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I present to you THE KNAVE, the second of my homebrewed classes that follow the same design concept. The first one, The brute, is to the barbarian as the knave is to the rogue. Perhaps the knight will follow. Time will tell.
This is a work in progress that I began a few days ago. Hopefully my intent will be obvious, and some suggestions can be made. I am eager to hear both mechanical criticism and thematic brainstorming.
It's interesting but there are some things I simply don't like.
- I hope you understand that Cunning is simply +5 to any skill check per day. I feel you get too many of these, baseline. When you add Ruse, that's +5 + 2x CHA/WIS/INT, which again seems like a double dip.
- On Motley... why two mental skills and one physical? I think it would be better as one Cha, one Wis, and one Int.
- Cad lets you double dip on 1/2 level to Bluff, that seems OP. I also don't like that it locks you on Feinting builds... what about making it more customizable? 3 or 5 alternative features that allow you to use non-combat skills in combat. You can only pick one, perhaps gain another later. Stuff like using Sense Motive to dodge criticals, Disable Device to Sunder and Disarm base CMB, Sleight of Hand to Disarm and Steal base CMB, reverse Feint as printed, 1/2 Heal instead of Fort to resist poison, disease, and death-effects, etc. This could help you spread features out more so you get something for level 19 and 20.
SW:
I'm not sure how you got your numbers for Cunning, but your estimates seem high to me. Also keep in mind that if is a die roll, not a flat bonus, so you might roll higher or lower with the second s20. As for the ability mod, the other way to do this is a flat bonus that scales. Would it be better starting as a flat +2?
On motley, well that was just personal choice. I'm not sure that choosing one ability score over another is better or worse, just preference. I suppose that I don't see the knave as a wise character. Perhaps removing wis from ruse would reinforce that.
On double dipping feint bonuses, did I pick a stackable bonus type? Not intentional. I will fix that.
Your last idea is pretty neat. I like it, but I may or may not proceed on it. It relates to ascalaphus's question.
The 'intended' design concept was:
Martial characters
Different from core classes
Both physical and mental aspects
Fewer choices while leveling up, which means no lists of bonus feats, spells, talents, etc. I am not saying one way or the other is better, just that I have doing more complex ones, and am mixing it up. To help this idea work, I hope to make some if the features diverse.
Ciaran, "roll two dice, take the highest", by simple maths, raises the average dice roll from 10 (the average roll of a d20) to 15. That's nearly the same as having +5 to the roll, except you don't get past 20; but you get a bonus that stacks with anything.
It was explained to me by a mathematician pal that it brings the 'average' to somewhere between 12 and 13. It gives you a second chance to roll higher, but your likelihood of rolling higher with the second die is identical to that of the first die. It does a much better job of avoiding low numbers. However, I'm not completely opposed to changing it to roll again, use the second roll. The roll twice and use the better roll was taken from the cleric luck domain, so it has a precedence.
A:
Let's keep it separate.
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A few weeks ago this came up as well, and I did some number crunching back then. In short, the result is that keeping the best of 2d20 doesn't raise your average roll all that much (from 10.5 to 13), but low results become much more uncommon because the probability curve is a different (more bell-like, but leaning right) shape.
So it's extremely good if rolling about a 8 is enough for you to hit; in that case you become far more reliable. But if you need an 18 the benefits are much smaller. Still better than nothing, but not all that huge.
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Are you starting a separate Brute thread then?
It's a been up for a couple weeks. :)
Before getting into the nitty-gritty, let me state now: I think that this starts off in the right direction, as far as a rogue substitute class that actually works. What I mean is that you seem to have clear goals in mind (skill superiority, useful sneak attacking), and have largely nailed the mechanics to the pursuit of those goals, without any sacrifice in flavor.
That said, there's some specific stuff here that I think is very good, and some other stuff that could maybe be revisited. Following that, a more general "where do we go now?" is something that I feel compelled to add. Specifics:
Thus far, we have the makings of a very serviceable rogue replacement. Yeah, we lose out on rogue talents, but most of those are so minor we'll never miss them (and, to be honest, you've mostly superseded a lot of them with superior class features). We also miss out on evasion and uncanny dodge, and those make me sad, but we could expand Cunning to cover Reflex saves and initiative rolls (for example) and the loss would hurt a lot less.
