Lets go with the assumption that the GM in question would disallow any personal range spells like Skinsend. I would assume any sane GM would not allow that but more importantly mine does not.
Also, I would prefer spells or alchemical items that the Alchemist would have access to himself rather than from an outside source. However, if it is just too good to pass up, please enlighten me.
I'm not seeing a lot, to be honest. Poisons are fairly hard to come by from my experience and ridiculously hard to manufacture if you use the rules for crafting mundane items. The Alchemist extract list doesn't really lend itself too well to offensive spells that you could put in them.
For the record I am thinking of using these for a Hyde type Alchemist that I am playing currently. I was thinking of combining them with Deliquescent Gloves, Greater Magic Fanged natural attacks (I know there is nothing official but my GM allows the delivery via natural and unarmed attacks), Touch Injection, and a Spell Storing Amulet of Mighty Fists. Maybe some other things if I can think of them. I actually really wanted to think of a way to mix up some concoction in one of the gloves using an Admixture Vial and something in the other glove using a Hybridization Funnel. Maybe even using Drugs (GM ok'ed this as well).
Perhaps it is a distinct lack of creativity but I am coming up a bit short of things that would be good to combine here. I need some inspiration.
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Absolutely nothin'!
Touch injection + Panacea is pretty busted. Have a friend with an alchemist who solos BBEGs in PFS with it.
Absolutely nothin'!
My man.
Touch injection + Panacea is pretty busted. Have a friend with an alchemist who solos BBEGs in PFS with it.
Touch Injection with Polypurpose Panacea (Sleep) is indeed busted, especially since you can do it at level 1 as long as you have a positive Intelligence modifier. Then you can just focus your entire build into Coup de Grace-ing the crap out of your poor victim. Probably Vivisectionist with a scythe for max cheese.
Opium, found in the Gamemastery Guide, is cheap and easy to make, and for the cost of granting an enemy a few hit points it makes them fatigued for the next hour, no save. It's a handy debuff, if that's what you're looking for.
To everyone who suggested the exact same thing repeatedly: Yes. I do mean outside of Panacea.
Please reread my original post where I said:
Lets go with the assumption that the GM in question would disallow any personal range spells like Skinsend. I would assume any sane GM would not allow that but more importantly mine does not.
Joe: Thank you for that useful suggestion. I was looking at the other drugs too. I was thinking of some way to combine it with Imbue With Addiction.
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Skinsend is a brutal way to use Touch Injection.
Also, Enlarge/Reduce Person on an enemy that would be inconvenienced by that form would be good.
Look over offensive spells on other lists (up to 3rd level) that can be made into potions. There's lots.
Blindness might be a good one.
In theory, you could buy a potion of Fireball and use it with Touch Injection. Not sure how the Reflex save would work out, or if there would be an area effect, but it would be pretty funny.
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so you mean beside the cheese people use it for? Like using Panacea to put people to sleep without saves?
This is not a valid use of this combo. There was an FAQ in July 2013 that negated it.
You make any choices about a spell when you drink the extract. The enemy could simply choose one of the beneficial effects of the spell when it gets injected.They can also choose to dismiss any effects that are dismissable whenever their turn comes up.
/facepalm
Tomos: Read the first line of my first post. Then read my last post. Stop suggesting Skinsend.
Blindness isn't on the Alchemist list. And I challenge you to find the offensive spells on the Alchemist list (as I requested in the original post). Am I blind? Because I'm not seeing them. That is kinda what this whole post is about. I'll even make it easier on you. Here is a list.
You can't make a potion of Fireball because the rules state:
It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects.
The only thing even remotely useful you have offered is Reduce Person which I find a hard time classifying as "offensive" though "inconvenienced" might be a better description. Even that is iffy.
Well, it is true that it can help with allies. It wouldn't really necessarily ruin your action economy though as the spell can be cast into it in advance of an encounter. I guess I was just looking for a way to make it apply to combat.
LessPopMoreFizz: I respectfully disagree. I think that the whole point of it is to allow spells that target "creature touched", not personal range no save spells that are meant only for voluntary use by one's self. In fact, I am willing to bet that if you ran this by a developer or JJ that they would back me up on it. Furthermore, I can't think of any situation of where a sane GM would allow this to happen more than once.
