Can I ever dual wield Longbows as a human?


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graystone wrote:
As far as "half Str damage instead of full Str", that isn't the rule. Using a light or one handed weapon in an offhand says that. Nothing says a ranged weapon has that. Note the Double Sling says NOTHING about 1/2 damage from your off hand attack. It just says add one attack and use TWF minuses. It doesn't say to take offhand penalties so full strength to all attacks. Don't see why other ranged weapons would differ.

So light weapons and one handed weapons have explict rules dealing with two weapon fighting and two handed weapons don't. Can you two weapon fight with two handed weapons?

Crossbows and (apparently) double slings (don't know that weapon) have rules for two weapon fighting and bows don't (aside from an archtype that was created specifically for that purpose). Can you two weapon fight with bows (assuming you don't have that specific archtype)?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I can find no reason, that additional unwritten rules exist, to further contradict RAW, and have the Bow count as a two-handed weapon, solely for the unwritten restriction, regarding two-weapon fighting.

Hell, if you are going to use unwritten rules, then at least look here, to have some idea what those unwritten rules entail.

All you have are unwritten rules. I've asked you for the written rules and you've provided none. I ask (for the third time), how many hands does it take to use a bow?

Grand Lodge

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:


All you have are unwritten rules. I've asked you for the written rules and you've provided none. I ask (for the third time), how many hands does it take to use a bow?

Rules that state a Bow is not a two-handed weapon, but simply a Ranged weapon, that requires two hands to use?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I can find no reason, that additional unwritten rules exist, to further contradict RAW, and have the Bow count as a two-handed weapon, solely for the unwritten restriction, regarding two-weapon fighting.

Hell, if you are going to use unwritten rules, then at least look here, to have some idea what those unwritten rules entail.

the bow explicitly states it uses two hands, while the projectile weapon section says that you need to look in the description to determine how many hands it uses. just saying, the rules as written say you use 2 hands.

since the unwritten rule says basically that these hands can be used but not at the same time, you still use your 2 hands per round on your bow, not leaving the other 2 open for use.

source

Quote:
Projectile Weapons: Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
Longbow wrote:
Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a Strength bonus, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below), but not when you use a regular longbow.

blah blah, specific over rides general.

Grand Lodge

I say the unwritten rules do not prevent it, and does not violate the "more than x1.5" unwritten rule.

Even that unwritten rule, can be broken with things like the Barbazu Beard, as noted by SKR here.

So, now, you decided that there is an unwritten rule, that makes a Bow count as two-handed weapon, not just a Ranged weapon that requires two hand to use, but only for certain unwritten rules restrictions, and nothing else.

I disagree.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I say the unwritten rules do not prevent it, and does not violate the "more than x1.5" unwritten rule.

Even that unwritten rule, can be broken with things like the Barbazu Beard, as noted by SKR here.

So, now, you decided that there is an unwritten rule, that makes a Bow count as two-handed weapon, not just a Ranged weapon that requires two hand to use, but only for certain unwritten rules restrictions, and nothing else.

I disagree.

I'm not stating their two-handed weapons or behave like them, I am stating you can only use 2 hands at any given time if your race has 2 hands, and that bows use 2 hands. this has nothing to do with two-handed weapons denying things like unarmed strikes, just your hands of effort being used up already.

like your third hand doesn't count as a "free" hand if your 2 hands of effort are in use, as an example. This is my interpretation of the unwritten rules, which I think are fair to say, exist. You don't need to write everything down to know the system expects certain things, and one of those things is you have 2 arms and hands.

I believe the last time we discussed this, I mentioned to you I had set out house rules to clarify this area. such as changing the unwritten rule to 2.0 strength in extreme cases (such as dual wielding two-handers).

simple version of my rules::

wielding:
Primary: 1.0 str, when a weapon is wielded or uses only your primary hand.
Secondary: 0.5 str, when a weapon is only wielded in an off-hand or multiple off-hands.
Two-handed:1.5 str, when a weapon is wielded with a primary and off-hand.
Body: 0.5 str, when a weapon is not wielded in a hand, only one body weapon can be used at any given time.

so a lvl 1 human, gets at best 2.0 if they want to use a greatsword and tried to punch things or use a bladeboot (though your off-hand has a two-hander in it so you get penalties for not having a light weapon in all off-hands). you get 2.0 by dual wielding greatswords with 4 arms. etc. yes you can still break 2.0 by just using like 4 longswords.