The problem is that the knave is a 9-level class, insofar as it really doesn't get anything new that it can do after that point; you just get a few more rerolls and some other minor stuff that you're really not going to miss, so you're better off multiclassing into something that offers actual class features -- except that you'd be starting over on that progression as well. In short, you're awesome until mid-game and then, no matter what you do, you can't really keep up. The thing is, that's largely true of the rogue class as well, so overall, your replacement isn't working for me because it ultimately shares the same fatal flaw.
I once spewed out some random suggestions of where I thought the rogue could stand to go at higher levels. A lot of them could stand to be refined quite a bit, modified, or replaced, but they might serve as a starting point for what I'm thinking here: Unorthodox Rogue Fix.
Thank you for so much detailed feedback. I'm glad you picked up on the intent if the class. There are times that I can write overviews, and times I struggle with it.
Cunning
Checks are defined in the rules. They include attacks, saved, skills, ability checks, level checks, basically any d20 roll. Check Is a term I use in my homebrew stuff, but it's use gas proven to unpopular with... Almost everyone.
Deceptive attack
This began as a copy and paste of sneak attack, but I decided I could be a little more original than that. Is it balanced with sneak attack? Not sure. You pretty much nailed all of my thoughts on it.
Motley
I agree with you. But, I am personally opposed to putting choices in the proficiencies section. That being said, this action is not set in stone.
Ruse
Again, you're probably right on all counts. This was the last section I threw together before posting it. I know my intent, but how it happens I'm not sure about. I might remove abuts scores from it and add some defensive features.
The later level features are basically mental place holders. Once I have some strong ideas I will add/remove/combine/modify. My theory is that low level abilities must be ironed out, and remain relevant. Higher level features come second.
Thank you for so much detailed feedback. I'm glad you picked up on the intent if the class. There are times that I can write overviews, and times I struggle with it.
Cunning
Checks are defined in the rules. They include attacks, saved, skills, ability checks, level checks, basically any d20 roll. Check Is a term I use in my homebrew stuff, but it's use gas proven to unpopular with... Almost everyone.Deceptive attack
This began as a copy and paste of sneak attack, but I decided I could be a little more original than that. Is it balanced with sneak attack? Not sure. You pretty much nailed all of my thoughts on it.Motley
I agree with you. But, I am personally opposed to putting choices in the proficiencies section. That being said, this action is not set in stone.Ruse
Again, you're probably right on all counts. This was the last section I threw together before posting it. I know my intent, but how it happens I'm not sure about. I might remove abuts scores from it and add some defensive features.The later level features are basically mental place holders. Once I have some strong ideas I will add/remove/combine/modify. My theory is that low level abilities must be ironed out, and remain relevant. Higher level features come second.
I think Cunning works just fine. It reminds of several rules that are already in the game. There is a lot of talk about the mathematics here, but the bottom line is that likely hits become much more likely (relatively) while unlikely hits become a little less likely. At most you get 7 of these a day. I like where your head is.
I think deceptive attack is more like what sneak attack should be. It is maybe hard to say exactly how well it balances this very second but I think deceptive proves to be much better at higher levels (where the rogue really starts to feel its lack of accuracy). In general, sneak attack is going to raise damage by 3.5 every 2 levels while your ability raises damage by 2 for every 2 levels. This makes sneak attack be sort of the "power attack" equivalent option. I could write out all the math if you want it.
I am not in love with motley but I think it is fine.
I like the idea behind ruse a lot but maybe it needs work.
I don't think Cad will see much use however. Move actions are pretty valuable and there will only be so many instances where your character will have to "tank" right?
Pr(X) = (2X-1)/D^2
You have a 50% chance to roll 15 or higher when rolling two dice and picking the best. 50% chance of rolling lower than 15.
Well, that article is more or less exactly what I would have posted. Neato-keen. I actually have that same chart (and graphs for the chart) made in Stata.
Is that equation right? I ran simulations rather than do calculus cuz I am lazy and it let me do a really broad analysis all at once (like the article). Aren't there at least corner cases that would be in a full solution?
You oversimplify the article, though.
In terms of bonuses, the effective bonus will vary with the target number. The effective bonuses are smallest at the extremities and largest at the medium target number). Recall that Pathfinder does not really have "treadmill" design in the math so it is difficult to contend that most rolls will be in that middle range. Though it does mean that cunning could be best used on checks that have near a 50/50 chance of success.
If you are good at synthesizing data from charts, it is all in the chart (remembering that every 5% is a +1).
