Bolt Ace: How do you even?


Advice

101 to 143 of 143 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

while that is a good point, there needs to be a definition of what "Not an Action" is from a rules perspective, it there anywhere else in the game that actions are described this way?


chaoseffect wrote:
Christopher Dudley wrote:
So, however THAT looks to someone watching it happen, "Inexplicable Action" reduces it to not an action. The only thing that makes less sense than it taking no time at all is making it take less time than that.
Reloading as "not an action" doesn't really mean anything unless you need to be able fire multiple shots when it isn't your turn; can't take free actions out of turn after all. So Combat Reflexes and Snap Shot is the only way it matters?
Quote:

Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?

Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.

source

So as far as I can tell there is not point to changing reloading from a Free Action to a No Action, unless it removes the need for two hands


Diminuendo wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Christopher Dudley wrote:
So, however THAT looks to someone watching it happen, "Inexplicable Action" reduces it to not an action. The only thing that makes less sense than it taking no time at all is making it take less time than that.
Reloading as "not an action" doesn't really mean anything unless you need to be able fire multiple shots when it isn't your turn; can't take free actions out of turn after all. So Combat Reflexes and Snap Shot is the only way it matters?
Quote:

Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?

Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.

source

Cool, glad that is more crossbow friendly than I originally thought.


It's another "there isn't a rule for this" place. so up to gm's again.

the action listings in the core list requiring the ability to take said actions (like having limbs). so if it is no longer an action, it technically doesn't require an attack (but it also does not specifically say it doesn't require one) so it ends up being pretty much a GM Call.

I myself would allow it to work with tWF, because at that point your already well beyond even Batman capabilities. and at lv 11 if you worked your way to that then i'd say you figured out your ow ntricks for it.

Shadow Lodge

I wish this is the way it worked, however (besides de fact it kind doesnt makes sense "realistically" speaking, i mean popping crossbows bolts out of anywhere, maybe a fluff text would help to picture de scene)

Attacks of oportunity are also no action attacks (they are not listed as any kind of action) if "you dont need your to use hand for no actions" it also means you "dont need to use your hands to make attacks of oportunity.

The only reason for this deed is for big crossbows, double crossbows and the like. The no action part is just, i guess, a way to unlimit the reload times, which the dm as per the faq may limit if he wants


AoOs are not No Actions.


"Not an Action

Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow."

Don't see anything about not needing hands for non-actions.


Then, taking into account Snap Shot FAQ I posted, tell me how in any way a Free Action Reload is different from a No Action reload.

And for those who say it isn't "realistic" to reload without a hand free (which is already ridiculous reguarding we are talking about a world with Dragons and Magic) youre Crossbows are automaticly reloaded at the start of your thurn with or without a hand free; Inexplicable Reload already beyond the boundries of realism.


Diminuendo wrote:
Then, taking into account Snap Shot FAQ I posted, tell me how in any way a Free Action Reload is different from a No Action reload.

No Action doesn't have limits like a Free Action. No Action is also a part of other action, while a Free Action can be its own thing.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Diminuendo wrote:
Then, taking into account Snap Shot FAQ I posted, tell me how in any way a Free Action Reload is different from a No Action reload.
No Action is also a part of other action, while a Free Action can be its own thing.

What action is it that it becomes part of?


Reloading a light crossbow as a non-action would be useful if you have a particularly draconian GM who embraced the "three free actions per round" ruling and didn't approve the rollback.

Then again, at that point you're better off using a bow again. Or, y'know, finding a better GM.


graystone wrote:
What action is it that it becomes part of?

Depends. The rules state that a Non-Action is generally part of some other action. For example, nocking an arrow is part of an attack with a bow, or a 5-foot step is part of another action you take in the round (other than movement), or activating a potion's effect is part of drinking the potion, etc.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Diminuendo wrote:
Then, taking into account Snap Shot FAQ I posted, tell me how in any way a Free Action Reload is different from a No Action reload.
No Action doesn't have limits like a Free Action. No Action is also a part of other action, while a Free Action can be its own thing.

Your arguing semantics; as per the ruling from the FAQ I posted above a GM couldn't limit Rapid Reload, as you're actually reloading as part of the Ranged AoO, being able to reload as a Free Action is the prequisite to do this.

There is no functional difference in game between a reload being a Free Action or No Action if it doesn't remove the need for a second hand.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
graystone wrote:
What action is it that it becomes part of?
Depends. The rules state that a Non-Action is generally part of some other action. For example, nocking an arrow is part of an attack with a bow, or a 5-foot step is part of another action you take in the round (other than movement), or activating a potion's effect is part of drinking the potion, etc.

I was asking in THIS situation. What action is the non-action reloading of a crossbow linked to?


Diminuendo wrote:

Your arguing semantics; as per the ruling from the FAQ I posted above a GM couldn't limit Rapid Reload, as you're actually reloading as part of the Ranged AoO, being able to reload as a Free Action is the prequisite to do this.

There is no functional difference in game between a reload being a Free Action or No Action if it doesn't remove the need for a second hand.