Liberty's Edge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I say the unwritten rules do not prevent it, and does not violate the "more than x1.5" unwritten rule.

Even that unwritten rule, can be broken with things like the Barbazu Beard, as noted by SKR here.

So, now, you decided that there is an unwritten rule, that makes a Bow count as two-handed weapon, not just a Ranged weapon that requires two hand to use, but only for certain unwritten rules restrictions, and nothing else.

I disagree.

So, let me get this straight. You just linked to a thread where SKR himself gave up on trying to convince you of how a rule worked, and think that's a positive for your argument? Personally, I think I'm just going to take his lead here...

EDIT: Sorry, this post is snarky, but this thread is kinda going nowhere, you're asking why something can't be done, then people explain using the FAQs and dev post, which you're saying aren't valid because they're not in the CRB, but they're not going to re-write the CRB every time a new option comes out that causes a problem with the rules as is, which is why they have FAQs and errata.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I say the unwritten rules do not prevent it, and does not violate the "more than x1.5" unwritten rule.

Even that unwritten rule, can be broken with things like the Barbazu Beard, as noted by SKR here.

So, now, you decided that there is an unwritten rule, that makes a Bow count as two-handed weapon, not just a Ranged weapon that requires two hand to use, but only for certain unwritten rules restrictions, and nothing else.

I disagree.

No, you see rules you don't like so you ignore them (which is fine), then you come to the rules forum and tell other people they don't exist (which is less fine).

Two-handed weapons are not prevented from two weapon fighting because they are Two-handed weapons. Two-handed weapons cannot be used in two weapon fighting because they require two hands to use. How many hands are required to use bows?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I say the unwritten rules do not prevent it, and does not violate the "more than x1.5" unwritten rule.

Even that unwritten rule, can be broken with things like the Barbazu Beard, as noted by SKR here.

So, now, you decided that there is an unwritten rule, that makes a Bow count as two-handed weapon, not just a Ranged weapon that requires two hand to use, but only for certain unwritten rules restrictions, and nothing else.

I disagree.

BBT, no one but you is saying the bow "should" count as a two-handed weapon. We've all been clear and repeated that it's not a two-handed weapon. It takes two hands to wield, the same number as a two-handed weapon. And since it uses two hands to wield the FAQ applies. The FAQ doesn't care which weapon you are using, just how many hands you're using to wield it.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
graystone wrote:
As far as "half Str damage instead of full Str", that isn't the rule. Using a light or one handed weapon in an offhand says that. Nothing says a ranged weapon has that. Note the Double Sling says NOTHING about 1/2 damage from your off hand attack. It just says add one attack and use TWF minuses. It doesn't say to take offhand penalties so full strength to all attacks. Don't see why other ranged weapons would differ.
So light weapons and one handed weapons have explict rules dealing with two weapon fighting and two handed weapons don't. Can you two weapon fight with two handed weapons?

You are wrong. TWF has explicit rules about fighting with light weapons. One handed and two handed weapons are never mentioned. As such, the rules treat both the same under the rules. As an example, a gillman can use a sea-knife and a Halberd. "This allows the wielder to use a two-handed weapon, or wield a weapon with one hand and carry a shield, and still make off-hand attacks with the sea-knife. Attacks made with a sea-knife take a –2 circumstance penalty on attack rolls in addition to all other attack penalties." This proves 2 handed weapons CAN be used in TWF and they aren't treated any different than any other non-light weapon.

As far as "Can you two weapon fight with bows": As long as you come up with all the arms/hands needed, I don't see why not. The double sling proves that ranged strength damage isn't 1/2 and the number of hands would be taken care of. Neither the ranged weapon entry or the 2 handed melee weapon entry mention a need for a primary hand.

Grand Lodge

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:


No, you see rules you don't like so you ignore them (which is fine), then you come to the rules forum and tell other people they don't exist (which is less fine).
Two-handed weapons are not prevented from two weapon fighting because they are Two-handed weapons. Two-handed weapons cannot be used in two weapon fighting because they require two hands to use. How many hands are required to use bows?

The only rules I don't like, that for the most part, I "ignore", are unwritten rules.

Bows require two hands to use, but do not follow the rules of two-handed weapons, because they are not two-handed weapons.

