OK, Bestiary 4 devs, fess up :)


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One or more of you have a very obscure taste in movies. I share this, and would like to congratulate you, whoever you are, for bringing a smile to my face; I thought I was the only person who ever saw this movie! Also, if any other forum-members caught this, you're not alone.

Warning: This thread will contain unmarked spoilers for one of John Carpenter's least-known films, Prince of Darkness (1987).

Note: Anything I might say that might come across as accusatory was actually meant tongue-in-cheek. Imagine me saying it while trying to hide a smile and failing.

So, I was looking at the Immortal Ichor, Bestiary 4 page 156, and noticed almost immediately several similarities to the central antagonist of Prince of Darkness.

Oh, you might have tried to hide it, you clever designers, you. In the bestiary illustration its container is horizontal, and the liquid is purple, while in Prince of Darkness it is vertical and the liquid is green, but—oh, hoh!—I was not fooled.

In the movie, the green liquid (which, as the film title Prince of Darkness kind of gives away, is actually the Anti-Christ) is hidden in the basement of an LA church. After 6 million years (that's only a fraction of the weirdness in this movie; differential equations are part of the plot), its container is finally starting to weaken, and the priests call in some scientists to help.

Homeless people (this is late 80's LA, remember) begin congregating around the church early in Act 1, eventually preventing the scientists from leaving when Act 3 starts and the scientists realize how screwed they are. This would be (during Act 1) the Immortal Ichor's at-will charm person combined with 100 ft telepathy (the church isn't very big), followed by its Corrupt Ally ability in Act 3 when the homeless people, now under a dominate effect, violently attack anyone trying to escape the church, then board up the windows to box in the protagonists.

A bizarre number of insects (locusts in at least one scene, if I recall correctly, but at least a few scenes have a bunch of different insects) start showing up around the church, swarming the windows Amityville style. I even think at one point a scientist that tries to leave gets killed by them.

That would be the Immortal Ichor's at-will summon swarm and 3/day insect plague and creeping doom abilities.

Several of the scientists receive strange dreams during the course of the film. Even though the dreams are supposedly coming from another source, it's possible the guy who designed the monster was taking a little artistic liberty. In any event, the immortal ichor has a 3/day nightmare spell-like ability. I guess this makes sense, given the stinger at the end (which I won't spoil).

Though the ooze doesn't spawn mysterious fog clouds, mind fog otherwise perfectly describes what happens to the scientists as the movie goes on. Several of the scientists refuse to leave even before the literal murderhobos show up, seeming fascinated with the mystery despite being told that the goo in the tube is the freaking Anti-Christ. Since most of those scientists eventually get dominated with one hit from the ooze (the ichor deals 1d3 Wis drain per slam), they were probably charmed and taking 1d6 Wisdom damage per day, which is why one hit (which I presume was for subdual damage, given the slam deals 6d6+7) is enough to dominate them.

In the scene where it is first revealed that the ooze has escaped, the ooze is shown dripping from the container, but falling upward. That would explain why an ooze has a fly speed equal to its base speed, as well as the Hover feat.

If I recall correctly, it also hurls some lab equipment around with its mind in this scene (or maybe a later scene, but it was definitely in the basement). That would be its telekinesis spell-like ability.

In one scene, the female scientist who was the first to be turned gets seemingly killed, then stands back up, now covered in fright makeup. That would be the penultimate sentence of the Corrupt Ally ability, where dominated creatures that die rise as juju zombies under the Ichor's control.

And the slaves in fright makeup all collapse and die (for real) when the Anti-Christ ooze is banished, which would be the last sentence of the Corrupt Ally ability. (Since the homeless people didn't die, but were merely dominated, they are free to just wander away when the controller is banished).

There's also the small clue that the description of the Immortal Ichor is basically the plot of the movie.

