Highest dmg archer build there is


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Guys, I've long heard that Pathfinder is the "archer edition" and I'm wanting to better understand this.
Why do people say this and what would be the most dmg-dealing archery build there is? How high is this in comparison with other damage dealers?

Are there any handbooks or guides on the subject? Is the hybrid class Slayer worth it?

thanks in advance


Zen Archer Qinggong Monk. Massive damage, awesome saves, awesome defence. Few weaknesses, massive # of hits a round. Lots of special abilities to do more control etc...

To understand why it's so powerful compared to melee. Archers do all their attacks nearly every round, melee need to get into the mobs face and then to their full attack. The strongest/best melee are pouncers or archers. They just win, they don't need to get into melee range to get whacks, they don't have to deal with mobs taking a whack and moving somewhere else. Getting a full attack is pretty rare rounds for melees, especially as mobs get higher CR and get more and more abilities, with flight/teleport/dimension door's becomes so common.


The reason is because archers can virtually always get full-round attacks. Combine this with feats like Rapid Shot, Many Shot, the Zen archer archetype, etc, and Bob's your uncle. Theorycraft numbers wise, the archer will likely fall slightly behind DPS Olympics, but the actual utility of always having Full-Round attacks is HUGE when it comes to actual gameplay.

And all that's before the consideration that a well-stocked quiver is better than Batman's utility belt.

Sovereign Court

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Archery isn't the most damaging thing around, but, unlike in other editions, it competes better. Feats like Deadly Aim and Clustered Shots help it deal more consistent damage and deal with damage resist better.

It LOOKS higher sometimes because you don't have to move in order to hit most of the time so you can full-attack...and with the aforesaid Clustered Shots you do better against damage resistant things than someone who has to pull out this material vs. this enemy (hope you've got lots of greatswords...)

In order to build an archery build that damages "better" than many melee builds, you've got to spend lots of feats and usually Dex (Wis for a ZA but they can't drop it too low) + Con + another stat (Str for every bowman). If you're a gunslinger it's more feats + money to give you rate of fire and, while not dropping Wis or Con (or Int if you want any skills) you only have to focus on Dex (which is nice).

The builds people have most issues about are monk (Sohei and Zen Archer), Gunslinger (musket master usually but sometimes pistolero), and Paladin archers. Ranger is a contender too if you build it right and run into the "right" enemies (and when you get above 10 you've usually got a spell to make one target the "right" one no matter what).
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Melee theoretically does a little more damage still (with the right build) but positioning means you're not going to be as steady a DPS'er as an archer usually...so archers LOOK more powerful especially with the right build and some luck.
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There are some guides floating around but seriously archery is so feat-intensive there's not that much variety in a min-max build.

Long and short: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, Improved Precise Shot, Point-Blank Master if you can get it (or Gunslinger), Weapon Focus / Weapon Specialization (if you can get it), and Rapid Shot / Manyshot (unless you're a ZA).
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Zen Archers get called cheesy because they give you a lot of those feats for free (so at about 10 or so you can actually choose some others if you like) and have more shots than a fighter would (the only build that competes featwise).

Fighters just get feats...take all the strong archery-related feats and you're good to go. Just don't neglect Str and Con in your initial design.

Paladins don't get extra feats but smite is a very powerful mechanic if you can use it from everywhere (as can an archer). If you can pick up extra feats for mounted archery it's extremely good...otherwise you can still do it but you've got to wait until the teens until it really comes together.

Ranger gets not as many bonus feats as a fighter but the favored enemy and spells and companion mean they can do a lot more extra than a fighter can and only do a little bit less damage in the worst circumstance and a bit more in the best.

Sohei is like the ZA except it doesn't run on just Wis + Str but you get more attacks than anyone else (Multiattack and Rapid Shot don't stack with ZA but do with Sohei flurry)...and you're potentially more versatile because you can flurry with other things too and wear armor if you need as well.

Gunslinger attacks touch AC and runs only on Dex. The balancing factors are the money you spend on firearms, ammo, etc...which is mitigated some by the feats you get and skills you can pick up. And of course you're probably going to need to be closer to enemies than absolutely necessary for other builds. All you need is to start with high Dex, decent Will and Con and crank Dex all the way. You're also mostly locked into your feat selection unless you dip something with bonus feats (like a Pally might).


I am playing a 9th level archer with mythic level 2, in possession of Many shot, Epic Many shot, Rapid shot, Distant Barrage and Cluster Shot; using a compound bow that imbues its arrows with frost burst.

Just make a few guesses at what 1D8+2 + 1D6 that in a full round attack action looks like to the enemy...

If a full round hits its 5D8+10 + 5D6 (20 dmg min, 80 dmg max p/rnd), add another 1D8+2 +1D6 if I spend a mythic point for Distant Barrage (24 dmg min, 96 dmg max p/rnd). I am outputting more or less the equivalent of a 10th level Wizard/Sorcerer fireball, every, single, round.