These are different. If you can prove otherwise, the burden of proof, is on you.


graystone wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
graystone wrote:
As far as "half Str damage instead of full Str", that isn't the rule. Using a light or one handed weapon in an offhand says that. Nothing says a ranged weapon has that. Note the Double Sling says NOTHING about 1/2 damage from your off hand attack. It just says add one attack and use TWF minuses. It doesn't say to take offhand penalties so full strength to all attacks. Don't see why other ranged weapons would differ.
So light weapons and one handed weapons have explict rules dealing with two weapon fighting and two handed weapons don't. Can you two weapon fight with two handed weapons?

You are wrong. TWF has explicit rules about fighting with light weapons. One handed and two handed weapons are never mentioned. As such, the rules treat both the same under the rules. As an example, a gillman can use a sea-knife and a Halberd. "This allows the wielder to use a two-handed weapon, or wield a weapon with one hand and carry a shield, and still make off-hand attacks with the sea-knife. Attacks made with a sea-knife take a –2 circumstance penalty on attack rolls in addition to all other attack penalties." This proves 2 handed weapons CAN be used in TWF and they aren't treated any different than any other non-light weapon.

As far as "Can you two weapon fight with bows": As long as you come up with all the arms/hands needed, I don't see why not. The double sling proves that ranged strength damage isn't 1/2 and the number of hands would be taken care of. Neither the ranged weapon entry or the 2 handed melee weapon entry mention a need for a primary hand.

Two weapon fighting is using your off hand to gain extra attacks with a second weapon. CRB pg 141 gives you the rules for using light and one-handed weapons in a primary or off hand. Two-handed weapons (and most projectile weapons) use two hands (both your primary and off hand).


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:


No, you see rules you don't like so you ignore them (which is fine), then you come to the rules forum and tell other people they don't exist (which is less fine).
Two-handed weapons are not prevented from two weapon fighting because they are Two-handed weapons. Two-handed weapons cannot be used in two weapon fighting because they require two hands to use. How many hands are required to use bows?

The only rules I don't like, that for the most part, I "ignore", are unwritten rules.

Bows require two hands to use, but do not follow the rules of two-handed weapons, because they are not two-handed weapons.

These are different. If you can prove otherwise, the burden of proof, is on you.

So you feel the rule is you cannot two weapon fight with Two-Handed Weapons because they are Two-Handed Weapons and not because they require two hands to use? So using a longsword (a One-Handed Weapon) in two hands still allows for two weapon fighting?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I can find no reason, that additional unwritten rules exist, to further contradict RAW, and have the Bow count as a two-handed weapon, solely for the unwritten restriction, regarding two-weapon fighting.

I can find no raw why humans don't have 12 arms either. The fact is that the game doesn't describe in minute detail how every day mundane objects work, nor does it need to. You are a human with bilateral symmetry: you know how many arms you have. A bow is not such an obscure device that you don't know how to fire one and you know its done with two hands.

Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted.

If you are trying to finagle some mechanical advantage out of the difference between a two handed weapon and a weapon that it takes two hands to use then stop. You are finagling, not reading.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I can find no reason, that additional unwritten rules exist, to further contradict RAW, and have the Bow count as a two-handed weapon, solely for the unwritten restriction, regarding two-weapon fighting.

I can find no raw why humans don't have 12 arms either. The fact is that the game doesn't describe in minute detail how every day mundane objects work, nor does it need to. You are a human with bilateral symmetry: you know how many arms you have. A bow is not such an obscure device that you don't know how to fire one and you know its done with two hands.

Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted.

If you are trying to finagle some mechanical advantage out of the difference between a two handed weapon and a weapon that it takes two hands to use then stop. You are finagling, not reading.

BBT isn't finagling. BBT is rightly continuing to press the absurdity that is the TWF/THW FAQ and the subsequent "explanation" by SKR that created more questions than it answered.

If you believe my statement to be erroneous then explain, without finagling, why a two-handed fighter can or cannot use the overhand chop ability with a bow.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
graystone wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
graystone wrote:
As far as "half Str damage instead of full Str", that isn't the rule. Using a light or one handed weapon in an offhand says that. Nothing says a ranged weapon has that. Note the Double Sling says NOTHING about 1/2 damage from your off hand attack. It just says add one attack and use TWF minuses. It doesn't say to take offhand penalties so full strength to all attacks. Don't see why other ranged weapons would differ.
So light weapons and one handed weapons have explict rules dealing with two weapon fighting and two handed weapons don't. Can you two weapon fight with two handed weapons?

