Question about the Swashbuckler's Perfect Thrust Deed

[The White W0rg]

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Perfect Thrust (Ex): At 15th level, while the swashbuckler has at least 1 panache point, she can as a full-round

action make a perfect thrust, pooling all of her attack
potential into a single melee attack made with a light
or one-handed piercing melee weapon. When she does,
she makes the attack against the target’s touch AC, and
ignores all damage reduction.

Does this ability mean that the swashbuckler rolls his/her damage dice a number of times equal to the number of attacks his BAB would give him/her for this attack, or does he/she roll damage normally? I'm wondering because my group sees valid arguments for both cases and were wondering what the intended way to handle it was. Thank you in advance to anyone who replies.

P.S. Fixed a royal error in the thread title.

[chaoseffect]

Looks like you only roll damage once, regardless of the semi-misleading flavor. When it gets to the crunch section of how the attack actually works, it doesn't mention rolling damage multiple times, so it doesn't do it.

[Zwordsman]

It's kinda hard to parse out the flavor and the mechanics here...
There's not "effect" line at the end as far as I know...

Since you could read it as "pool all attacks, and this attack is vs touch and ignores DR" Or you could read it as all fluff until "when she does"

I personally read it that the whole thing is what happens.. So roll all attacks at Touch AC/DRless.
Why? Because this is just like a parent class's ability, so when writing it it looks like they short changed the description a bit.

[The White W0rg]

While I thank you both for taking the time to respond to my question, two people responding with opposing viewpoints puts my group back at square one. Also, Zwordsman, the gunslinger deed you mentioned(Dead Shot) has a nice long explanation on how it works, does not bypass DR, and only hits Touch AC at certain ranges because of the nature of guns, unlike Perfect Thrust, which has a too short description for a potentially overpowered ability. So again, I thank you both for your responses, but my group needs either a popular consensus of a lot of people or a member of the Paizo team to clarify the ability.

P.S. If it seems I'm against the idea of rolling all attacks for the ability, it is only because, as one attack, it qualifies for effects such as Vital Strike, and the resultant potential damage is making our regular GM consider banning the class is some games. It also does not help that the person in our group most likely to play the class has a tendency to roll high a lot.

[Rhatahema]

I'd say you make one attack roll. It's the same thematic concept as dead shot, but an entirely different execution. The flavor text may be a bit misleading, but there's nothing to support it functioning as dead shot.

[RumpinRufus]

You don't get any iteratives. You make a single melee attack as a full round action.

[Zwordsman]

Oh good catch on the details of deadshot, my bad. Though then this ability seems super weak for high lv full round. Full round just for on attack at touch ac and no ddamage reduction. I stilk think you roll the damages, otherwise droping 3 or more attacks for on at touch is not remotely worthwhile. Most things as a ful bab would stil be able to hit with first attack, and pretty decent on the rest,

A big note, vital strike does not work with this ability. Vital strike is its ow standard action.
Now I do think vital strike should work on any one attack and on he first hit of a full attack. But thats a house rule. And if your house might as well just rule it doesnt work on this move.

I mean other classes hay have abilities that target touch ac get it lower level, not lv 15.

[RumpinRufus]

I see it as a "this person is almost dead, and I REALLY want to make sure this turn finishes him" ability.

It's a finishing blow, it's not intended to do more average damage than a full attack, it's expected to do a moderate amount of damage consistently.

[Dolanar]

If it was a single strike at 15th level with a light or piercing weapon its more like very light damage. The quoted text is vague but it sounds more like, Clustered Shot, where you roll all your attacks, then roll the damage & treat it as a single attack.

Typically a single attack at 15th level even for a Dex based swash is going to be about 1d8+10 max, so your "almost dead" person needs to be pretty low.

[Zwordsman]

yeah it certainly worded too vague. but I still side that the "pooling all her attack potential" means pooling all her attacks. Otherwise Why would that line even be included in a book they were worried about word count? It would just say;
"he can as a full-round action make a perfect thrust with a single melee attack made with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon."