And if I get proper prep time for two rounds. I ~DO~ cast Abundant Ammunition and Gravity Bow (which gives me unlimited ammo, and changes the damage to 1D10+2 + 1D6 per arrow. You can do the math from there yourself)

And I am more than ready to admit that this is not the most efficient Archer build in the game.

Individuals who fight my group know damn well what's about to happen. the Mythic Monk is going to close on them and keep them in place, and the Archer is going to stand off WAY the hell out of range (Distance barrage gives him a horrendous long range with his bow) and put fire into the bag guys at a fireball equivalent every round for the duration of the fight.

Or St was forced to throw out a mythic regenerating Shapeshifter who first assumed a mythic ire wolf form, then a mythic troll form, just to challenge the party.

BTW, the mythic troll is an absolute beast, with that ultimate 25 HP p/nd regen it develops over time.


Just done reading Porpentine's "One" build/guide. It looks downright awesome.

As for Pallies, mounted archery doesn't rock me hard as stealthy archery, which I can still achieve with a monk build.

Wonder if rangers are actually capable of competing in terms of damage. I come from 3.5 where rangers weren't the prime deal on it (back then I took the rogue/scout swift ambusher route to build my archer).

Sovereign Court

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/instant-enemy

Yes. Yes, they are.
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As for Pallies, they don't have to be mounted to be good archers; I only stressed that because at 5 you get a choice between having a divine spirit weapon -- more useful than a mount until you have the feats to make your mount go somewhere and then full attack...in other words, being the most mobile archer around with another potential source of damage in the mix too.


One thing is the ranger will have to rely on buffing himself a little more to get consistent good damage output, but the abundant ammunition spell works great if you keep a special quiver full of bleeding arrows (does bleed stack?), raining, or slow burn arrows. Whether it works with arrows that are poisoned is up for debate AFAIK.


Curiosity: are slayers superior to rangers despite not having spells? I mean, those sneak attack dice and the slayer talents certainly make up for the spell loss, no?


Getting sneak to ranged attacks is very hard to do and basically impossible to do reliably.


Zen Archer Qi Gongs are NOT the most damaging by any means. That being said, its probably the strongest all around class when taking everything into consideration. My level 11 one has a low saving throw of +14 and a high save of +19 (+5 vs spells & spell like abilities), an AC of roughly 38 most the time, which I can push to 45 as needed, Touch of 30(with a deflect arrow in there) a strong CMD, nice skills and mobility, and can dish between 100-150. You have a lot of extra feats compared to most other archers out there.

The most damaging archer IMO is the Ranger Instant Enemy build. Put bane on a bow and memorize as many instant enemies as you can, maybe even buy a few level 3 pearls of power. Instant enemy a foe to instantly add +8 attack / Damage and an extra +2d6 damage. On the 4 arrows alone your looking at an average of 60 before adding anything else. The +8 is likely more than a paladin gets from smite, so you basically always hit and clustered shots doesn't care about DR. I often see these guys pushing 200 by 11th, something my Zen Archer has maybe hit twice.

As far as SA goes, I have an archer in a game who took a level in wave oracle and has obscuring mist. That will land you a lot of SA's, though you still have to be close.

Scarab Sages

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...or you could throw a rock at it.

Silver Crusade

Under a Bleeding Sun, the bane weapon property doesn't work like that. When you add the bane enchantment you have to pick,one type and subtype for the bane to work against.

Liberty's Edge

First, I have to ask why is this in the rules question forum?

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Under a Bleeding Sun, the bane weapon property doesn't work like that. When you add the bane enchantment you have to pick,one type and subtype for the bane to work against.

Let us say you pick the elf subtype for bane, which is also your biggest favored enemy. You run across a non-favored enemy and cast instant enemy and suddenly they count as an elf for you, including your bane weapon. Totally legit.

Silver Crusade

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ShadowcatX wrote:
Let us say you pick the elf subtype for bane, which is also your biggest favored enemy. You run across a non-favored enemy and cast instant enemy and suddenly they count as an elf for you, including your bane weapon. Totally legit.

Def don't agree with this. The spell says "you" may treat the target. The magical properties of your Bane weapon is not considered "you". Even reading the Bane weapon, it doesn't say "you" deal extra damage, it says "it" deals extra damage, meaning the weapon.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Mydrrin wrote:
Zen Archer Qinggong Monk.

Myrmidarch magus 11+/arcane archer 3+ gets less bonus feats, but can do more with ranged attacks (and buffs, utility, etc.). Not to mention still being good in melee when required.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
KutuluKultist wrote:
Getting sneak to ranged attacks is very hard to do and basically impossible to do reliably.

Unless an arcane trickster using Impromptu Sneak Attack (which is limited uses per day).


Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:


The most damaging archer IMO is the Ranger Instant Enemy build. Put bane on a bow and memorize as many instant enemies as you can, maybe even buy a few level 3 pearls of power. Instant enemy a foe to instantly add +8 attack / Damage and an extra +2d6 damage. On the 4 arrows alone your looking at an average of 60 before adding anything else. The +8 is likely more than a paladin gets from smite, so you basically always hit and clustered shots doesn't care about DR. I often see these guys pushing 200 by 11th, something my Zen Archer has maybe hit twice.

