From Dual-Cursed Oracle (Archetype) - Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.
Can I do this to allies when they miss an attack or fail a save?
Actually I posted here on purpose because the argument thus far is that per PFS rules the forced reroll is a PVP action. Even if I'm having them reroll an obvious miss.
There is also the point that if a player misses with a 7 in a round, The next round they roll another 7 I can't have them reroll because I know that the result was a miss.
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You can lob a Fireball at your party members, so long as you have their consent.
Using Misfortune on them is no different. If they don't want your Misfortune, they don't have to take it.
But, next time, please include any "hidden motivations" you have behind your original post. We're an open community here, and we respond best if you're not playing games with us. It will help us address the real question you have.
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The PVP rule is really badly titled.
It isn't no PVP.
It is no PK
No you don't know the second 7 is a miss.
The first round the creature might have had a circumstance bonus. This round it might have a penalty. The GM may have misread the stat block last time, and be feeling guilty now.
Until the GM says it is a miss (or a player being hit says "it is a hit" ) it is still fair game.
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It's not PVP because it's not causing any harm to the other players.
As a GM, however, if another player didn't want to be misfortuned, I would not allow you to misfortune another player. I find it rude, both as a player and as a GM, when other players with misfortne get cocky and force other players to use their re-rolls. Tables get passive aggressive really fast when that starts happening.
It seems to settles as legal per RAW. The current argument is RAW vs RAI. Since a power named Misfortune is clearly not intended to help. I can yell "Legal per RAW" all I want but I have to get along with the GM.
Actually I posted here on purpose because the argument thus far is that per PFS rules the forced reroll is a PVP action.The No PVP rule says you cannot intentionally kill another PC. Forcing them to reroll a failed save is not intentionally killing them.
Well, assuming they think they've failed your right. There's a few characters where i'd say "No, you know what I think I'm good with a 2 on the die."
Every dm is going to do this slightly differently. Generally you want the other players permission before you do anything to their character, they should get the hint of what you're doing after a good reroll or two.
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Misfortune specifically states you must take the worse result.
Edit: The definition of Misfortune is different for Dual Cursed Oracle than it is for Witch. Strange. I wonder if this is a typo? As per the Oracle definition, you would be ok trying to help your party like that. If you go by the Witch definition, you can only make things worse.
Misfortune specifically states you must take the worse result. Do you not have the fortune hex?
That's the witch's misfortune hex.
At discussion here is the dual-cursed oracle's misfortune ability, which (oops) lacks the "take the worse" wording, thus opening a buffing exploit.
(Ninja'd because of my italics usage! :P)
Yup, my life oracle has saved a few lives with a reroll on a failed save, and a few by making the bad guys reroll a crit!
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Since a power named Misfortune is clearly not intended to help.
It's at least unfortunate for the enemy if you can reroll a failed save or attack roll...
It seems to settles as legal per RAW. The current argument is RAW vs RAI. Since a power named Misfortune is clearly not intended to help. I can yell "Legal per RAW" all I want but I have to get along with the GM.
Ehh, when you use an ability to help another player it is rare the Dm get bothered.
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It seems to settles as legal per RAW. The current argument is RAW vs RAI. Since a power named Misfortune is clearly not intended to help. I can yell "Legal per RAW" all I want but I have to get along with the GM.
RAI is a futile argument, since no one can telepathically communicate with the authors. All we have is the written word. GMs can not contradict explicit mechanics that are legal by RAW in PFS. "Getting along" is an issue for your VOs to iron out if the GM persists. It's NOT their home game.
This came up in a game the other night, how is the oracle supposed to use this if the GM is rolling behind a screen? Doesn't it take the whole point of the ability away? minus the bit about helping your allies
This you should work out with your dm. Alert them you have the ability.
Some will have you say a number before the die is rolled others will allow you after they annouce success or failure but before the result fo that are revieled. A rare few say the abiltiy can nto be used on npcs because they roll behind a screen.
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This came up in a game the other night, how is the oracle supposed to use this if the GM is rolling behind a screen? Doesn't it take the whole point of the ability away? minus the bit about helping your allies
I always encourage GMs to put away their screens. I haven't used one for years. It fosters trust amongst your players, and generates excitement every time a natural 1 or 20 is rolled.
What about if someone rolls a "1" on a save or attack roll? You automatically know the result is a failure as soon as the die finishes rolling. Would this preclude using Misfortune under those circumstances?