I guess I see this has the practiced swords person taking aspecific strike. Like all the novel, anime, manga, movie folks who kill dragons with a sword they strike that special perfect spot, or hit their eyes. So they aim and put their all into the absolute perfect strike.

I think I would almost never use this unless it was specifically against something the DM had design so almost no one could hit reliably. Because the
base dice+str or dex mod + presumably the precise strike damage+enchantment, is way way too low to finish anyone off reliably in that sorta situation.

I guess it's just how I view what this should be considering the level.
Though if it was one strike it would have been cool if it was a charging move, that would've been neat for one attack at touch AC.

[Rhatahema]

I likewise think that it's a weak ability to gain at 15th level, but that's not reason enough to mentally copy/paste another rule mechanic into the deed. Sometimes the developers mistake an ability's power level. It happens.

As for the idea that this is clustered shot for melee weapons, think that through for a minute. You're getting the equivalent of that feat, plus you ignore damage reduction, plus all attacks are made against touch AC. All without spending a single point of panache. That swings way too far in the other direction. Better than the capstone, in my opinion. But if you wanted to house rule that as an additional function of the deed that actually costs 1 or 2 panache, I think that would be fair.

[RumpinRufus]

Dolanar wrote:

If it was a single strike at 15th level with a light or piercing weapon its more like very light damage. The quoted text is vague but it sounds more like, Clustered Shot, where you roll all your attacks, then roll the damage & treat it as a single attack.

Typically a single attack at 15th level even for a Dex based swash is going to be about 1d8+10 max, so your "almost dead" person needs to be pretty low.

That's wildly wrong. Power Attack alone gets you +8, Precise Strike is +15, (Greater) Weapon Specialization is another +4, +6 for dex, +3 for weapon training, +2 for enchantment, that's 1d6+38 right there. And that's not even buffed.

So there's easily a guaranteed 40+ damage that bypasses DR. So it's not meant to do the most damage, but it's a consistent way to kill something that only needs a little killing. Or do nonlethal if you want to knock someone out.

[Zwordsman]

ooh I like that nonlethal bit.

[The White W0rg]

Thank you, Zwordsman, for the information on Vital Strike's behavior. No one in my group caught that. Also, does anyone know if an errata for the Advanced Class Guide is going to come out soon? I'm hoping that maybe clarification of Perfect Thrust will be in there. That is, if someone from Paizo doesn't respond in this thread.

[Zwordsman]

The White W0rg wrote:

Thank you, Zwordsman, for the information on Vital Strike's behavior. No one in my group caught that. Also, does anyone know if an errata for the Advanced Class Guide is going to come out soon? I'm hoping that maybe clarification of Perfect Thrust will be in there. That is, if someone from Paizo doesn't respond in this thread.

Probably not pretty soon. They have more than afew projects they need to do. So they can either work on those before they are released or back peddle a lot. I say just work on their stuff and if they have the ability to budget in a time later for various FAQs.

[shroudb]

To add to that:
By level 15 a swashbuckler with this can fight defensively for extra defense while in the face of a high ac/Dr monster, hit 95% of the time, and if he spends a panache point do an almost guaranteed
1d6+30+8+8+3+4+3= 1d6+56 damage.
Or he can do 1d6+42 and parry for 2 attacks each doing the same with a fortuitous weapon.

Surely not highest DPR out there but circumstantially quite useful if you need either a sure hit or to tank a bit better

[Midnighter]

This is basically a melee version of the Pinpoint Targeting feat except that it has the added bonus of bypassing DR.

Pinpoint Targeting (Combat)
You can target the weak points in your opponent's armor.

Prerequisites: Dex 19, Improved Precise Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +16.

Benefit: As a standard action, make a single ranged attack. The target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class. You do not gain the benefit of this feat if you move this round.