So, who on the design team thought this up? I had a hard time believing that this movie (which is essentially science fiction rather than supernatural horror, though the lines get blurred towards the end) would get an homage in a Pathfinder product, especially since so many people hated it, and it was practically forgotten. If John Carpenter himself hadn't referred to it as being part of an "Apocalypse Trilogy" featuring The Thing and In The Mouth of Madness I would never have even heard of it, much less seen it. But at least one designer saw the movie and liked it enough to develop a stat block for it, because there is no way this is a coincidence.

Come to think of it, how many people here have seen this movie?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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That would have been Wes and myself.

And yes, "Prince of Darkness" was the inspiration. I don't regard it as an obscure movie, though... But that's probably because John Carpenter is my favorite director.


He's one of my favorites, as well.


I really like Immortal Ichor, and I love when when Paizo so lovingly adapts movie and book monsters.

If IIRC, there are some other similar monsters derived from movies and books in Bestiary 4...I think there is a thread somewhere around here that tried to compile them

Sovereign Court

Hmm, may have to check out that movie now.

Silver Crusade

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Did you spot the other movie monsters in the book? :)

clacks some spoons together

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

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Paizo gets lots of inspiration from movies and books. The list would likely be "Too many to count".

Contributor

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James and Wes put it on the list, I did the writeup. Glad you like it. :)


That's pretty neat. I did not make the connection but I remember Prince of Darkness. Saw it in the theater and a few times on VHS after that.

I still have the soundtrack on cassette. My friends and I would have it on in the background when we played Call of Cthulhu or Beyond the Supernatural back in the day.


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Mikaze wrote:

Did you spot the other movie monsters in the book? :)

clacks some spoons together

Oh yes, those evil insects that, hehe, Mimic people?

Silver Crusade

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OmNomNid wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

Did you spot the other movie monsters in the book? :)

clacks some spoons together

Oh yes, those evil insects that, hehe, Mimic people?

Yyyyup! :)


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Not to mention a certain plant that makes pod people...

Silver Crusade

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Don't forget the Drakainia!


Rysky wrote:
Don't forget the Drakainia!

I wish I could forget it.

Silver Crusade

Wow. And I thought I was one of the few people who enjoyed that movie. Kudos guys!


Ok... This thread now requires me to demand a list of movies to go watch..

What movies do I need to try and find at my local video store or library?

Outside of the obvious Kaiju... I think everyone knows THAT King of the Monsters and his buddies/enemies....


The Prophecy for starter, which is an early 80's horror movie featuring a bear mutated by toxic waste....which also happens to bear a bit of similarity to the Yaoguai.

Um...Hungry Flesh I think has been mentioned to be inspired by the 80's Blob remake

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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MMCJawa wrote:

The Prophecy for starter, which is an early 80's horror movie featuring a bear mutated by toxic waste....which also happens to bear a bit of similarity to the Yaoguai.

Um...Hungry Flesh I think has been mentioned to be inspired by the 80's Blob remake

The Carnivorous Blob from Bestiary 2 is actually the Blob inspiration.

And the Yaoguai is from Chinese mythology. That said... The Prophecy is a delightful movie, I must admit.


Dennis Baker wrote:
The list would likely be "Too many to count".

That is my thoughts as well.

Bestiary 4 is my favorite by miles because of it's deep seeded horror roots.


Yeah but the Yaoguai of myth are more like demons, with loose connections to bears.


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James Jacobs wrote:

That would have been Wes and myself.

And yes, "Prince of Darkness" was the inspiration. I don't regard it as an obscure movie, though... But that's probably because John Carpenter is my favorite director.

IMHO, one of the most underrated directors in Hollywood. It was a such a shame that the genius behind films such as Prince of Darkness, Big Trouble in Little China, Memoirs of an Invisible Man, The Thing, etc were not widely recognized as much as they should be.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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MMCJawa wrote:
Yeah but the Yaoguai of myth are more like demons, with loose connections to bears.

We often adjust mythology to change things in some ways, or focus in on specific elements of the mythology to the exclusion of others. This lets us have our cake and eat it too—it lets us bring in cool monsters from mythology but lets us give our own spin to them as well. Which is pretty necessary, since monsters from mythology tend to be repetitive, since they're the results of "parallel design" in cultures who share the same basic fears.