But this is irrelevant. Because my GM doesn't allow it. Period. Move on from Skinsend and Polypurpose Panacea, please.
I still feel that I am missing some good stuff here. Surely someone has used Touch Injection (or as LessPopMoreFizz pointed out, Poisoner's Glove or a Medlance) before.
I do, in fact, use it with reduce person and poisons.
Reduce person is fun because the character uses swallow whole.
But that's also in a much more rules light game with gestalt.
The intended use is to administer infusions to unconscious allies, such as cures and other things they can't drink because they're unconscious.
Also, and I'm being as polite as I can here: you might get more answers if you were being a little less acidic with the responses to posts you don't like. You may not be trying to or realize that you are, but you're coming off as being kind of rude.
I feel like you should be told this, because personally, if I was, I would want to be told.
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/facepalm
Tomos: Read the first line of my first post. Then read my last post. Stop suggesting Skinsend.
"Skinsend is a brutal way to use Touch Injection." A simple statement of fact. I read your initial post.
I agree with LessPop. There is no reason why your GM should ban this use of Touch Injection, but it is his table after all.Blindness isn't on the Alchemist list. And I challenge you to find the offensive spells on the Alchemist list (as I requested in the original post). Am I blind? Because I'm not seeing them. That is kinda what this whole post is about. I'll even make it easier on you. Here is a list.
Touch Injection specifically allows you to use potions. At mid levels, I think this is a decent use of 300gp, if only because I think it's cool. LessPop is also right about the perceived intent of Touch Injection being that you can use Personal spells on allies with it.
You can't make a potion of Fireball because the rules state:
It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects.
You may be right about fireball. However, the issue almost never comes up and the point is moot. You can make potions of other offensive spells like Scorching Ray or Inflict Critical Wounds that would work just fine.
The only thing even remotely useful you have offered is Reduce Person which I find a hard time classifying as "offensive" though "inconvenienced" might be a better description. Even that is iffy.
I think a size large enemy with a greataxe would be more than inconvenienced by dropping to size medium. Guess that's just my opinion though.
Making an enemy caster size large would be a very useful debuff.|
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I do, in fact, use it with reduce person and poisons.
Reduce person is fun because the character uses swallow whole.
But that's also in a much more rules light game with gestalt.The intended use is to administer infusions to unconscious allies, such as cures and other things they can't drink because they're unconscious.
Reducing and swallowing them is awesome. I love that idea.
Good call on the 'administering to unconscious allies' thing. It definitely helps your action economy that way.
A Touch Injection of a Cure Critical Wounds potion would be handy.
I wonder, can you deliver a touch spell at the same time as you touch inject a poison? Like pernicious poison e.g.?
/facepalm
Tomos: Read the first line of my first post. Then read my last post. Stop suggesting Skinsend.
Blindness isn't on the Alchemist list. And I challenge you to find the offensive spells on the Alchemist list (as I requested in the original post). Am I blind? Because I'm not seeing them. That is kinda what this whole post is about. I'll even make it easier on you. Here is a list.
You can't make a potion of Fireball because the rules state:
It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects.The only thing even remotely useful you have offered is Reduce Person which I find a hard time classifying as "offensive" though "inconvenienced" might be a better description. Even that is iffy.
Combat Manuever Specialists would disagree with your notion that dropping their size would only inconvience them... for some manuevers, 1 size is the difference between success and immunity...
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I wonder, can you deliver a touch spell at the same time as you touch inject a poison? Like pernicious poison e.g.?
Only if you hold the charge.
You need a standard action to use the stored potion/extract/elixir (a melee touch attack). No way around that.
The holding the charge rules indicate that you can definitely cast Pernicious Poison, hold the charge, and on your next turn make a melee touch attack to discharge the Touch Injection poison and automatically activate Pernicious Poison all at once.
There may be some table variation on this, because the rules seem to be a little contradictory. On one hand, it says "you can continue to make touch attacks" and on the other, it says "if you touch anything, even by accident, the spell discharges."
That last part is what makes this nasty combo work, by RAW.
Great idea!
Also, and I'm being as polite as I can here: you might get more answers if you were being a little less acidic with the responses to posts you don't like. You may not be trying to or realize that you are, but you're coming off as being kind of rude.