That is why when I DM I interept "before the result are known" as when I as a DM release the outcomes of roll. IE after you fail or succeed you can misfortune, but before the damage or the effects take place.
What about if someone rolls a "1" on a save or attack roll? You automatically know the result is a failure as soon as the die finishes rolling. Would this preclude using Misfortune under those circumstances?
Some GMs use that to say you cannot misfortune a 1 or a 20. Table variation.
GMs who roll behind a screen usually ask for a "threshold" for the reroll ability and will announce it's use accordingly.
In my non-PFS home campaign, if someone takes misfortune revelation, he does not get to know any die roll. He must blindly announce his use of misfortune because your divine powers do not give you some kind of preternatural ability to see the die rolls. This is a strict ruling on misfortune, but it's not out of line either.
For PFS games, I roll behind a screen. Players can say "I want crit-threats rerolled." I've had GMs say to players "A nat-20 is an auto-success; you can misfortune the NPC's confirmation roll." That's not unreasonable either.
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In my non-PFS home campaign, if someone takes misfortune revelation, he does not get to know any die roll. He must blindly announce his use of misfortune because your divine powers do not give you some kind of preternatural ability to see the die rolls. This is a strict ruling on misfortune, but it's not out of line either.
I'll take something useful but then have it bent to nigh unusability for 200, Alex.
I'll take something useful but then have it bent to nigh unusability for 200, Alex.
In my non-PFS home campaign, if someone takes misfortune revelation, he does not get to know any die roll. He must blindly announce his use of misfortune because your divine powers do not give you some kind of preternatural ability to see the die rolls. This is a strict ruling on misfortune, but it's not out of line either.
No one at the table likes misfortune, and there was already a pact to never use it. This was to drive the point home.
This came up in a game the other night, how is the oracle supposed to use this if the GM is rolling behind a screen? Doesn't it take the whole point of the ability away? minus the bit about helping your allies
I've seen this on the boards before. I'm an open rolling GM unless needed, so I don't have this issue, but the general consensus is to ask your GM "if the monster rolls and 18-20 on the dice, and I'm in range I misfortune it." or something to that effect. I've heard it works pretty well, though pretty much everyone I game with rolls in the open, except a couple GM's for PFS at FLGS, but my Misfortune Life Oracle has never been at one of their tables.
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I'll take something useful but then have it bent to nigh unusability for 200, Alex.
In my non-PFS home campaign, if someone takes misfortune revelation, he does not get to know any die roll. He must blindly announce his use of misfortune because your divine powers do not give you some kind of preternatural ability to see the die rolls. This is a strict ruling on misfortune, but it's not out of line either.
Yeah, crystal-clear case of a spiteful GM nerfing an ability in his own private world to "prove a point." Sounds like there's a lot of anger involved, rather than a simple balance issue.
What happens if you take abundant revelations for misfortune?
Yeah, crystal-clear case of a spiteful GM nerfing an ability in his own private world to "prove a point." Sounds like there's a lot of anger involved, rather than a simple balance issue.I'll take something useful but then have it bent to nigh unusability for 200, Alex.
In my non-PFS home campaign, if someone takes misfortune revelation, he does not get to know any die roll. He must blindly announce his use of misfortune because your divine powers do not give you some kind of preternatural ability to see the die rolls. This is a strict ruling on misfortune, but it's not out of line either.
Yeah, super spiteful, considering we came up with that rule as a group. Players have equal spite for it, too.
What happens if you take abundant revelations for misfortune?
Benefit: Choose one of your revelations that has a number of uses per day. You gain 1 additional use per day of that revelation.
Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.
Misfortune has no limit to how often it can be used. Only a very explicit limitation on how often it can target a specific creature. Abundant Revelation would not change that limitation.
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Yeah, crystal-clear case of a spiteful GM nerfing an ability in his own private world to "prove a point." Sounds like there's a lot of anger involved, rather than a simple balance issue.I'll take something useful but then have it bent to nigh unusability for 200, Alex.
In my non-PFS home campaign, if someone takes misfortune revelation, he does not get to know any die roll. He must blindly announce his use of misfortune because your divine powers do not give you some kind of preternatural ability to see the die rolls. This is a strict ruling on misfortune, but it's not out of line either.