James Jacobs wrote:
We often adjust mythology to change things in some ways, or focus in on specific elements of the mythology to the exclusion of others. This lets us have our cake and eat it too—it lets us bring in cool monsters from mythology but lets us give our own spin to them as well. Which is pretty necessary, since monsters from mythology tend to be repetitive, since they're the results of "parallel design" in cultures who share the same basic fears.

Plus this allowed Paizo to introduce the Popobala without mentioning the butt stuff.


Rysky wrote:
Don't forget the Drakainia!

Okay, where is that from? What was the inspiration for it? She is one of my favorite monsters ever.


I thought it was just taken straight from Greek myth. Echidna the Mother of Monsters was a Drakainia.

Contributor

Lloyd Jackson wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Don't forget the Drakainia!
Okay, where is that from? What was the inspiration for it? She is one of my favorite monsters ever.

She's based on this "damsel."

Silver Crusade

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Lloyd Jackson wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Don't forget the Drakainia!
Okay, where is that from? What was the inspiration for it? She is one of my favorite monsters ever.
She's based on this "damsel."

Oh yeah, I had forgotten about her.

Contributor

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Rysky wrote:
Oh yeah, I had forgotten about her.

She hasn't forgotten about you.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Come to think of it, how many people here have seen this movie?

Prince of Darkness and In the Mouth of Madness are two of my favorite movies of all times. Slide Big Trouble in Little China in there and you've hit three of my top ten.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I think "In the Mouth of Madness" is one the most convoluted and incomprehensible movies I've ever seen.

Silver Crusade

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Zaister wrote:
I think "In the Mouth of Madness" is one the most convoluted and incomprehensible movies I've ever seen.

"You are not put upon this Earth to "get it", Mr. Burton!"


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Mikaze wrote:
Zaister wrote:
I think "In the Mouth of Madness" is one the most convoluted and incomprehensible movies I've ever seen.
"You are not put upon this Earth to "get it", Mr. Burton!"

Indeed!

Silver Crusade

I could have sworn that post said Big Trouble In Little China at first...[/mygodwhathaveidone]

Silver Crusade

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Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Oh yeah, I had forgotten about her.
She hasn't forgotten about you.

Well that was disturbing as all f&&%.


If I ever use the Immortal Ichor in my games, I'll one up a particular feature of it. Notably the "immortal" bit.

Calling it immortal when high level adventurers (or any other powers that be) can whack it to death is too simple.

My version of the ichor will be closer to "evil essence in liquid form", where the ancient gods trapped it so as to not release any more evil in the universe (or more competition to other evil gods). Any group of heroes actually defeating it will unwittingly raise the global level of evil in the world.

Of course, putting that evil back into the jar is its own adventure idea.

And *no*, I wouldn't make a paladin lose his paladinhood if he really was unaware of the true nature of the ichor (a classic trope); unless the paladin shrugs it off and doesn't try to fix the mess they created.


I thought it was "Immoral" not "Immortal"....


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Zaister wrote:
I think "In the Mouth of Madness" is one the most convoluted and incomprehensible movies I've ever seen.

Umm... It was an homage to H.P. Lovecraft... I really don't see the problem.

Dark Archive

Loved Prince of Darkness. The monster isn't actually Satan though, more an evil alien. Glad Jacobs and Reynolds are fans of the excellent Carpenter.

Quite a lot of his characters are easy to convert. There is a Thing equivalent, Michael Myers from Halloween is an (undead?) Barbarian, the sailors from The Fog are Wights. Less sure about Christine the Car...

Also, if you want a soundtrack to your gaming sessions, his music is routinely superb and atmospheric.


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Captain K. wrote:
Quite a lot of his characters are easy to convert. There is a Thing equivalent, Michael Myers from Halloween is an (undead?) Barbarian, the sailors from The Fog are Wights. Less sure about Christine the Car...