I wish I could edit my last post, though. I did a poor job of explaining what I meant in that first little paragraph. C'est la vie.
I once spewed out some random suggestions of where I thought the rogue could stand to go at higher levels. A lot of them could stand to be refined quite a bit, modified, or replaced, but they might serve as a starting point for what I'm thinking here: Unorthodox Rogue Fix.
I'd forgot about that thread, but loved the ideas you put forth.
I loved one thing more, however, than the refinements you suggested for rogues - it STILL makes me laugh every time I read or think of it:
If that destroys "realism" for you, then, yeah, dragons.
13.825 is the mean, 15 is the median. Alike, but not the same. I determined this by reading several articles, trying to figure out why different people were getting different numbers. Anyway, it's not worth railroading over.
Ex
Cunning could go with most favorable, or simply use the second roll. I'm leaving it as is for now, but can change if I need to tone down the power of it.
You and I have reasoned deceptive attack about the same. When higher level crits start happening, I'm not sure if its balanced anymore, but at lower levels I think hits will happen more often than with sneak attack, but do less damage compared to SA.
Motley... Yeah I know. I wanted to take the rogues extra weapon proficiencies and convert it into something else, and allow the character choose to excel in some skills with with within certain limits. Any suggestions?
That is first draft of ruse. You suggested I remove Cha from my 'savage lord' class, which I did, and that worked out pretty well. I'm feeling the need to remove ability scores again.
With cad, I want an ability than may not be powerful, but will remain a tool in the knave's arsenal. Maybe I made a bad choice. At the present time, it is intended to compliment the mind action class feature.
For Motley weapons, how about granting the player a Martial Weapon Proficiency bonus feat at level 1, 4, 7, and then an Exotic Weapon Proficiency at 10? It would be a nice capstone for an otherwise boring level 10.
For Motley skills, I will insist you trade Dexterity for Wisdom. "Streetwise" is a term, isn't it? Besides, Wisdom is important for knavish skills - Sense Motive, Survival (which has countless urban uses), Perception, Profession... I think it's more elegant if it gives you a bonus to a skill in each mental stat, too.
I think Cad can be replaced with something that gives you a bonus to each of the skills you picked with Motley!Skills.
For example:
- If you picked Bluff, on a successful feint, you gain +2 circumstance bonus to AC.
- If you picked Diplomacy, you increase all morale bonus you get by +1.
- If you picked Escape Artist, you gain Defensive Combat Training as a bonus feat.
- If you picked Perception, you can take a move action as a free action during surprise rounds.
And so on. It's three small bonuses immediately, so maybe move it to level 3 and replan level 2.
FOR RUSE: I don't think the class needs more bonus to skills. I think this could be easily scrapped.
13.825 is the mean, 15 is the median. Alike, but not the same. I determined this by reading several articles, trying to figure out why different people were getting different numbers. Anyway, it's not worth railroading over.
Ex
Cunning could go with most favorable, or simply use the second roll. I'm leaving it as is for now, but can change if I need to tone down the power of it.
People are giving different answers because the change in the % chance of success is not reflected in the change of the mean result and some people don't understand that.
That article gives a reasonable analysis.
Streetwise is a thing. The purpose of the ability score diversity was so someone doesn't get all Skills keyed off a single ability score. What if I went with:
She also chooses three skills and adds 1/2 her level as a competence bonus when using those skills. Each skill she chooses must be keyed off of a different ability score. For example, a knave could could choose bluff and sense motive, but could not choose bluff and diplomacy.
The reason Cad uses bluff is because of the Bully feature in my brute class. When i release my knight class,or whatever i call it, it will feature diplomacy.
I see what you mean about two class features granting skill bonuses, but the bard has some pretty awesome skill bonuses AND spells and no one is complaining. What if I made all of the bonus types identical?
And ruse stays. It started off as ploy, and might change again. I just haven't nailed down the right version yet. There are combat benefits in ruse, but I want it to have a lot more out of combat benefits. The combat benefits only exist because a lot of people don't care if a class feature doesn't relate to combat.
The latest version changed some things up. The motley and cad features are gone, and somewhat rolled into charlatan. Mixed attack has become mixed action and is more versatile. Finally, I have included limited magical ability through use of the trickery domain.
I hate to say it, but I'd still play a bard. Their skill buffs are less situational, their spells are level-appropriate, and their inspirations are way more powerful than deceptive attack.