As one of the people in downer's home game, I am 100% behind her decision. Misfortune Oracles tend to slow the game down, in my opinion, and I'm glad that the others in the home game agree. Would you kindly learn to show some respect to others on the board? This is a community, it would behoove you to treat others better.
When I run for any Misfortune Oracles in PFS, I let them know that my die rolls are hidden, but I work with them to set reasonable conditions to use Misfortune, if the bad guys roll a Nat 20 on an attack, or something similar. Open die rolls are not something that a GM has to do, and I've seen some Misfortune Oracles act like they are entitled to force the GM to play the game the way that the dictate.
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Ban the revelation then, don't re-word the ability to mock its intent, heh. As I thought, there's a lot of emotion here. It seems both of you are actively offended by the fact that the ability exists.
As a sidenote, the idea that a once-per-creature reroll will slow the game down is silly. I've played and GM'd for several Misfortune oracles and there is no slowdown of the game.
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Ban the revelation then, don't re-word the ability to mock its intent, heh. As I thought, there's a lot of emotion here. It seems both of you are actively offended by the fact that the ability exists.
As a sidenote, the idea that a once-per-creature reroll will slow the game down is silly. I've played and GM'd for several Misfortune oracles and there is no slowdown of the game.
QFT
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I'm less offended by the ability than by how people with the ability have acted at my table. I've had a Misfortune oracle stop me after every die roll to see what the die roll was. Asking, "Does a 25 hit?" to have them go, "Hmm, that's a twelve on the die? I don't know, I guess I'll let it go." Now imagine that after every roll in every combat and tell me that doesn't slow the game down. That is why I rule the way I do now, if it just happened once in a while, it wouldn't be so bad, but enough times and it starts to add up.
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If it's taking too long in your games, it's either the player or the GM that's doing it.
My group, playing up in Bonekeep 2, with two Misfortune Oracles, completed the entire dungeon an hour early. And we were liberally making enemies reroll.
YMMV, but if it does, it's not the ability that's at fault.
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I'm less offended by the ability than by how people with the ability have acted at my table. I've had a Misfortune oracle stop me after every die roll to see what the die roll was. Asking, "Does a 25 hit?" to have them go, "Hmm, that's a twelve on the die? I don't know, I guess I'll let it go." Now imagine that after every roll in every combat and tell me that doesn't slow the game down. That is why I rule the way I do now, if it just happened once in a while, it wouldn't be so bad, but enough times and it starts to add up.
That's the player's fault, not the ability. For someone like that, you're probably going to see slowdowns from a lot of things, not just a re-rolling power.
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@downerbeautiful & UndeadMitch: That is not a ruling I would be willing to sit still for, but your mileage may vary. The main issue I have is that the original post on the limitation was phrased in such a way that it made my hackles rise, and think that I wouldn't want to sit with such a GM.
As mentioned, it wasn't the ability but the player causing an issue. By the time you finish banning everything that slows that player down, you are probably playing Amber rather than Pathfinder.
One of the problems I have, as a player and GM, is when someone has to calculate, from scratch, for the umpteenth time, their attack bonus. "I rolled a 5, I am at +6 from BAB, +5 from Str, +1 from Weapon Training, +1 from Weapon Focus, +1 from the weapon's magic, etc." Yeesh. I am holding myself back, usually, from giving their total from just a glance at the die and previous turns.
For my PCs' more complex stuff, I usually try to setup cheat sheets beforehand, or have the numbers used to get the final modifier avaialble iuf asked, but I will usually, at that point, be looking at the die, and telling the GM, "34 to disarm, not counting cover or prone. Is that modified total 10 or more higher than their CMD?"
Ban the revelation then, don't re-word the ability to mock its intent, heh. As I thought, there's a lot of emotion here. It seems both of you are actively offended by the fact that the ability exists.
As a sidenote, the idea that a once-per-creature reroll will slow the game down is silly. I've played and GM'd for several Misfortune oracles and there is no slowdown of the game.
The problem isn't that the ability exists, the problem is that it was clearly intended to be a debuff to your enemies, but instead it either debuffs your enemies OR acts just like the fortune hex at will. The raw and intent appear to be off.
As Andreas Forster said above, your ally miraculously turning a horrible miss into a hit with your supernatural aid certainly adds to someone's misfortune. And isn't that what it's all about, making sure at least someone is miserable?