My responses were meant to be taken exactly as I wrote them. They were not rude responses. It is possible that someone took them that way but whether they did or not that has nothing to do with my intent.
I am frustrated and annoyed however when I specifically say "Lets go with the assumption that the GM in question would disallow any personal range spells like Skinsend. I would assume any sane GM would not allow that but more importantly mine does not." ...and then the next posts contain 3 posts on that exact kind of spell. Then I point that out again and to please not suggest that same thing. What happens? BAM. Same suggestion again. At that point I move off from my kid mittens and call the person out for suggesting that very thing again.
Yeah, I don't think the problem is there me being rude. I asked nicely. Twice. You suggest the same thing again expect to be called out for reading retention fail. That is the last I'll say on that. You got a problem with something I say then bring it up with me privately and leave it out of this thread. It is no longer a constructive course of conversation (and never really was).
The rest of your suggestions were somewhat helpful. Thank you for remaining constructive.
Tomos: I do not care if you think it should be ruled one way and not another. I disagree. You will not change my mind on this, I'm sure I will not change yours. Moreover, you could not possibly change my DM's mind as he isn't even here for you to convince. I will ask you once again to please move off the topic of Skinsend and Polypurpose Panacea. Your suggestions on that topic are not helpful.
I think a size large enemy with a greataxe would be more than inconvenienced by dropping to size medium. Guess that's just my opinion though.
Really? Why? His Greataxe moves to size small as well. He can still use it. In fact, you just gave him a +2 Dex, +2 AC (including the Dex), +1 Ref save, and +1 to hit. All for taking a -2 to Str? That could easily be considered a buff.
I think our theories on what is considered "very useful" vary pretty widely.
I said it was the point of Infusion. Not Touch Injection. Touch Injection is just an alternate delivery method for liquids. Some liquids can be infusions.
Ah, yes. I guess I misread that. My mistake. It probably comes from all the people wanting to argue with my DM's ruling in this thread (not helpful!). You are correct. However, I will not be getting Infusion. I am the party's tank so I will need to be focusing my feats and discoveries on that. So, unfortunately in my circumstance it is moot.
Rushley son of Halum: I actually am a Chirurgeon and while Breath of Life is awesome and awesomely useful for this I will not be getting it as I will never get to 10th level Chirurgeon. I will be going into Master Chymist. Also... he is a half-orc, but no great sword. He does have a merciful greataxe but rarely uses it. Instead he typically fights with natural attacks that he has permanent +3 greater magic fang on.
Absolutely nothin'!HUH say it again!
Good God, y'all!
The whole thread is not moot. There are other things you can use touch injection for. You just didn't bold them in the description you linked. I assure you, they are there.
It might help if I post the build for the character. Here it is.
It lasts for a number of time OR UNTIL you inject THE dose of liquid you began with.
Oh, sorry about that.
The caps were for emphasizing the important words, I didn't mean to sound harsh.
Apologies if anyone was offended by my post. :(
JoCa: No problem on the thread necro. I actually appreciate the subject getting more attention.
I agree with your evaluation of it's uses, just that there aren't a lot of good extracts on the Alchemist list to use for it. You are right though and perhaps some spell research is called for here. The Poison spell seems like a good choice. Perhaps Contagion?
We have a Witch in my party with the Brew Potion feat so that might help. I'd rather be more self sufficient though but perhaps even having her teach my character some spells would help with spell research. *shrug*
We have a Witch in my party
Bottled Misfortune might be interesting then. And of course an Elixir of Love, for further shenanigans.
How are people using this with skinsend? It's a personal range spell, which can't be put into potions to be used with touch injection. I take it alchemists have some kind of exception with their extracts?
Also, if extracts work like potions, then the subject of skinsend is treated as the caster of the spell effect. Thus, they could have their skin back on, ending the entire effect, with a simple standard action by dismissing the spell.
How are people using this with skinsend? It's a personal range spell, which can't be put into potions to be used with touch injection. I take it alchemists have some kind of exception with their extracts?
Yes, skindsend is a 2nd level alchemist extract. With the infusion discovery you can pass the extract to others. Touch Injection works with extracts.
It's a confluence of rules that was never intended to ever be allowed. Same with polypurpose panacea.
Expensive but waters of maddening (waters of lamashtu) could come in handy now and then.