As far as SA goes, I have an archer in a game who took a level in wave oracle and has obscuring mist. That will land you a lot of SA's, though you still have to be close.

Is there anything special to an "Instant Enemy Build" or is it just a ranger who picks this spell and the good archery feats? Any special multiclass or archetype or anything else I should be aware of?


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The highest DPR archer is going to be either a Ranger using Instant Enemy or a Fighter (due to the ability to pickup Weapon Spec Greater Weapon Spec, Weapon Training with Gloves) or a Shoei (at high level, because they can Flurry with the Bow as well as combine it with Rapid Shot and Many Shot which a Zen Archer Cannot, and he still benefits from Weapon Training and Gloves).

Sohei takes too long to pull ahead of any of the others in my opinion.

Fighter's lack of skills or ability to act effectively outside of combat also makes them a poor choice to me.

I prefer ranger's to either myself.


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I think the reason that Pathfinder is the "archery edition" is that there are so many ways to build an effective archer, depending on whether you want to have magic, mobility, sneak attack, etc. Rather than focus on "what puts out the most damage", you're probably better off focusing on what kind of archer you want to be.

If you want to be Hawkeye (plant yourself in a good position and snipe at enemies), go with Fighter/Weapon Master archetype. You won't do much else, but you will be dropping enemies left and right.

If you want to be Robin Hood (sneak through the woods and set up ambushes, be awesome with a bow but able to run into melee), go with Ranger/any archetype. The only trick here is that you have to carefully plan your bonus feats so that you don't strand yourself without the right prerequisites. (This is because the original combat style feat lists haven't been updated to include the newest archery feats; if you want the newer feats that aren't on the Archery combat style list, just make sure you have the prerequisites.) Slayer is also an option here, if you want to do more of the Howard Pyle (books) version of Robin Hood instead of the Errol Flynn (movie) version.

If you want to be Legolas (dance across the battlefield throwing out arrows, leaping onto the back of an elephant to put three arrows in its head and then leaping out of the way before it falls on you), go with Zen Archer. You'll get high mobility, great Perception, great saves, and fun wire-work stunts. Combine it with Qiggong archetype for additional flexibility.

If you want to be Kagome or Kikio from Inuyasha (uses magic with archery, but has a nuclear-missile arrow when needed), try a Paladin/Divine Hunter archetype, a Magus/Myrmidarch, or an Alchemist/Grenadier. Inquisitor, Cleric, Oracle, and Warpriest also work here, but I'm not aware of any archetypes that would be better than any other.

For an effective, damage-dealing ranged character, the first thing you need to do is to get Precise Shot as soon as possible. After that, you're looking for Rapid Shot (Flurry for Zen Archer), Manyshot (if not a Zen Archer), and Improved Precise Shot. Point Blank Shot is a prerequisite for most archery feats. If you want to use a bow in the middle of melee without taking AoOs, you need Point Blank Master.

Deadly Aim is really nice but it's not the same "no brainer/must have" as Power Attack (because you can't get 1.5 times the bonus). You can pick up Deadly Aim when any of the other feats aren't available yet, but it's always my second or third choices.

If you go the mobility route, look at Shot on the Run (requires Dodge and Mobility).

If you want more always-hit sniper options, consider Bullseye Shot, especially if you have sneak attack, a bane ability, or nifty trick arrows (Elves of Golarion has a nice selection). Combined with Focused Shot (add Int to damage), this can be a really nice option for a Myrmidarch or Grenadier build.

If you need to get through DR, go with Clustered Shots or Hammer the Gap. Weapon Blanches are a good option here, too.

But that's why Pathfinder is the Archer-Friendly RPG. You can build four or five different archery-based characters who are each effective in their own way.


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Instant Enemy: With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration. Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes.

It specifically calls out for all purposes, not for instant enemy, but all purposes.

You can pretty much use any archetype that doesn't give up archery as a combat style. You should NOT multiclass as it will delay Instant Enemy greatness! Its really pretty flexible though. I'd keep the companion if you can because having a meat shield as an archer is always fun!


That has nothing to do with the bane property. The spell can not change how the weapon works.


Zen archer is very strong every level after 3, it just has so many options, massive numbers of shots. 4th level maybe 4 shots (2 shots + 1 ki shot, +1 summoners haste). To hit is +10 (+2/+2 + 1 Bow, +1 PBS, +1 WF, +5 Wis +1 haste, -1 DA). Damage with a +1 bow is 1d8+6 (+2 Deadly Aim and +1 point blank +2 Strength). AC getting to tank levels pretty quick - 25 at 4th naked(10, +4 Mage Armor, +2 barkskin (qinggong), +5 Wis, +1 monk, +2 Dex, +1 haste), allowing to focus more on bows and related equipment. Insane CMD's for grapples/trips etc. He can hang out in melee without taking attacks of opportunity at 3rd level. At 1st he gets a bonus of rolling 2 rolls if he starts to run out of ki points, burst and sustained damage is insane.