You might consider making the Knave an anti-bard (i.e., one that provides enemy debuffs instead of party buffs), as that seems to be more or less the direction it's headed. The Tomes Jester is a nice version of that sort of class, although its power level is slightly higher than you're probably shooting for.
No need to hate! And I'll think about the debuffs.
There have been a number of revisions, including changes to the names of some class features, but the higher level abilities are still kind of shakey. I'd love some input.
Yo man I love the idea, the first levels seem flawless. But you really lose me later on, Ruse seems too complex to start with.
You're not the only person to say that. I guess I should work on a 1-2 paragraph version to replace the current 4 paragraphs.
Yeah, I like the first level to be honest: rerolls and a balanced Sneak Attack? Awesome!
Then you get Charlatan which forces Bluff builds and then a Domain? Sure Escape does too many stuff to be grokked.
Can I make a riff of your stuff to show how I'd have done it?
I actually changed the bluff thing so its any single charisma skill. What is grokked?
Yes, you may use/rewrite it.
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Ciaran,
I drew up a very limited 4-level spell list choice-ily drawn from Bard and Cleric list mostly, with Trickery Domain (minus Time Stop), a couple Wizard spells, with some notable "tricksy" debuff and obscure spells granted early.
Knave Spells (CRB)
1st
Alarm, Blur, Cause Fear, Charm, Command, Confusion (lesser), Detect Secret Doors, Disguise Self, Doom, Feather Fall, Find Traps, Grease, Invisibility, Magic Aura, Obscure Object, Misdirection, Obscuring Mist, Undetectable Alignment, Ventriloquism
2nd
Alter Self, Blindness/Deafness, Cat's Grace, Confusion, Daze Monster, Death Knell, Detect Thoughts, Displacement, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Glibness, Invisibility (greater), Locate Object, Mirror Image, Nondetection, Scare, See Invisibility, Silence, Slow, Suggestion
3rd
Bestow Curse, Blink, Charm Monster, Command (greater), Crushing Despair, Discern Lies, Dispel Magic, False Vision, Geas (lesser), Invisibility Purge, Locate Creature, Mislead, Screen, Scrying, Shrink Item
4th
Break Enchantment, Cat's Grace (mass), Detect Scrying, Dimensional Anchor, Dominate Person, Eagle's Splendor (mass), Fox's Cunning (mass), Freedom of Movement, Geas/Quest, Invisibility (mass), Mind Fog, Modify Memory, Nightmare, Seeming, Sequester, Suggestion (mass)
...
(note: this suggestion dovetails on ditching Trickery Domain and replacing with 4-level casting as Paladin)
((which reminds me. Alignment: Any Chaotic?))
in which case might I also suggest:
The Knave
1- Charlatan, Underhanded Attack +1, Cunning 1/day
2- Ruse, Evasion
3- Sure Escape, Cunning 2/day
4- Spellcasting
5- Ambush, Underhanded Attack +2
6- Cunning 3/day
7- Sure Escape
8- Improved Ruse, Extra Action
9- Underhanded Attack +3, Cunning 4/day
10- Skill Mastery
11- Sure Escape
12- Cunning 5/day
13- Underhanded Attack +4
14- Ambush Mastery
15- Sure Escape, Greater Extra Action, Cunning 6/day
16- Greater Ruse
17- Undetectable, Underhanded Attack +5
18- Cunning 7/day
19- Sure Escape
20- Master of Deception
and:
Spellcasting = CHA
Sure Escape = DEX
Ruse = INT
?
...
use/tweak or toss. cheers.
Thank you rainsax. I'll work this tonight. Funny thing, I thought about changing the associated ability scores in such a manner as you suggest.
Alright, give this a look: [url]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tIeQWZo2JRFhwF9WoIRc9EjG5DW81c8aYTzNziq OKik/edit?usp=sharing[/url]
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i essentially agree with Kirth, that when looking at the well-designed 6-level classes (like Bard), and looking at your original Trickery Domain pseudo-(Sp)-caster Knave, the options on the latter look extremely limited.
why not open up build options then? MADness be damned.
besides, this guy has little or nothing to do thematically with the Gods whose portfolios grant Trickery, right? You just want him to be "Tricksy" is what I gather. So, without straight copy/pasting a 6-level class, I thought we could do something novel and strap a 4-level onto your 3/4 BAB chassis.
maybe his casting could still be (Sp)? overpowered yes/no?
Well that's s good question. Frankly, I have a hard time thinking of the ranger as a spellcaster.