The undead sailors from The Fog could also be draugr from Bestiary 2. They have a nautical theme, and the darugr captains can use obscuring mist 3/day. Paizo PRD draugr

The Fog itself could be a Hungry Fog from Bestiary 3. It's a gaseous ooze with negative energy affinity and spectral shapes move in the fog. Paizo PRD Hungry Fog

I wanted to use draugr in my campaign but my campaign isn't on any significant water so I haven't used any draugr yet. Party is moving beyond the basic draugr threat level.

I don't have Bestiary 4 yet. This thread makes me want it even more.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Does my heart good to see folks talking about the best director in the biz!

The Hungry Fog is VERY much inspired by his movie, in any event. Note how well it works with undead! I'd peg the sailors from the movie as revenants who have leprosy though.

A creature inspired by the monster from The Thing was statted up in d20 Modern's Menace Manual; I had to loan my copy of the movie to Matt Sernett so he could watch it several times to get all the abilities in, and you'll note some easter eggs in the Star Doppelganger's entry in that book as a result.


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Orthos wrote:
I thought it was "Immoral" not "Immortal"....

That's its less scrupulous- but far less eternal- cousin.


James Jacobs wrote:
Does my heart good to see folks talking about the best director in the biz!

So when do we get a Snake Plissken monster?

Special power: Everyone always thinks it is dead.


Do we have a Thing expie yet? I know there is some 3pp supplements that have something like that, and I know the D20 Modern has it (as James Jacobs mentions).

Maybe Iron Gods could provide one?

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:

Does my heart good to see folks talking about the best director in the biz!

The Hungry Fog is VERY much inspired by his movie, in any event. Note how well it works with undead! I'd peg the sailors from the movie as revenants who have leprosy though.

A creature inspired by the monster from The Thing was statted up in d20 Modern's Menace Manual; I had to loan my copy of the movie to Matt Sernett so he could watch it several times to get all the abilities in, and you'll note some easter eggs in the Star Doppelganger's entry in that book as a result.

Yes, a PF version would be excellent.

JC's version of The Thing was very Lovecraftian - actually one of the best non-mythos mythos-style creatures ever depicted in cinema (HPL doesn't translate well to the cinema), if that makes any sense.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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MMCJawa wrote:

Do we have a Thing expie yet? I know there is some 3pp supplements that have something like that, and I know the D20 Modern has it (as James Jacobs mentions).

Maybe Iron Gods could provide one?

No "Things" in Iron Gods.

It's actually not a great monster for an RPG. The D20 Modern one is SUPER complicated. In fact... if I were stating it up, I'd stat it up as a disease that applies a template to you after it kills you.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Auxmaulous wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Does my heart good to see folks talking about the best director in the biz!

The Hungry Fog is VERY much inspired by his movie, in any event. Note how well it works with undead! I'd peg the sailors from the movie as revenants who have leprosy though.

A creature inspired by the monster from The Thing was statted up in d20 Modern's Menace Manual; I had to loan my copy of the movie to Matt Sernett so he could watch it several times to get all the abilities in, and you'll note some easter eggs in the Star Doppelganger's entry in that book as a result.

Yes, a PF version would be excellent.

JC's version of The Thing was very Lovecraftian - actually one of the best non-mythos mythos-style creatures ever depicted in cinema (HPL doesn't translate well to the cinema), if that makes any sense.

I actually think HPL translates VERY well to cinema... as "The Thing" shows. There's been several other excellent adaptations as well... none yet that have been all that high profile though. It's a few steps removed, but HBO's "True Detective" is a great recent example of Lovecraftian themes on screen.

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:
Auxmaulous wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Does my heart good to see folks talking about the best director in the biz!

The Hungry Fog is VERY much inspired by his movie, in any event. Note how well it works with undead! I'd peg the sailors from the movie as revenants who have leprosy though.

A creature inspired by the monster from The Thing was statted up in d20 Modern's Menace Manual; I had to loan my copy of the movie to Matt Sernett so he could watch it several times to get all the abilities in, and you'll note some easter eggs in the Star Doppelganger's entry in that book as a result.

Yes, a PF version would be excellent.