By level 20, AC's in the 50's, 8-9 attacks in the +30's attack bonuses with 2d10+high 20's damage. Even fighters can't compete, 6 arrows a round with haste. Somewhat higher attack bonus with lower damage. Plus many bonus monk ability he can do with his arrows that a fighter can't.

Rangers and paladins are OK. But a Zen Archer has just more options and more damage to most things.

Silver Crusade

Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:

Instant Enemy: With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration. Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes.

It specifically calls out for all purposes, not for instant enemy, but all purposes.

You can pretty much use any archetype that doesn't give up archery as a combat style. You should NOT multiclass as it will delay Instant Enemy greatness! Its really pretty flexible though. I'd keep the companion if you can because having a meat shield as an archer is always fun!

It STILL says "you"-- NOT your weapon, not the enchantment on your weapon. It does NOT change the fact that for the enchantment on your bane arrow (not you-- and it's doubtless something you bought, not something you made), it's still not actually the type/sub-type of critter it was enchanted to kill. Your quote above, btw-- specifically calls out the favored enemy ability as part of that "all purposes" statement-- with the apparent meaning meaning that you can apply all your favored enemy bonuses, not just the hit/damage ones, towards the target of the spell. I sincerely doubt that it was ever intended to be as broad an effect as the claims you make for it.

That was the point that Noretoc was making earlier... and I agree with his interpretation.


Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:

Instant Enemy: With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration. Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes.

It specifically calls out for all purposes, not for instant enemy, but all purposes.

You are misunderstanding the ability.

You "treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes". You're putting emphasis in the wrong place. You treat the enemy as a favored enemy, for all purposes. But favored doesn't interact with bane. That line simply means that for other abilities that normally function with favored enemy, instant makes that creature count as a FE. So, you can use Quarry, Improved Quarry, and Master Hunter on them as if they were of the appropriate type.

Mydrrin wrote:

Zen archer is very strong every level after 3, it just has so many options, massive numbers of shots. 4th level maybe 4 shots (2 shots + 1 ki shot, +1 summoners haste). To hit is +10 (+2/+2 + 1 Bow, +1 PBS, +1 WF, +5 Wis +1 haste, -1 DA). Damage with a +1 bow is 1d8+6 (+2 Deadly Aim and +1 point blank +2 Strength). AC getting to tank levels pretty quick - 25 at 4th naked(10, +4 Mage Armor, +2 barkskin (qinggong), +5 Wis, +1 monk, +2 Dex, +1 haste), allowing to focus more on bows and related equipment. Insane CMD's for grapples/trips etc. He can hang out in melee without taking attacks of opportunity at 3rd level. At 1st he gets a bonus of rolling 2 rolls if he starts to run out of ki points, burst and sustained damage is insane.

By level 20, AC's in the 50's, 8-9 attacks in the +30's attack bonuses with 2d10+high 20's damage. Even fighters can't compete, 6 arrows a round with haste. Somewhat higher attack bonus with lower damage. Plus many bonus monk ability he can do with his arrows that a fighter can't.

Rangers and paladins are OK. But a Zen Archer has just more options and more damage to most things.

Zen Archer suffers from a distinct lack of static damage modifiers. The main damage bonus they have available is using their unarmed strike on their bow attacks, which unfortunately consumes ki (a limited resource). Unless you stack it with Qinggong Monk, it's very hard to regain Ki. Even then, you have to wait till you get Ki Leech at 10th level, which is still a long time to wait. And that depends on critical hits (not common on a bow) or reducing an enemy to 0 hp (depending on group play style may or may not be easy to ensure).

Sovereign Court

You need a lot more stats and equipment to make a ZA work than some other builds. Lots of this theorycraft depends on having just the right stats, just the right gear, etc.

The only stat you can really afford to drop is Cha, unless you just want to push damage as much as possible and don't care about other facets of your character...in which case you probably should have gone with a Ranger with Instant Enemy.

You can't drop Int, Con, or Dex because they help with skills, hp / Fort, and AC / Ref / skills respectively.
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Ranger's in a similar position but Instant Enemy is just that good; you can drop Int a bit more along with Cha, though, so it'll help you if you want more Dex or Str. Abundant ammo (especially) and gravity bow are also good buffers for you; will save you money. Armor is less expensive than what a monk uses instead too, so you can spend more on your weapon. Your per-shot damage will be better than all except maybe the paladin with smite; you have more feats and skills too and a companion.
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Pally has good buff spells and smite means you're a contender for damage but you can't drop anything except Wis and Int; skills are then your big weakness. It's a simpler build and costs probably less than most though.


Black Feather wrote:

You need a lot more stats and equipment to make a ZA work than some other builds. Lots of this theorycraft depends on having just the right stats, just the right gear, etc.

