Creating armor from monsters


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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Having just defeated a colossal scorpion, I thought it would be cool to use Fabricate to crank out a unique set of armor for our fighter. So I checked out the special materials to see if it would work and made some interesting realizations.

1) The size of a creature and the amount of armor produced from it vary dramatically. IE from one huge bulette, we can get 2 suites of plate mail AND 4 sides of leather. However to get 1 single set of platemail from a dragon, it must be colossal.

2) The AC of the base creature does not seem to have much impact on the quality of the armor crafted from it. In other words a colossal red dragon with natural armor + 39 makes the same quality armor as you get from an old white dragon whose natural ac bonus is only +23.

I guess what I am saying is I would like to see more rules for natural armors. I'd like to see a more consistent base line for how much armor can be harvested, and I'd like to see better armors being crafted from truly powerful monserous adversaries. Am I the only one to have ever felt this way?

SRD said wrote:
A single adult male bulette has enough armor plating and hide to produce two sets of Medium bulette plate mail and four sets of Medium leather or studded leather armor... crafted bulette armor may be normal or masterwork quality. A set of bulette plate is functionally similar to metal full plate... Bulette full plate is slightly heavier (65 pounds) than regular steel plate, but is more flexible and durable (max Dex bonus +2, hardness 12).
SRD said wrote:
One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a light or heavy masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger.

Dark Archive

First off, armor made from a Scorpion's carapace is kind of the coolest idea ever. I approve.

But as for the rules about crafting them, I think they went with a more game mechanic over logic decision. Logically, after fighting most dragons, there would be so much material that a crafter type should be able to build amazing suits of armor for all of their party. I have no clue how much leather actually goes into making a leather suit of armor, but I would guess that dragons provide more than enough for several suits. But mechanically, they don't want players to kill a dragon, then give access to several suits of amazing armor plus the dragon's hoard (assuming it has one).

If I was the GM in this situation, I would say the scorpions armor would reduce the price or time needed to craft armor with an enhancement bonus. It doesn't translate into whatever huge Natural Armor a giant scorpion has, but it lets you make a really cool set of armor for cheaper/faster.

The Exchange

This is one of those things I'm going to have to seriously house rule in my games. Logic has to overcome game convenience in this matter.


I don't think that's true James. Why can't it be both, with how heavy the natural armor of the dragon is, it must be pretty difficult to harvest and work with, meaning only choice areas might be easily workable.


James Stephens 4 wrote:
This is one of those things I'm going to have to seriously house rule in my games. Logic has to overcome game convenience in this matter.

I think that would only be appropriate if that was THE way to get more powerful armor. As in, killing a newly hatched dragon got you masterwork armor, but higher category ones gave +x enhancement bonus.

And this was the only way to get an enhancement bonus on armors (and maybe other choice items like weapons).

I would be an interesting houserule for a dragonslaying centered game, no? Maybe something a bit more low magic, where you can only gain magical items by harvesting parts from magical creatures.


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The Indescribable wrote:
I don't think that's true James. Why can't it be both, with how heavy the natural armor of the dragon is, it must be pretty difficult to harvest and work with, meaning only choice areas might be easily workable.

It turns out that dragon plate is made entirely of armpits.


blahpers wrote:
The Indescribable wrote:
I don't think that's true James. Why can't it be both, with how heavy the natural armor of the dragon is, it must be pretty difficult to harvest and work with, meaning only choice areas might be easily workable.
It turns out that dragon plate is made entirely of armpits.

Good lord, I thought druids were a bit disturbing already, but this is a whole new level when that is their preferred type of armor.


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I love me some Monster Hunter....

Actually I would love to see published material that addressed the harvesting and crafting of numerous things, not just armor, even though it is the sweetest example. I feel like more material could exist to benefit crafting skills, harvesting, gathering, for example. I would love to see more on alchemy as a profession and something you did without having to be the alchemist class.

But maybe thats just me...


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Kjeldor wrote:

I love me some Monster Hunter....

