, I'm back to thinking it does provoke. Let's look at the feat Pin Down:

Pin Down wrote:
Benefit: Whenever an opponent you threaten takes a 5-foot step or uses the withdraw action, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If the attack hits, you deal no damage, but the targeted creature is prevented from making the move action that granted a 5-foot step or the withdraw action and does not move.

Therefore, there are definitely cases where taking a 5-foot step does provoke, using the "specific trumps general" rule. I think the Mouser ability, being specific in this case, trumps the general rule that 5-foot steps don't provoke.

I marked your question as an FAQ candidate, though, because it still seems ambiguous.


Ah, good catch! I think I may have a hard time convincing PFS GMs so without an official word on it, though. Thanks for the mark.

As far as OP's question on Step-Up, I think that it may work. This is bit of a different situation, but it might be relevant; for riders and mounts, they are considered adjacent, even though they are considered to both occupy the same space. It could follow that the Mouser is considered adjacent when it occupies the same space as an enemy, allowing them to step-up as long as they could normally step into that foe's space (tiny or smaller).

EDIT: I just found this tidbit in the Combat section of the PRD.

Quote:
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).

Considering that 0 feet is within 5 feet, a square occupied by the opponent is considered adjacent.


Yeah, I'd say that 5FS'ing out of a Mouser's square provokes. A single archetype's ability is more specific than the combat rules for a 5FS.

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