The only stat you can really afford to drop is Cha, unless you just want to push damage as much as possible and don't care about other facets of your character...in which case you probably should have gone with a Ranger with Instant Enemy.

You can't drop Int, Con, or Dex because they help with skills, hp / Fort, and AC / Ref / skills respectively.

A ZA gets a good AC out of the box. They need a single stat that gives both to hit and AC and the best save. A monk doesn't need to spend as much on AC as a ranger does to get the same AC. In fact, AC of a ZA should be heads and shoulders above a rangers at nearly every level except maybe the first 3.

Static damage? With Deadly Aim, is pretty good, and with Weapon Specialization given at 6th level, it's pretty solid. Massive number of arrows, DR overcome with just being a monk for most things, can do clustered shot but it's not required.


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AC isn't particularly relevant for archers. I'm not saying ignore it completely, but having good AC isn't nearly as important for archers as it is for others. Usually, you should be more worried about magical attacks. Though the monk does definitely still have an edge here.

Everyone is using Deadly Aim, a Zen Archer can't count that over anyone. Weapon Spec is only a +2. The Ranger got that at level 1 against his Favored Enemy. Meanwhile, at level 10 when Instant Enemy comes online you should be getting +6 to attack and damage against any target you want.

Sovereign Court

ZA: Bracers of Armor +8 = 64K gp AND you don't get to wear Bracers of Archery. Now add your Wis bonus to that (call it +8). Your Dex won't get you quite as much but let's call it +3.

Ranger: Mithril Breastplate give you +6 for about 4200. You can get a +5 to it by spending another 25K. Call your Dex bonus +8. You've got exactly the same AC and you've spent less than half what a monk has. AND you get to wear Bracers of Archery.
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DR isn't overcome unless you've got special materials or spend Ki every turn...or you took Clustered Shots (which other builds can get).

Seriously, have you even played, GM'd or been at the same table as people using these builds?

I mean, ZA is pretty strong but it's one among MANY and other archer builds can be just as good and sometimes better in many ways.


Erm... has anyone ever tried to compare the damage of these things?

Ranger vs ZA Monk vs Sohei Monk vs Paladin ?

Sovereign Court

There have been some tests if I remember right.

With more points to spend in character creation and more money / flexible crafting rules (getting discounts on crafted stuff and doing something like Vest of Armor rather than Bracers of Armor etc), Sohei usually wins. Especially if your party specializes in helping each other. The weaknesses of any monk build (even archery ones) are your reliance on multiple stats and equipment...which is mitigated by those conditions. With fewer points to spend on stats but decent crafting / wealth rules, the advantage shifts to the ZA...your big break comes from needing only Wis super-high so you get a lot of ki to play with.

With fewer points to spend and no crafting / creative substitution / etc. it's the ranger if you're fighting favored enemy a lot and the paladin if you're fighting evil and only consider the smited stuff. So usually the ranger.
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Most of the ultra-high dps builds get that way by ignoring basic defensive measures or other utility to squeeze out the very highest offensive numbers though, so most of what I said applies only to characters you'd actually play in an actual game...


Black Feather wrote:

ZA: Bracers of Armor +8 = 64K gp AND you don't get to wear Bracers of Archery. Now add your Wis bonus to that (call it +8). Your Dex won't get you quite as much but let's call it +3.

Ranger: Mithril Breastplate give you +6 for about 4200. You can get a +5 to it by spending another 25K. Call your Dex bonus +8. You've got exactly the same AC and you've spent less than half what a monk has. AND you get to wear Bracers of Archery.
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DR isn't overcome unless you've got special materials or spend Ki every turn...or you took Clustered Shots (which other builds can get).

Seriously, have you even played, GM'd or been at the same table as people using these builds?

I mean, ZA is pretty strong but it's one among MANY and other archer builds can be just as good and sometimes better in many ways.

Seriously, how could you miss monk level based AC. Or the cheap Dex portion of the belt. Seriously mithril breastplate allows you 5 of your 8 dex only. Seriously Bracers of Archery give a competence bonus, something you get in an ioun stone. Sure bracers are slightly better but it's not like it's so amazingly better.

Lets go with a level 20 monk just for shiz and giggles. 10 +9 Wisdom (with books it would be +12) is what can be got, +5 monk, +5 dex, +1 for hat, +1 ioun stones, +8 for a bracers. +5 def, +5 nat, +1 dodge = 50. With 37 against touch attacks which is what threatens most.

Let's see a equally done up Ranger. 10 + 5 Dex (has 9 or 12 with books but only 5 apply) +1 for hat, +1 ioun, +11 for +5 mithril breastplate, +5 nat, +5 def, +1 dodge = 39 AC. So something hitting the ranger on a 5 will need a 16 to hit the monk. With only 23 vs touch.

A monk should have a better AC at every point except early levels.

Ki Focus Bow: DR is overcome as long as the monk has at least one ki point in his ki pool. No spending of Ki.

Sovereign Court

I was thinking of something like celestial armor and trying to reverse-engineer it onto mithril bp for the +8 dex. But my point about expense still stands for most of the character's life before celestial chain is outshone.