You are wrong. TWF has explicit rules about fighting with light weapons. One handed and two handed weapons are never mentioned. As such, the rules treat both the same under the rules. As an example, a gillman can use a sea-knife and a Halberd. "This allows the wielder to use a two-handed weapon, or wield a weapon with one hand and carry a shield, and still make off-hand attacks with the sea-knife. Attacks made with a sea-knife take a –2 circumstance penalty on attack rolls in addition to all other attack penalties." This proves 2 handed weapons CAN be used in TWF and they aren't treated any different than any other non-light weapon.

As far as "Can you two weapon fight with bows": As long as you come up with all the arms/hands needed, I don't see why not. The double sling proves that ranged strength damage isn't 1/2 and the number of hands would be taken care of. Neither the ranged weapon entry or the 2 handed melee weapon entry mention a need for a primary hand.

Two weapon fighting is using your off hand to gain extra attacks with a second weapon. CRB pg 141 gives you the rules for using light and one-handed weapons in a primary or off hand. Two-handed weapons (and most projectile weapons) use two hands (both your primary and off hand).

Those rules don't say what you think they say. They have something about one-handed for MELEE attacks. Only light weapons don't mention melee damage. So AGAIN, ranged attacks don't see any difference in strength damage unless it's light AND in an offhand. Though the section IS about melee weapons so it's even debatable the light part is useful.

One handed: "Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand."

So again, there are NO rules for anything other than light weapons under two weapon fighting. Now melee weapons have additional rules that add to those rules.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted.

Now are those metaphorical hands, real hands or some other kind of hands they haven't told us about?


Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.

Longbow: At almost 5 feet in height, a longbow is made up of one solid piece of carefully curved wood. You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a Strength bonus, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below), but not when you use a regular longbow.

Shortbow: A shortbow is made up of one piece of wood, about 3 feet in length. You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a shortbow while mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a shortbow. If you have a bonus for high Strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite shortbow (see below), but not a regular shortbow.


graystone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted.
Now are those metaphorical hands, real hands or some other kind of hands they haven't told us about?

Whichever gives you the least mechanical advantage.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigDTBone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I can find no reason, that additional unwritten rules exist, to further contradict RAW, and have the Bow count as a two-handed weapon, solely for the unwritten restriction, regarding two-weapon fighting.

I can find no raw why humans don't have 12 arms either. The fact is that the game doesn't describe in minute detail how every day mundane objects work, nor does it need to. You are a human with bilateral symmetry: you know how many arms you have. A bow is not such an obscure device that you don't know how to fire one and you know its done with two hands.

Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted.

If you are trying to finagle some mechanical advantage out of the difference between a two handed weapon and a weapon that it takes two hands to use then stop. You are finagling, not reading.

BBT isn't finagling. BBT is rightly continuing to press the absurdity that is the TWF/THW FAQ and the subsequent "explanation" by SKR that created more questions than it answered.

If you believe my statement to be erroneous then explain, without finagling, why a two-handed fighter can or cannot use the overhand chop ability with a bow.

BBT is looking to sow confusion in the hopes the devs will revisit a ruling he dislikes.

Disliking a ruling is fine.
Hoping the devs will revisit a ruling is fine.
Lying about the rules should not be acceptable.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses...

Ok, so? I'm not seeing how the melee section of your post has ANY effect on the second part of the post. What part of your post points out that ranged off hand attacks deal 1/2 damage? Just post THAT part. Sadly, you even highlighted the part that proves you wrong. Each melee type section says melee damage.

As to off hand, I ask again. So? If you could the bow as 2 handed it says "Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon" and "You need two hands to use a bow". Two off hands are 2 hands. None of the sections on weapons used in two hands require a primary hand.

So you're missing a rule on off hand ranged strength damage and two handed weapons needing a primary hand. Want to keep going?


I never said off-hand ranged attacks deal half damage.

"Two hands required" refer to your primary and off-hands.

Humans don't have two off hands.


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Also note: under two weapon fighting there are rules for thrown weapons but not projectile weapons.


The thought of dual wielding bows just brings this to my mind.


BigDTBone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I can find no reason, that additional unwritten rules exist, to further contradict RAW, and have the Bow count as a two-handed weapon, solely for the unwritten restriction, regarding two-weapon fighting.