Actually I would love to see published material that addressed the harvesting and crafting of numerous things, not just armor, even though it is the sweetest example. I feel like more material could exist to benefit crafting skills, harvesting, gathering, for example. I would love to see more on alchemy as a profession and something you did without having to be the alchemist class.
But maybe thats just me...

Ditto. Like can you make a sweet javelin out of a wyvern tail? How about poisons from vermin? Way back in AD&D the Village of Hommlet described using certain monster blood in the mortar of a building to block teleportation or scrying I think. There are all kinds of cool things you could claim monstrous bits and pieces are useful for.

On another note, I guess you could say that as a dragon's natural armor gets higher, it could be that the scales are getting thicker and heavier so that you have to pick over more and more scales to find the ones suitable for crafting.


the Katapesh book has scorption breastplate, which basically is just masterwork breastplate stats but made out of a scorpion carapace.


Lo, these many years ago (2nd ed.), I played a diviner/savant/alchemist who went hog wild on dissecting, harvesting, and collecting the interesting bits of nearly every creature imaginable to use as ingredients in potions, oils, and a variety of other magical brews.

It was hugely entertaining to me and to the DM but really wierded out the group when I would crawl into something to get a bit of spleen.


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Dave Justus wrote:
the Katapesh book has scorption breastplate, which basically is just masterwork breastplate stats but made out of a scorpion carapace.

That's true, but what I am more interested in is how much armor can be made from any one critter. This is hard to judge by the rules as a it takes a colossal dragon to make one suit of medium plate mail, while a merely huge bullette can be turned into 2 suits of plate mail plus 4 suits of leather.

And on a more general note, what else can you make out of beasts and monsters? I just think it is really cool if some if not most of your gear is also trophies from your battles.


I love this idea. It is interesting and flavorful, and the natural armor rules really need some attention.

Right now natural armor seems to be more of a metagame-y function of challenge raging than of any actual indicator of how hard/tough a creature's hide is.

For example, an Adamantine Golem has a natural armor bonus of +29. The above mentioned red dragon has +39. That dragon's claws specifically aren't as hard as Adamantine, but for some reason it's skin is even harder. How does that make sense?


The rules aren't consistent because they were probably written at different times without consulting the existing examples of "making stuff from corpses". The system doesn't account for it, so anything that shows up in the monster's description is probably just thrown in.

I would personally treat it as raw materials for the Craft skill, with the amount of "value" worth of raw materials based on the size of the creature (crunch some numbers for a table and decide what you want). Honestly, you should probably be able to make a lot of armor out of a house-sized dragon.


I remember back in 2nd ed I killed a dragon and made suits of dragon plate for all of my followers. Although it seems realistic to be able to make 40 suits of armor from something that is 100 ft long, that is probably exactly what the new rules are trying to prevent. Thus the you can only use choice scales and bits to create quality armor...

but what if you are not interested in quality. Could you make a lot more armor if it is low quality. I would be ok with my followers just looking awesome even if the armor was actually poor quality.


Doomed Hero wrote:

an Adamantine Golem has a natural armor bonus of +29. The above mentioned red dragon has +39. That dragon's claws specifically aren't as hard as Adamantine, but for some reason it's skin is even harder. How does that make sense?

My first thought was by being thicker, but then again the golem is probably not hollow. So I don't know. If I wasn't so lazy I would look up how much each creature weighed and compute approximate density.


Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:

an Adamantine Golem has a natural armor bonus of +29. The above mentioned red dragon has +39. That dragon's claws specifically aren't as hard as Adamantine, but for some reason it's skin is even harder. How does that make sense?

My first thought was by being thicker, but then again the golem is probably not hollow. So I don't know. If I wasn't so lazy I would look up how much each creature weighed and compute approximate density.

That which does not bend, breaks. You must be like a reed, flowing with the wind, young grasshopper.

Ok, less ripping off martial arts movies- layers of thick fat and muscle could provide cushioning against blows, which also lose a lot of their force when they meet the hard scales. Golems are usually just one material all the way through.