That's an interesting point about ki strike / ki focus weapon on arrows. I've not played to 17 in Pathfinder and there are still some changes from 3.5 I'm not used to. It's not that major but I see your point there. You'll punch through a lot with that; but so will a ranger with abundant ammo on whatever the requisite enchantment is he wants (granted it takes a bit more setting up).

My point isn't that ZA's aren't strong, it's just that when the build point / gear / world conditions don't favor them they're not always the best choice. If your GM is running a grittier campaign with limited point buy, wealth, and materials...it's still a strong choice but maybe not the "best".


wraithstrike wrote:
That has nothing to do with the bane property. The spell can not change how the weapon works.

I think RAI you're totally right.

I just don't see how by RAW, you get around the spell specifically calling out "for all purposes" and places no restrictions on what "all purposes" applies to.

Could you not say that "I treat that enemy as <insert type here> for the purpose of wielding any weapon with the bane property" and have that be covered under the umbrella of "for all purposes" ?

The only thing that wouldn't make this work is that if it were somewhere defined that the types mentioned in favored enemies, are not in any way related to creature types, which is a hard argument to make I think.


Amrel wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
That has nothing to do with the bane property. The spell can not change how the weapon works.

I think RAI you're totally right.

I just don't see how by RAW, you get around the spell specifically calling out "for all purposes" and places no restrictions on what "all purposes" applies to.

Could you not say that "I treat that enemy as <insert type here> for the purpose of wielding any weapon with the bane property" and have that be covered under the umbrella of "for all purposes" ?

The only thing that wouldn't make this work is that if it were somewhere defined that the types mentioned in favored enemies, are not in any way related to creature types, which is a hard argument to make I think.

Not sure your confusion. It specifically states "you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes."

How does this indicate favoured enemy = weapon enchantment bane. "All purposes" can only be in regards to "favored enemy".


Mydrrin wrote:
Amrel wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
That has nothing to do with the bane property. The spell can not change how the weapon works.

I think RAI you're totally right.

I just don't see how by RAW, you get around the spell specifically calling out "for all purposes" and places no restrictions on what "all purposes" applies to.

Could you not say that "I treat that enemy as <insert type here> for the purpose of wielding any weapon with the bane property" and have that be covered under the umbrella of "for all purposes" ?

The only thing that wouldn't make this work is that if it were somewhere defined that the types mentioned in favored enemies, are not in any way related to creature types, which is a hard argument to make I think.

Not sure your confusion. It specifically states "you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes."

How does this indicate favoured enemy = weapon enchantment bane. "All purposes" can only be in regards to "favored enemy".

Because its changing that creature's type to the type you specify for all purposes relating to you, and bane is based on creature type.

As I mentioned earlier, if the types mentioned under favored enemy are not compatible with general creature types then this doesnt work, but I havent heard anything that hints at that so far.


Mydrrin wrote:
Ki Focus Bow: DR is overcome as long as the monk has at least one ki point in his ki pool. No spending of Ki.

Ki Focus is a melee weapon enhancement only. It cannot be applied to bows.

You cannot use Ki Strike to bypass DR as a normal monk would with his fists. Beyond that, the monk's ability to bypass DR is really only relevant for DR silver or cold iron. DR magic is very easily bypassed by the time it becomes common. DR law is a joke most of the time, there are very few creatures you would encounter with DR law. The ability to bypass DR adamantine is nice, too bad you don't get it till level 16. Which is the end of most campaigns, if not sooner. Beyond that, by that time most people can afford to have a +5 weapon to not worry about it either.

And for silver and cold iron? It's not a problem for archers. Arrows are relatively cheap, even with special materials. And especially with Abundant Ammunition. Buy 20 or so arrows of each kind, and if you think you're going to encounter creatures with that resistance more often, then buy more. DR really isn't a big deal, At least not the kinds the monk can bypass.


Amrel wrote:
Mydrrin wrote:
Amrel wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
That has nothing to do with the bane property. The spell can not change how the weapon works.

I think RAI you're totally right.

I just don't see how by RAW, you get around the spell specifically calling out "for all purposes" and places no restrictions on what "all purposes" applies to.

Could you not say that "I treat that enemy as <insert type here> for the purpose of wielding any weapon with the bane property" and have that be covered under the umbrella of "for all purposes" ?

The only thing that wouldn't make this work is that if it were somewhere defined that the types mentioned in favored enemies, are not in any way related to creature types, which is a hard argument to make I think.

Not sure your confusion. It specifically states "you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes."

How does this indicate favoured enemy = weapon enchantment bane. "All purposes" can only be in regards to "favored enemy".

Because its changing that creature's type to the type you specify for all purposes relating to you, and bane is based on creature type.

As I mentioned earlier, if the types mentioned under favored enemy are not compatible with general creature types then this doesnt work, but I havent heard anything that hints at that so far.