Well, there's nothing in the rule about removing the need for a second hand, so your argument is moot either way. Also, the FAQ is for Snap Shot. If you don't use the feat, a Free Action reload follows normal Free Action rules. There's not that many situations, outside of using Snap Shot, where it would make a difference, but apparently the devs thought there's enough to justify it. For example the Combat Patrol feat, or Readying an action to shoot.

graystone wrote:
I was asking in THIS situation. What action is the non-action reloading of a crossbow linked to?

Shooting it, I guess. It simply makes it work like a bow.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:


graystone wrote:
I was asking in THIS situation. What action is the non-action reloading of a crossbow linked to?
Shooting it, I guess. It simply makes it work like a bow.

Not really the same. It says "such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow". Nocking the arrow is linked to attacking, not reloading, so it's not working as a bow.


Quote:

Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?

Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.

source


Quote:

Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?

Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.

graystone wrote:
Not really the same. It says "such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow". Nocking the arrow is linked to attacking, not reloading, so it's not working as a bow.

Whatever. I don't even understand what you're trying to say. You have no rules quotes that say you remove need for hands, so... yeah. I already explained where's the difference between Free Action and Non-Action. If you want more out of the deed's effect then houserule it.


There is nothing that you can do, as far as I can tell, with not an action that you can not do with a free action.

The changing of reloading from Free Action to Not an Action does nothing.

- it does not let you reload with no hands
- it does not let you fire more often
- it does not let you save an action
- it does not let really even let you reload faster

It is just another example of all the screwups in the ACG book.


It circumvents the limit on Free Actions.
It lets you reload not on your turn.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:

It circumvents the limit on Free Actions.

It lets you reload not on your turn.

What limit on free actions?

You can already reload not on your turn as a free action as part of an attack by basic rules of ranged combat. Example would be snap shot.


Moving in another direction, is Bolt Ace even worth going beyond level 5? Beyond maybe hitting level 11 to take signature deed. Once you hit 5 and grab your "chosen" crossbow you and grab imp. critical you'll probably be critting enough to keep your grit up anyways.

Though from that stand point, besides Hunter what are other classes that would be worthwhile multiclassing into? Warpriest maybe to up your crossbow damage further, though going that route you will get more bang for your buck using a hand or light crossbow.


Whisperknives wrote:
Anarchy_Kanya wrote:

It circumvents the limit on Free Actions.

It lets you reload not on your turn.

What limit on free actions?

Essentially at your GM's discretion.

Quote:
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn


caliga wrote:

Moving in another direction, is Bolt Ace even worth going beyond level 5? Beyond maybe hitting level 11 to take signature deed. Once you hit 5 and grab your "chosen" crossbow you and grab imp. critical you'll probably be critting enough to keep your grit up anyways.

Though from that stand point, besides Hunter what are other classes that would be worthwhile multiclassing into? Warpriest maybe to up your crossbow damage further, though going that route you will get more bang for your buck using a hand or light crossbow.

Sohei Monk -- you can flurry with your crossbow (15 levels means 3 extra attacks) and you get weapon training (up to 2). It also improves your saves without costing you bab on full attacks (once you hit level 6) and you can flurry in armor according to the FAQ.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Quote:

Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?

Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.

graystone wrote:
Not really the same. It says "such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow". Nocking the arrow is linked to attacking, not reloading, so it's not working as a bow.
Whatever. I don't even understand what you're trying to say. You have no rules quotes that say you remove need for hands, so... yeah. I already explained where's the difference between Free Action and Non-Action. If you want more out of the deed's effect then houserule it.

I'm saying as part of an AoO a reload is not a free action, but part of the ranged attack of oppurtunity, so a GM can't limit it, since no free action was taken.


Whisperknives wrote:
You can already reload not on your turn as a free action as part of an attack by basic rules of ranged combat. Example would be snap shot.

No, you can't. Snap Shot isn't an [example, it's an exception. Read the FAQ again. I already pointed out the relevant part.


Diminuendo wrote:
I'm saying as part of an AoO a reload is not a free action, but part of the ranged attack of oppurtunity, so a GM can't limit it, since no free action was taken.

It's still a Free Action and the exception for when you use it with Snap Shot doesn't say anything about removing the limit. So sure, you can relaod as part of the AoO when using Snap Shot, but the DM is still in his right to set a limit to how many times you can do it.


how do you AoO in pathfinder with a bow without Snap Shot? it's not an exception, it the only case you can.

Again, what is the functional difference in game between a freeaction reload and a no action reload?

also, would any reasonable GM rule that your BAB 16 crossbow is only allowed two reloads a turn?


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Whisperknives wrote:
You can already reload not on your turn as a free action as part of an attack by basic rules of ranged combat. Example would be snap shot.
No, you can't. Snap Shot isn't an [example, it's an exception. Read the FAQ again. I already pointed out the relevant part.

Yes, you did point that out, however you are wrong.

Snap shot is the only reason you will ever have to reload while not on your turn. You can already do that as free actions, thus making it No Action is completely worthless.

Also the day a DM tells me how many free actions I can take to reload my simple weapon. I will point out that is just a house rule. If ever my character can not complete a simple combat turn because "that is too many free actions" I will pack up my stuff and leave that game. I will never play any game that GM ever runs ever again, and if he does it is an insulting tone of voice I will probably punch him in the face.