To make a comparison to sword smithing- the best swords are usually made with both soft core (which would lose its edge quickly, but can absorb impacts well) along with a harder metal for the edge (which would keep fairly sharp, but would risk chipping and breaking more easily if it was the sole material).

The Exchange

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Oh, you like my Dwarven Leather armor?
**Dwarves don't be workin' leather...armor that dwarves make be metal!
Oh, no....I see your mistake. You thought I meant armor made by dwarves, not armor made of dwarves.....
**Gulp**


My current group has had fun with an iku-torso hide drum on their ship. (It killed a PC and then died a slow torturous death) and senior leaders in the NPC crew are kitted out with river drake leather coats. It added a nice touch I thought.


2nd ED Dragon Leather Armor:
2nd ED AC went from 10 down. AC references adjusted to PF usage
Dragon Hide: Dragon skin is prized by armorers with the skill to turn it into shields and armor, valuable because of its appearance and the protection it affords. Dragon armor grants its wearer an Armor Class of 4 less more than the Armor Class of the dragon it was taken from, for a minimum Armor Class of 8 12. For example, armor from a juvenile brass dragon (AC O 20) grants its wearer AC 4 16. Dragon armor is supple and non-bulky, weighing only 25 pounds.
The scales of gem dragons take on properties of actual gems; they are faceted and reflect light. They are slightly more brittle than those of other dragons, so armor made from them requires repair more often.
Dragon armor affords no extra protection, such as resistance to fire or cold, although the armor can be enchanted to provide such protection. A dragon's resistance to certain elements is based on its total makeup, not just its skin. Plain dragon armor is expensive to make, costing 1,000-10,000 gp, based on the workmanship and protection the armor affords. Dragon skin armor can be enchanted, just as other forms of armor can, to a maximum of +5.
Dragon shields also offer no additional protection. They are made of stretched hide over a wooden frame. Such shields weigh 3 pounds (if small) or 8 pounds (if large) and cost 20-120 or 30-180 gold pieces.

If I remember correctly, the best dragon had AC -12 22. The best Dragon Leather was AC -8 18 before enchantment.

/cevah


SteelDraco wrote:
I would personally treat it as raw materials for the Craft skill, with the amount of "value" worth of raw materials based on the size of the creature (crunch some numbers for a table and decide what you want). Honestly, you should probably be able to make a lot of armor out of a house-sized dragon.

I like this idea pretty well. It would be pretty easy to come up with a formula of creature size = x gp worth of armor materials, and to adjust other hoard level based on that if you are using the rule. What do people think of the idea of better natural armors creating better than plate armor? Not magic, just a higher armor bonus. If it iwas suitably expensive and difficult to craft it shouldn't creep into to low of level parties, but it may make armor more useful at high levels. That could skew encounter levels at high levels, or it could give martials a little boon.

I'm thinking a scaled monster with natural armor of +9 or higher can be used as plate mail. For every 10 points of natural armor the plate mail could provide an additional 1 point of armor. Ie a reddragon with a +39 natural armor could be turned into plate mail which provides an armor bonus of +12.

That isn't much better than plate, maybe it should be every 5 points over +9 yields +1 to armor in which case that same dragon hide would be turned into +15 armor, still enchantable to +5. Rules for shields might need to be different, or capped at +3.


Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
SteelDraco wrote:
I would personally treat it as raw materials for the Craft skill, with the amount of "value" worth of raw materials based on the size of the creature (crunch some numbers for a table and decide what you want). Honestly, you should probably be able to make a lot of armor out of a house-sized dragon.

I'm thinking a scaled monster with natural armor of +9 or higher can be used as plate mail. For every 10 points of natural armor the plate mail could provide an additional 1 point of armor. Ie a reddragon with a +39 natural armor could be turned into plate mail which provides an armor bonus of +12.

I'd say that partially depends on size, if it's not big enough it will just end up scale mail.


Cevah wrote:
If I remember correctly, the best dragon had AC -12 22. The best Dragon Leather was AC -8 18 before enchantment.

Been too long since I dealt with 2nd -> 3rd.

Those numbers should be 32 and 28, respectively.

/cevah

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