daimaru |
Well, if it were up to me I'd apply real world physics here. If two cars hit each other, the damage doesn't depend on which one is moving, it's the same energy transfer either way. So the damage depends on which one squishes more easily. A spider swarm has an AC of 17. If yours is the same I'd have them take the same damage. If yours is less, then I'd have them take less damage, if more, more. (If yours was an AC of 12, I'd give them 2/3 the damage.) It ought to matter how big you are too, (you'd squish more of them), but I don't have a clue how to quantify that so I'd ignore it. This is just what I'd do though; if there's a rule I don't know it. :)
Lord Vukodlak |
Swarms are (mostly) immune to weapon damage but a falling PC is not a weapon but a falling object so I would apply the falling objects rules to the swarm.
Good to know that at your table I can harm swarms by dropping my weapon onto them instead of just swinging it.
Mergy wrote:A rat swarm isn't immune to weapon damage, but a spider swarm is. If it's a swarm of tiny creatures, I'd say half damage.But neither are listed as immune to damage from a falling object, If we're talking RAW.
By RAW characters/creatures aren't objects either so they deal no damage when falling on other creatures.
Tanganika |
To clarify; falling damage is something YOU take when YOU fall. If you pushed the swarm off a 20 foot ledge I would expect there to be some damage. If I fell into a 10 foot by 10 foot pit full of critters I might crush a few, but not a meaningful amount. Especially as I have a habit of trying to land on my feet and not my face.
richard develyn |
The thing I find difficult to get my head around is the idea that you are not an object.
Presumably if you were dead, you would be.
If you were unconscious ... don't know.
If a dead you would count as a falling object then it would do crushing damage to everything in a 5' square (i.e. area effect, effects swarms x 1.5), so why not an unconscious you or normal you?
Does RAW state specifically somewhere that a living creature is not an object?
Richard
Benchak the Nightstalker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8 |
It seems to me that when they gave swarms immunity to weapon damage, they were thinking about traditional melee attacks (swords and whatnot) and not medium creatures belly-flopping onto them.
That being the case, I don't think a slavish adherence to RAW is the best way to handle this situation.
I think same damage as taken by falling creature is a fair way to run it. I might even convert a d6 of the damage to nonlethal damage for both parties, to account for the "soft" landing.
Lord Vukodlak |
The thing I find difficult to get my head around is the idea that you are not an object.
Presumably if you were dead, you would be.
If you were unconscious ... don't know.
If a dead you would count as a falling object then it would do crushing damage to everything in a 5' square (i.e. area effect, effects swarms x 1.5), so why not an unconscious you or normal you?
Does RAW state specifically somewhere that a living creature is not an object?
Richard
Objects are treated differently then creatures for a host of spells and effects. For instance objects take half damage from energy and ranged attacks. Certain spells only effect objects. If creatures were objects then you could use shrink item on them.
Goznaz made the point that by RAW falling objects aren't weapons, I was merely extending that logic. In any event using falling creatures as a method of dealing damage is a slippery slope.
Benchak the Nightstalker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8 |
Objects are treated differently then creatures for a host of spells and effects. For instance objects take half damage from energy and ranged attacks. Certain spells only effect objects. If creatures were objects then you could use shrink item on them.
Goznaz made the point that by RAW falling objects aren't weapons, I was merely extending that logic. Using falling creatures as a method of dealing damage is a slippery slope.
And where do you imagine that slippery slope ending?
Lord Vukodlak |
Lord Vukodlak wrote:And where do you imagine that slippery slope ending?Objects are treated differently then creatures for a host of spells and effects. For instance objects take half damage from energy and ranged attacks. Certain spells only effect objects. If creatures were objects then you could use shrink item on them.
Goznaz made the point that by RAW falling objects aren't weapons, I was merely extending that logic. Using falling creatures as a method of dealing damage is a slippery slope.
Falling earth elementals.
Matthew Downie |
Trying not to injure yourself while falling is covered in the Acrobatics rules. You don't take a critical hit for falling while unconscious.
A falling object and the thing it lands on take the same amount of damage. It wouldn't be unreasonable to apply the same rule to a falling character. So if you used Acrobatics to reduce the falling damage you took, it would also reduce the damage you inflicted on the target.
richard develyn |
Can I just backtrack a little bit here because there are two issues.
Issue 1: If I drop a medium sized object (not a person) from 10'+ onto a swarm, does the swarm take 3d6 x 1.5 damage?
Issue 2: Should a falling person treated as an object in this case (conscious or not)?
Richard
P.S. Gm Fiat notwithstanding, of course :-)
Benchak the Nightstalker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8 |
Falling earth elementals.
Doesn't seem like a terrible outcome. If you can set up a situation where Earth Elementals are in a position to fall on an swarm (remember, you can't summon them up there), I think its fair to get some benefit to that. You could alternatively be using huge boulders (which, with shrink item, are easier to carry into position anyway).
And remember, DR doesn't apply to falling damage, so you're janking up your earth elementals in the process.
Goznaz |
I've seen a few posts mention "won't kill all the swarm". You don't need to once a swarm hits 0 hps it doesn't die it disperses.
As far as the earth elemental goes, if you can do that you can cast or summon something with good aoe damage more than likely.
Also I think position on the matter comes from people thinking that immunity to weapon damage means immune to all physical damage. If the npc was large to huge I think we would see people arguing more severe damage as opposed to immunity.
Thomas Long 175 |
This actually begs the question, why don't bludgeoning weapons affect swarms?
Surely it's the same principle if you're hammering them or falling on them? I can understand slashing/piercing not working.
Slashing and piercing do half damage if they're tiny or above, whereupon to my knowledge bludgeoning works normally. Below that is fine and diminutive where i guess a hammer just wouldn't cover enough area.