Diminuendo wrote:

how do you AoO in pathfinder with a bow without Snap Shot?

Again, what is the functional difference in game between a freeaction reload and a no action reload?

I already answered this two questions. You ignoring the answers doesn't make them not exist.

Quote:
also, would any reasonable GM rule that your BAB 16 crossbow is only allowed two reloads a turn?

I've seen DMs that would do that. Read some Gunslinger threads. More specifically those that complain about Gunslingers making too many attacks a round. Those are the type of DMs that would not allow it due to "realism." Same thing here, you just don't see many people complain because crossbows aren't as effective as guns.


Whisperknives wrote:
Yes, you did point that out, however you are wrong.

It is you who is wrong. The exception is made just for Snap Shot, those are the rules.

Quote:
Snap shot is the only reason you will ever have to reload while not on your turn.

No, it's not, as already explained earlier. It really helps in a discussion when you actually read what others write.

Quote:
You can already do that as free actions

When using Snap Shot.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
...Those are the type of DMs that would not allow it due to "realism." Same thing here, you just don't see many people complain because crossbows aren't as effective as guns.

If a GM quotes "realism" I will ask him to remove all dwarves, elves, dragons, magic, ect from the game.


Diminuendo wrote:
Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
...Those are the type of DMs that would not allow it due to "realism." Same thing here, you just don't see many people complain because crossbows aren't as effective as guns.
If a GM quotes "realism" I will ask him to remove all dwarves, elves, dragons, magic, ect from the game.

Implying that guy who plays Tyrion Lannister in Game of Thrones and the evil professor dude from the latest X-Men movie is a myth.


Diminuendo wrote:
If a GM quotes "realism" I will ask him to remove all dwarves, elves, dragons, magic, ect from the game.

That argument won't work on many of those DMs, because you see, elves and dwarves and magic is realistic, whithin the fantasy world you're playing in that is, so it all gets a pass. Reloading a crossbow or gun very very fast on the other hand? Those things actually exist in RW, but doing it is impossible, so it's not allowed.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Diminuendo wrote:
If a GM quotes "realism" I will ask him to remove all dwarves, elves, dragons, magic, ect from the game.
That argument won't work on many of those DMs, because you see, elves and dwarves and magic is realistic, whithin the fantasy world you're playing in that is, so it all gets a pass. Reloading a crossbow or gun very very fast on the other hand? Those things actually exist in RW, but doing it is impossible, so it's not allowed.

To be fair this is also happening in the same world where people of a certain caliber could fall to earth from orbit, get up and walk it off, and then get stabbed in the bare chest with a dagger only to have it literally not even break skin. Eventually you need to consider the fact that the peak of human physical perfection in the fantasy world is much, much higher that the real world, so arbitrarily applying "realism" to it doesn't make as much sense as you would think.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Diminuendo wrote:
If a GM quotes "realism" I will ask him to remove all dwarves, elves, dragons, magic, ect from the game.
That argument won't work on many of those DMs, because you see, elves and dwarves and magic is realistic, whithin the fantasy world you're playing in that is, so it all gets a pass. Reloading a crossbow or gun very very fast on the other hand? Those things actually exist in RW, but doing it is impossible, so it's not allowed.

then my GM is unreasonable and I'll take my 4 itterative attacking crossbow wielder to another game where he can use 4 itterative attacks a turn.

Pathfinder is not realistic; the sooner you accept this the happier you'll be

Silver Crusade

There are other feats that allow you to make a ranged attack when it is not your turn, although the only ones I can think of are teamwork feats.

However, the only way you would ever have to reload when it is not your turn is if you took multiple AOOs on the same turn. Otherwise, you could reload after your last shot on your turn, fire on your AOO, then reload before your first shot on your turn.


wouldnt no action allow you to reload at any time as in even during their turn?


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
However, the only way you would ever have to reload when it is not your turn is if you took multiple AOOs on the same turn.

It's not unheard of. That's what Combat Reflexes is for after all.


Dwarf Mage wrote:
wouldnt no action allow you to reload at any time as in even during their turn?

Yes, as pointed out already.


chaoseffect wrote:
To be fair this is also happening in the same world where people of a certain caliber could fall to earth from orbit, get up and walk it off, and then get stabbed in the bare chest with a dagger only to have it literally not even break skin. Eventually you need to consider the fact that the peak of human physical perfection in the fantasy world is much, much higher that the real world, so arbitrarily applying "realism" to it doesn't make as much sense as you would think.

Tell that to those DM.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
To be fair this is also happening in the same world where people of a certain caliber could fall to earth from orbit, get up and walk it off, and then get stabbed in the bare chest with a dagger only to have it literally not even break skin. Eventually you need to consider the fact that the peak of human physical perfection in the fantasy world is much, much higher that the real world, so arbitrarily applying "realism" to it doesn't make as much sense as you would think.
Tell that to those DM.

I would. And if they are reading this topic, I did.


Cool.

1 to 50 of 143 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Bolt Ace: How do you even? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.