My intent for the knave was to have very few options. Hence a preset spell list. Like many things, a fine concept but poor execution.
The NEW VERSION is up. The link at the top of the page brings you to the same PDF.
ranzax, you willl notice changes reflecting your suggestions, though not identical to them. :)
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more suggestions:
Skills: 6
Charlatan
Beginning at 2nd level, the knave selects a number of skills from the list below equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1). He gains an insight bonus equal to half his knave level to skill checks made using his selected skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and/or Sleight of Hand.
Ruse
Beginning at 3rd level, a knave may expend a daily use of cunning to attempt to gain a psychological advantage over his opponent for up to 1 day per knave level. A victim of the knave's ruse is always considered flat-footed to the knave's attacks, and the knave may perform a coup-de-gras normally against his victim as a swift action.
To trigger the ruse, the knave must succeed at a skill check against his foe using one of his Charlatan skills, expending a daily use of cunning as a free action as part of the check. If the knave later fails at a skill check using the same skill against a target of his ruse, the ruse is broken. A knave may maintain a number of ruses at a time equal to his Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). This is an extraordinary mind-affecting ability.
Quickdraw
A 3rd level knave gains Quickdraw as a bonus feat.
Do you realize that you suggested Cha for spellcasting? :)
It's highly irregular, and something I wpuld point out in someone else's homebrew, but is it actually wrong?
Skill points at 6 sounds good.
No it's fine. You're right of course. I haven't seen a 4 level spontaneous progression before. Is there one existing already? If not, I have an idea. I'll use the bard's number of spells known, but three levels behind, and add 1 to each value in the existing spells per day table.
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i am not opposed to prepared-CHA per se, just recognize it as a power-up over spontaneous-CHA, is all.
more importantly, what is the source of the knave's magic? does he suddenly develop spell-like abilities at 4th level (spontaneous-CHA) inherently or by divine right, or, does he figure out how to cast a small number of "tricksy" spells by sheer force of will (prepared-CHA)? or something else?
i want to point out that "caster level = class level -3" is an artifact from 3E which PF eliminated (Paladin and Ranger have full caster levels).
I copied and pasted the level -3 from SRD. I will double check my physical copy of the Core Rule Book. I believe that paladin and ranger's caster level in 3.5 was equal to half level. I'm not opposed to full character level, just want to keep it in line with whats normal.
As for her source of magic, I see it as inherent magic akin to that of the sorcerer or bard, but delayed.
So, I made it spontaneous. Did you get a chance to look at the spells per day and spells known I came up with? Does it seem ok?
The latest version has been posted.
I've been looking at the existing Paizo 4-level spontaneous casting progressions, and frankly I'm unimpressed. Sure, 4-level isn't really supposed to hold a candle to 6-level, but the number of spells is so thin! This one I devised is simply the ranger's spells per day table with +1 added to every value. I used the bloodrager's spells known.
I finally looked at the spell list rainzax wrote for me (I was changing all the caps to lower case), and it has changed my view on how the class will work. Its a good list. Might add a few spells to it, might not.
I really get a certain old-school-vibe from your base classes. They seem to be somewhat weaker than the standard classes, but I like them nonetheless.
A few observations:
Most spellcasters have good will saves.
Why not treat the knave as a full-BAB class when using underhanded attack? ("A knave can make underhanded attacks against enemies who are denied a Dexterity bonus to AC, and those she flanks. For the purpose of these attacks, the knave's base attack bonus from her knave class levels is equal to her knave level.")
Also, the knave gains access to new spell levels and to new abilities for Sure Escape at the same levels - maybe you could have Sure Escape start out/advance at different levels?
Thank you for your comments. I suppose they are a bit weaker, but my early home brew (pre-PF) was quite the opposite so I'm still learning. Increasing the power level of homebrew is easier than reducing it, I think. :)
You are right about will saves going hand in hand with spell casting, but the knave began as my retelling of the rogue so I wanted to include some of that class's vulnerabilities. Since the knave has changed quite a bit since it's inception, perhaps I should reevaluate some of my early choices.
The attack bonus that is built in to underhanded attack makes it exactly equal to a full bab. Its a "psuedo-full bab" as Kirth Gensen put it. I find simply applying a bonus to be easier than recalculating one.
Right you are about gaining both spells and sure escape at the same level. My rationale was that paladins gain channel energy at the same time as spells, and that rangers gain their animal companion.