I can find no raw why humans don't have 12 arms either. The fact is that the game doesn't describe in minute detail how every day mundane objects work, nor does it need to. You are a human with bilateral symmetry: you know how many arms you have. A bow is not such an obscure device that you don't know how to fire one and you know its done with two hands.

Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted.

If you are trying to finagle some mechanical advantage out of the difference between a two handed weapon and a weapon that it takes two hands to use then stop. You are finagling, not reading.

BBT isn't finagling. BBT is rightly continuing to press the absurdity that is the TWF/THW FAQ and the subsequent "explanation" by SKR that created more questions than it answered.

If you believe my statement to be erroneous then explain, without finagling, why a two-handed fighter can or cannot use the overhand chop ability with a bow.

a Two-handed fighter can maybe use overhand chop with a bow as an improved weapon.

Overhand chop needs a two-handed weapon, bows used as intended are not two-handed weapons. They are weapons that need two hands to wield. The FAQ you all are so upset about talks about how if you wield a weapon with two hands you don't have an off-hand to use. If you believe this is incorrect then do you believe that if you use a longsword wielded with two hands that you could use armor spikes?


graystone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted.
Now are those metaphorical hands, real hands or some other kind of hands they haven't told us about?

Bows need two real hands and use up both metaphorical hands. So if you used 1 metaphorical hand you couldn't use the other metaphorical hand to use two hands to use a bow.


Chess Pwn wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I can find no reason, that additional unwritten rules exist, to further contradict RAW, and have the Bow count as a two-handed weapon, solely for the unwritten restriction, regarding two-weapon fighting.

I can find no raw why humans don't have 12 arms either. The fact is that the game doesn't describe in minute detail how every day mundane objects work, nor does it need to. You are a human with bilateral symmetry: you know how many arms you have. A bow is not such an obscure device that you don't know how to fire one and you know its done with two hands.

Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted.

If you are trying to finagle some mechanical advantage out of the difference between a two handed weapon and a weapon that it takes two hands to use then stop. You are finagling, not reading.

BBT isn't finagling. BBT is rightly continuing to press the absurdity that is the TWF/THW FAQ and the subsequent "explanation" by SKR that created more questions than it answered.

If you believe my statement to be erroneous then explain, without finagling, why a two-handed fighter can or cannot use the overhand chop ability with a bow.

a Two-handed fighter can maybe use overhand chop with a bow as an improved weapon.

Overhand chop needs a two-handed weapon, bows used as intended are not two-handed weapons. They are weapons that need two hands to wield. The FAQ you all are so upset about talks about how if you wield a weapon with two hands you don't have an off-hand to use. If you believe this is incorrect then do you believe that if you use a longsword wielded with two hands that you could use armor spikes?

Now who's finagling?

Either (a) bows are not two-handed weapons and do not consume your off hand attack; is true

Or (b) bows are two-handed weapons and you get to use overhand chop with them under normal conditions

You can't pick and choose from those options without "finagling."


Chess Pwn wrote:
graystone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted.
Now are those metaphorical hands, real hands or some other kind of hands they haven't told us about?
Bows need two real hands and use up both metaphorical hands. So if you used 1 metaphorical hand you couldn't use the other metaphorical hand to use two hands to use a bow.

How do you know they use the metaphorical hands? Where is it stated or what mechanical benefit can you point to to imply it?


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

I never said off-hand ranged attacks deal half damage.

"Two hands required" refer to your primary and off-hands.

Humans don't have two off hands.

#1: Please provide quote for ""Two hands required" refer to your primary and off-hands." My book only says 2 hands.

#2 "Humans don't have two off hands.": They don't normally but they can get them. This thread is "Can I ever dual wield Longbows as a human?" not 'can humans normally wield longbows."

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Also note: under two weapon fighting there are rules for thrown weapons but not projectile weapons.

You are mistaken. They have rules for fighting with two weapons but they aren't limited by type. It's just that some types get special rules such as light in offhand drops minuses.

Nothing in the TWF rules excludes ranged attacks/weapons. In fact, check out the new tech book. You have archetypes that "gains the benefits of the Two Weapon Fighting feat" when fighting with a gun and a melee weapon. No extra rules since ranged weapons ALREADY fall under two weapon fighting.


BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I can find no reason, that additional unwritten rules exist, to further contradict RAW, and have the Bow count as a two-handed weapon, solely for the unwritten restriction, regarding two-weapon fighting.