JC's version of The Thing was very Lovecraftian - actually one of the best non-mythos mythos-style creatures ever depicted in cinema (HPL doesn't translate well to the cinema), if that makes any sense.

I actually think HPL translates VERY well to cinema... as "The Thing" shows. There's been several other excellent adaptations as well... none yet that have been all that high profile though. It's a few steps removed, but HBO's "True Detective" is a great recent example of Lovecraftian themes on screen.

I'll give you True Detective - most of the other stuff (and trust me...I have most of the other "stuff") just isn't that good. Some newer film festival shorts and indie flicks have the heart - while the technical talent and production values are lacking.

And TBH - while True Detective and JC's the Thing were Lovecraftian they were not actual HPL adaptions.

Strangely enough (and a sidetrack) - HPLs work does well in theater/play/prose format.

What adaptions are you talking about specifically? The material put out by Lurker Films or the more recent full length Call of Cthulhu or Whisperer in Darkness?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What I would like to to know is if the Festering Spirit (p. 98) is the PF analogue to the Onionhead Ghost (aka "Slimer") from the Ghostbusters media franchise as I suspect it is.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Dreaming Psion wrote:
What I would like to to know is if the Festering Spirit (p. 98) is the PF analogue to the Onionhead Ghost (aka "Slimer") from the Ghostbusters media franchise as I suspect it is.

Nope. That monster's source is actually a lot more bland. We made an alternate paint of an allip or spectre or something and painted it green and called it a festering spirit as a promo mini, and decided that it needed its own monster. No real inspiration here from anywhere else than minis and our imaginations.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Auxmaulous wrote:

I'll give you True Detective - most of the other stuff (and trust me...I have most of the other "stuff") just isn't that good. Some newer film festival shorts and indie flicks have the heart - while the technical talent and production values are lacking.

And TBH - while True Detective and JC's the Thing were Lovecraftian they were not actual HPL adaptions.

Strangely enough (and a sidetrack) - HPLs work does well in theater/play/prose format.

What adaptions are you talking about specifically? The material put out by Lurker Films or the more recent full length Call of Cthulhu or Whisperer in Darkness?

Yeah, I know those are Lovecraftian but not actual HPL adaptations. That's my point—I cited those as examples of how I know that it's POSSIBLE to adapt Lovecraft... you just need the right person, the right support from a producer/studio, and the right help to make it happen.

The best adaptations I've seen would be:

Call of Cthulhu and Whisper in Darkness, both mentioned above (these are both really good)

Die Farbre, a German adaption of "The Colour out of Space"

Re-animator (sure, it's got plenty that Lovecraft would have never put into the story, but the movie itself does a great job at embracing the self-aware comedy of the original)

From Beyond's pre-credits sequence is pretty faithful and good, and what follows, as an expansion (or sequel, if you will) of what developed after that story is cool.

The Haunted Palace is the best of the Corman productions, although hampered by poor special effects. Those are made up for by Vincent Price as Charles Dexter Ward though.

Dagon is about 80% awesome and 20% not so much an adaption of Shadow Over Innsmouth.

The director's cut of "The Resurrected" is a REALLY great adaptation of Charles Dexter Ward, directed by Dan O'Bannon (the writer of Alien). The studio messed the final edit of the movie up, and that version is still good, but the director's cut, which is made from the work print and thus is missing sound in some scenes and is unfinished in some other ways with some missing effects, is actually quite good. It is, alas, almost impossible to see. A legal tangle with the studio, which is I believe bankrupt, combined with Dan O'Bannon's death makes the public release of this cut of "The Resurrected" seem unlikely. I managed to see it here in Seattle when they were doing a Lovecraft exhibit at the Seattle Arts Museum, and they showed a copy for "educational/historical purposes" which is the only way they were able to get around the legal side of the tangle...

There's been plenty of other adaptions that aren't great but that I find quite enjoyable, such as The Dunwich Horror, Die Monster Die, Dreams in the Witch House for Masters of Horror, The Unnamable, and so on.

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