But it doesn't for all purposes relating to you. It says "type of favored enemy for all purposes". It is very clear that it is only for favoured enemy. The start even more clarifies the purpose: "With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration." I'm not sure how their could be any confusion. Maybe a little wishful thinking.


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Yuukale wrote:

Erm... has anyone ever tried to compare the damage of these things?

Ranger vs ZA Monk vs Sohei Monk vs Paladin ?

I've done level-by-level damage output comparisons of Fighter-based archer (no archetype) and Zen Archer Monk. Zen Archer does better around levels 1-3, they are close to even through level 8 or 9, but Fighter becomes unstoppable after that, topping out at 1.5 times as much damage as the Zen Archer. Weapon Master Fighter starts pulling ahead even earlier. This holds true even when you count cover and concealment; if you don't count cover or concealment, the Zen Archer is only ahead at level 1 (unless you play a human and pick up Rapid Shot at first level with your extra feat).

I haven't tested a Sohei, Ranger, or Paladin build. Rangers and Paladins have a lot of situational damage, so it's not a one-to-one comparison. How often those situations will come up is completely dependent on the group you play with and what you're playing. In a Wrath of the Righteous campaign, for example, the Paladin will shine, as will the Ranger with Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders). In a more varied environment like PFS, they won't be as devastating. (They are still effective, mind you, but their situational bonuses come up less often.)

For the Sohei build, I just don't see the benefit of it. It takes up to 6th level before it can really start being useful, and my games usually top out at 12th level. By the time the weapon training stuff kicks in, my characters are already halfway through their careers. If you have a longer character life, it might be worth it, but I need my characters to be effective from level 1 or 2.


Gwen Smith wrote:
Yuukale wrote:

Erm... has anyone ever tried to compare the damage of these things?

Ranger vs ZA Monk vs Sohei Monk vs Paladin ?

I've done level-by-level damage output comparisons of Fighter-based archer (no archetype) and Zen Archer Monk. Zen Archer does better around levels 1-3, they are close to even through level 8 or 9, but Fighter becomes unstoppable after that, topping out at 1.5 times as much damage as the Zen Archer. Weapon Master Fighter starts pulling ahead even earlier. This holds true even when you count cover and concealment; if you don't count cover or concealment, the Zen Archer is only ahead at level 1 (unless you play a human and pick up Rapid Shot at first level with your extra feat).

I haven't tested a Sohei, Ranger, or Paladin build. Rangers and Paladins have a lot of situational damage, so it's not a one-to-one comparison. How often those situations will come up is completely dependent on the group you play with and what you're playing. In a Wrath of the Righteous campaign, for example, the Paladin will shine, as will the Ranger with Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders). In a more varied environment like PFS, they won't be as devastating. (They are still effective, mind you, but their situational bonuses come up less often.)

For the Sohei build, I just don't see the benefit of it. It takes up to 6th level before it can really start being useful, and my games usually top out at 12th level. By the time the weapon training stuff kicks in, my characters are already halfway through their careers. If you have a longer character life, it might be worth it, but I need my characters to be effective from level 1 or 2.

I've looked at both and found ZA to be about the same at near every level. Put together a Fighter of any archetype at whatever level you choose. I'll put together a ZA at the same level with level appropriate gear. Up to ultimate magic and combat for books. I would like to see how they stack up by someone knowing what they are doing. Good to know new tricks. Let's assume a friendly caster has cast haste.


Amrel wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
That has nothing to do with the bane property. The spell can not change how the weapon works.

I think RAI you're totally right.

I just don't see how by RAW, you get around the spell specifically calling out "for all purposes" and places no restrictions on what "all purposes" applies to.

Could you not say that "I treat that enemy as <insert type here> for the purpose of wielding any weapon with the bane property" and have that be covered under the umbrella of "for all purposes" ?

The only thing that wouldn't make this work is that if it were somewhere defined that the types mentioned in favored enemies, are not in any way related to creature types, which is a hard argument to make I think.

You can't just use three words. You have to use the entire sentence. The weapon "not you" is what determines how bane interacts. If "you" determined how bane affected creatures then that would be correct, but "you" have no influence on what bane type that weapon is.


Human Vivisectionist Alchemist 20
Final relevant stats
Str:32 Dex:40

Vestiginal arm x2
Transformation formula

Feats
1-Proficiency long composite bow
3-WF bow
5-Point blank
7-Precise shot
9-Deadly Aim
11-TWF
13-Rapid Shot
15-Improv TWF
17-
19-Greater TWF

Composite Bow +5 adaptive x2
Boots of speed
Archer bracer, greater
Sniper goggles, greater

Attacks: +32/+32/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17
Damage: 1d8+29
Sneak: 1d8+49+10d6

Silver Crusade

Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

Human Vivisectionist Alchemist 20

Final relevant stats
Str:32 Dex:40

Vestiginal arm x2
Transformation formula

Feats
1-Proficiency long composite bow
3-WF bow
5-Point blank
7-Precise shot
9-Deadly Aim
11-TWF
13-Rapid Shot
15-Improv TWF
17-
19-Greater TWF

Composite Bow +5 adaptive x2
Boots of speed
Archer bracer, greater
Sniper goggles, greater

Attacks: +32/+32/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17
Damage: 1d8+29
Sneak: 1d8+49+10d6

This doesn't work.