I can find no raw why humans don't have 12 arms either. The fact is that the game doesn't describe in minute detail how every day mundane objects work, nor does it need to. You are a human with bilateral symmetry: you know how many arms you have. A bow is not such an obscure device that you don't know how to fire one and you know its done with two hands.

Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted.

If you are trying to finagle some mechanical advantage out of the difference between a two handed weapon and a weapon that it takes two hands to use then stop. You are finagling, not reading.

BBT isn't finagling. BBT is rightly continuing to press the absurdity that is the TWF/THW FAQ and the subsequent "explanation" by SKR that created more questions than it answered.

If you believe my statement to be erroneous then explain, without finagling, why a two-handed fighter can or cannot use the overhand chop ability with a bow.

a Two-handed fighter can maybe use overhand chop with a bow as an improved weapon.

Overhand chop needs a two-handed weapon, bows used as intended are not two-handed weapons. They are weapons that need two hands to wield. The FAQ you all are so upset about talks about how if you wield a weapon with two hands you don't have an off-hand to use. If you believe this is incorrect then do you believe that if you use a longsword wielded with two hands that you could use armor spikes?

Now who's finagling?

Either (a) bows are not two-handed weapons and do not consume your off hand attack; is true

Or (b) bows are two-handed weapons and you get to use overhand chop...

do you believe that if you use a longsword wielded with two hands that you could use armor spikes?


Chess Pwn wrote:
do you believe that if you use a longsword wielded with two hands that you could use armor spikes?

No, but I believe I can use overhand chop with a longsword. Are you saying you believe that a character can overhand chop with a bow under normal conditions?


BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
do you believe that if you use a longsword wielded with two hands that you could use armor spikes?
No, but I believe I can use overhand chop with a longsword. Are you saying you believe that a character can overhand chop with a bow under normal conditions?

No, I've already said so.

chesspwn wrote:
Overhand chop needs a two-handed weapon, bows used as intended are not two-handed weapons.

Now if I had known we were going off of your house-rules my story would have been different. I thought we were following rules put out by Paizo. But under yours I have no idea how it would work, you're probably right in everything.

Now with Paizo rules you can not overhand chop with a longsword.

But this was good. I now know you're working off your own rules, thus making your argument make a lot more sense.


Chess Pwn wrote:
do you believe that if you use a longsword wielded with two hands that you could use armor spikes?

I know you can use a longsword wielded with two hands while using a sea-knife.


Chess Pwn wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
do you believe that if you use a longsword wielded with two hands that you could use armor spikes?
No, but I believe I can use overhand chop with a longsword. Are you saying you believe that a character can overhand chop with a bow under normal conditions?

No, I've already said so.

chesspwn wrote:
Overhand chop needs a two-handed weapon, bows used as intended are not two-handed weapons.

Now if I had known we were going off of your house-rules my story would have been different. I thought we were following rules put out by Paizo. But under yours I have no idea how it would work, you're probably right in everything.

Now with Paizo rules you can not overhand chop with a longsword.

But this was good. I now know you're working off your own rules, thus making your argument make a lot more sense.

Now, explain the difference between Two-handed weapons, A weapons you wield in two hands, and bows.


graystone wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

I never said off-hand ranged attacks deal half damage.

"Two hands required" refer to your primary and off-hands.

Humans don't have two off hands.

#1: Please provide quote for ""Two hands required" refer to your primary and off-hands." My book only says 2 hands.

#2 "Humans don't have two off hands.": They don't normally but they can get them. This thread is "Can I ever dual wield Longbows as a human?" not 'can humans normally wield longbows."

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Also note: under two weapon fighting there are rules for thrown weapons but not projectile weapons.

You are mistaken. They have rules for fighting with two weapons but they aren't limited by type. It's just that some types get special rules such as light in offhand drops minuses.

Nothing in the TWF rules excludes ranged attacks/weapons. In fact, check out the new tech book. You have archetypes that "gains the benefits of the Two Weapon Fighting feat" when fighting with a gun and a melee weapon. No extra rules since ranged weapons ALREADY fall under two weapon fighting.

Ah, I see what the problem is. I don't need rules denying two weapon fighting with bows. You need rules that permit it.


BigDTBone wrote:


Now, explain the difference between Two-handed weapons, A weapons you wield in two hands, and bows.

Link


BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
do you believe that if you use a longsword wielded with two hands that you could use armor spikes?
No, but I believe I can use overhand chop with a longsword. Are you saying you believe that a character can overhand chop with a bow under normal conditions?

No, I've already said so.

chesspwn wrote:
Overhand chop needs a two-handed weapon, bows used as intended are not two-handed weapons.

Now if I had known we were going off of your house-rules my story would have been different. I thought we were following rules put out by Paizo. But under yours I have no idea how it would work, you're probably right in everything.

Now with Paizo rules you can not overhand chop with a longsword.

But this was good. I now know you're working off your own rules, thus making your argument make a lot more sense.

Now, explain the difference between Two-handed weapons, A weapons you wield in two hands, and bows.

A Two-Handed Weapon or THW is a catagory of weapon. It takes two hands to wield.

A weapon you wield in two hands is any weapon you are using two hands to use, be it needed (examples greatswords(THW) or bows(ranged weapon)) or not (examples longswords(one-handed weapon) or daggers(light weapon).
Now wielding with two hands doesn't always give benefits, like it doesn't do anything for a dagger (that I know of).

Bows are a specific subset of ranged weapons that need two hands to wield. So there's not a difference between bows and "a weapons you wield in two hands" because a bow is one weapon that you wield with two hands.

I hope that was clear. If you please don't understand of if you have more questions I'll try to help you have what you're wanting.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:


Ah, I see what the problem is. I don't need rules denying two weapon fighting with bows. You need rules that permit it.

How? What part or the rules don't apply? All the rules say is weapon. Now thrown and double weapons get an extra section (mainly pointing out light or one hand equivalents) but unless you are saying that ranged weapons aren't weapons I don't see how you can say they don't apply under the two weapon rules for weapons. The words ranged and melee don't show up in the actual two weapon fighting section, the two weapon/multiweapon feats.

If you think it doesn't apply, it's because you've added an extra restriction for ranged not that the RAW prohibit them.


graystone wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:


Ah, I see what the problem is. I don't need rules denying two weapon fighting with bows. You need rules that permit it.

How? What part or the rules don't apply? All the rules say is weapon. Now thrown and double weapons get an extra section (mainly pointing out light or one hand equivalents) but unless you are saying that ranged weapons aren't weapons I don't see how you can say they don't apply under the two weapon rules for weapons. The words ranged and melee don't show up in the actual two weapon fighting section, the two weapon/multiweapon feats.

If you think it doesn't apply, it's because you've added an extra restriction for ranged not that the RAW prohibit them.

Then you don't understand how Pathfinder works. There are rules for two weapon fighting with light weapons, one-handed weapons, double weapons, thrown weapons, and crossbows. There are not rules for two weapon fighting with two-handed weapons or projectile weapons. Are you seeing any sort of pattern here?


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
graystone wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:


Ah, I see what the problem is. I don't need rules denying two weapon fighting with bows. You need rules that permit it.

How? What part or the rules don't apply? All the rules say is weapon. Now thrown and double weapons get an extra section (mainly pointing out light or one hand equivalents) but unless you are saying that ranged weapons aren't weapons I don't see how you can say they don't apply under the two weapon rules for weapons. The words ranged and melee don't show up in the actual two weapon fighting section, the two weapon/multiweapon feats.

If you think it doesn't apply, it's because you've added an extra restriction for ranged not that the RAW prohibit them.

Then you don't understand how Pathfinder works. There are rules for two weapon fighting with light weapons, one-handed weapons, double weapons, thrown weapons, and crossbows. There are not rules for two weapon fighting with two-handed weapons or projectile weapons. Are you seeing any sort of pattern here?

No, no, no, no. YOU are the one seeming to misunderstand. There are the two weapon rules. They only call out light weapons as being different for minuses.

one-handed weapons: NO where in the two weapon fighting rules are one handed weapons mentioned. The only thing tangentially connected to it is the one handed weapon entry saying it can be used in an off hand.
double weapons: Have special rules allowing lesser minuses on off end.
thrown weapons: Some can be treated as light/one handed.
crossbows: Have non-standard minuses or are treated as light.

So, lets review. The basic rules allow two weapons and make NO mention of ranged/melee. If something deviates from the basic rules, it gets an exemption rule. If you're stance is 'no ranged because it doesn't say it' then the same goes for one handed weapons as they are not mentioned.


And this is why I can't open the core rule book and try to point out a rule without someone thinking I'm up to something.