Yes, it works.

Silver Crusade

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No it doesn't. The vestigial arm doscovery specifically states that it does not give you any extra attacks or actions, therefore no matter how many vestigial arms you have, you cannot dual-wield two-handed weapons.

If you want to wield to bows, you need to be a race that naturally has 4 arms, like the kasatha (sp), and take Multi-weapon Fighting.


Mydrrin wrote:
Gwen Smith wrote:
Yuukale wrote:

Erm... has anyone ever tried to compare the damage of these things?

Ranger vs ZA Monk vs Sohei Monk vs Paladin ?

I've done level-by-level damage output comparisons of Fighter-based archer (no archetype) and Zen Archer Monk. Zen Archer does better around levels 1-3, they are close to even through level 8 or 9, but Fighter becomes unstoppable after that, topping out at 1.5 times as much damage as the Zen Archer. Weapon Master Fighter starts pulling ahead even earlier. This holds true even when you count cover and concealment; if you don't count cover or concealment, the Zen Archer is only ahead at level 1 (unless you play a human and pick up Rapid Shot at first level with your extra feat).
I've looked at both and found ZA to be about the same at near every level. Put together a Fighter of any archetype at whatever level you choose. I'll put together a ZA at the same level with level appropriate gear. Up to ultimate magic and combat for books. I would like to see how they stack up by someone knowing what they are...

I have a spreadsheet that calculates average damage using standard probability distribution. It can account for cover, concealment, mirror image, precision damage, DR, etc.

I started two characters side by side at level 1 and calculated level by level through level 12 against the average AC of a monster at CR=Level + 1. Feel free to argue that I don't know what I'm doing, but I've run the calculations a couple of different times with different parameters. I figured out the optimum approach for each character, then tested the two optimums against each other.

Once Weapon Training 2 kicks in, the Zen Archer can't catch up, not even with a ki point spent every round on an extra attack (which is the optimum DPR of the Zen Archer arrow tricks).

Now, all my archers are still Zen Archer-based. They're a lot more fun and have a lot more versatility. But on a strict hit-point to hit-point comparison, a fighter specialized in archery will do over 1.5 the average damage of the Zen Archer over the course of 12 levels (which is where I stop caring).


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

No it doesn't. The vestigial arm doscovery specifically states that it does not give you any extra attacks or actions, therefore no matter how many vestigial arms you have, you cannot dual-wield two-handed weapons.

If you want to wield to bows, you need to be a race that naturally has 4 arms, like the kasatha (sp), and take Multi-weapon Fighting.

"Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time)."

Silver Crusade

Gwen, can you run the DPR numbers for a level 12 human inquisitor archer? Assume the inquisition does not have any effect on combat.

Ability scores are 14/24/12/14/7
Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Weapon Focus (longbow)
Weapon: +3 adaptive composite longbow w/ cold iron arrows

Assume Destruction and Justice judgements are up for all combats and Greater Bane and haste are up for all full-round attacks.

He also has heroism up for most combats, but it's not 100% of the time.

Silver Crusade

Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:

No it doesn't. The vestigial arm doscovery specifically states that it does not give you any extra attacks or actions, therefore no matter how many vestigial arms you have, you cannot dual-wield two-handed weapons.

If you want to wield to bows, you need to be a race that naturally has 4 arms, like the kasatha (sp), and take Multi-weapon Fighting.

"Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time)."

I'm so glad you quoted the rule that proves me right. It's too bad you bolded the wrong part.

So, a normal humanoid with 2 arms can either wield a single two-handed weapon or a pair of one-handed weapons. As clearly stated by the part I have bolded, you do not gain any extra actions from having the vestigial arms. Therefore, the number of weapons you can wield in a round does not increase.

Silver Crusade

Leonardo, for further clarification, see this FAQ.

Vestigial arm FAQ said wrote:

Alchemist, Tentacle/Vestigial Arm: What does "extra attacks" mean for these discoveries?

It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."

For example, if you're low-level alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting, you can normally make two attacks per round (one with each weapon). If you take the tentacle discovery, on your turn you can make
* two weapon attacks but no tentacle attack,
* a weapon attack with your left hand plus a secondary tentacle attack, or
* a weapon attack with your right hand plus a secondary tentacle attack.
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a tentacle attack on the same turn because the tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." This language is calling out that the tentacle is not a standard natural weapon and doesn't follow the standard rules for using natural weapons (which would normally allow you to make the natural weapon attack in addition to your other attacks).

Likewise, if you instead took the vestigial arm discovery and put a weapon in that arm's hand, on your turn you can make
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your right hand,
* a weapon attack with your right hand and one with your vestigial arm, or
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your vestigial arm,
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.

Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists.

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