Thank you for giving rules lawyers a bad name.


Edit: I'm done. The correct rules are posted for those interested.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:


Except we have rules for one-handed weapons. I've mentioned...

That only states it can be used in an off hand. I mentioned it in my post actually... We're going around in a circle and it seems unlikely that we'll change each others minds.

BigNorseWolf: I'm sorry you feel this way, but I don't see this as being a rules lawyer. I'm taking the rules at face value. There is a rule that you can use 2 weapons at the same time. It makes NO restriction on the kinds of weapons used though some weapons get extra rules to use with it. Nothing Durngrun has said has changed this view of the RAW.

As far as the OP's question, I find the only hurtle to using 2 bows in two/multi-weapon fighting is getting the extra hands to use the bows. Nothing in the weapon section or the combat section leads me to believe that ranged weapons can not be used like any other weapon in two/multi-weapon fighting.


Just for my curiosity, graystone, do you believe someone with four arms could dual wield two-handed Melee weapons?


Okay, first of all... everyone realizes this argument is silly? RAI, it's blatantly obviously that you're not meant to dual wield bows.

But just for fun:

Quote:

Now who's finagling?

Either (a) bows are not two-handed weapons and do not consume your off hand attack; is true

Or (b) bows are two-handed weapons and you get to use overhand chop with them under normal conditions

You can't pick and choose from those options without "finagling."

That's a black and white fallacy there.

Let's go with:

(c) bows are not two-handed weapons but STILL consume your off hand

The second hand is required to draw the bowstring, position the arrow, etc. Barring other specific rules sources, I would even say a bow would be used as a one handed improvised melee weapon if you try to use it at such, despite it requiring two hands when used normally as a ranged weapon.

Hmn, so I guess I would let you dual wield two bows after all... if you're using them as improvised melee weapons. ;)

Scarab Sages

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Just for my curiosity, graystone, do you believe someone with four arms could dual wield two-handed Melee weapons?

By RAW, yes, but the penalties would be horrendous.


Artanthos wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Just for my curiosity, graystone, do you believe someone with four arms could dual wield two-handed Melee weapons?
By RAW, yes, but the penalties would be horrendous.

Actually you can't. Read the thread BBT linked if you wish to know more.


Artanthos wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Just for my curiosity, graystone, do you believe someone with four arms could dual wield two-handed Melee weapons?
By RAW, yes, but the penalties would be horrendous.

You can't, dualwielding doesn't happen if you have a two-handed weapon as from the FAQ. And vestigial arms don't change that at all.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

...

okay, the difference between a (A)two-handed weapon, (B) weapon that is wielded in two-hands, and (C) bows.

A. a melee weapon that MUST be wielded in two-hands
B. a weapon wielded using two-hands, melee weapons can apply 1.5 str mod to damage.
C. a ranged weapon that requires two hands to be used.

unwritten rules you never knew you believed in: humans and most other races have 2 hands and 2 feet, your character has eyes, your character has the ability to speak, gold/GP is actually made out of gold, you can hold something in your hand and not perform an action to keep it in your hand, your character doesn't suffocate while breathing air.

the list goes on, there are simply some things the rule book assumes are true. like a character only has one primary hand and one off-hand unless otherwise stated, and that two-handed weapons use up your primary and one off-hand. there are no rules that allow a two-handed weapon to be wielded in two-off hands. the rules say BOTH not two- for two-handed weapons, aka it suggests it uses ALL of your hands and that you have don't have 3 or more, or one or less.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Just for my curiosity, graystone, do you believe someone with four arms could dual wield two-handed Melee weapons?

Yes, why wouldn't they? The rules say "Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively." UE PRD

Two off hands ARE two hands after all. And before you ask "but what damage would you use!", I'd say just like natural weapons. You have a single natural weapon it deals one and a half strength but when used in addition to a weapon it drops to 1/2 strength damage. So 1 1/2 damage on 'primary' attack and 1/2 on 'off-hand' attack.

Also, you can already use 1 two handed weapon in 2 weapon combat. (sea-knife text)

Chess Pwn: The question was about creatures with 4 natural arms NOT two arms + 2 vestigial arms.

Bandw2: Which rule says both? When I looked it up it says 2 hands. Please post.

EDIT: On BTW's post Durngrun, I don't see what part of it would stop what we're talking about. Please point me towards what you're talking about.

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