Stoneskin and Ring of Continuation


Rules Questions


RING OF CONTINUATION
Price 56,000 gp; Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Weight —

This band of braided copper wires throbs ever so slightly in harmony with its wearer's heartbeat. Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a spell with a range of personal, that spell remains in effect for 24 hours or until the wearer casts another spell with a range of personal (whichever comes first). Spells that usually only affect one specific action (such as making a particular attack) are expended after that action. This does not reduce the duration of spells that normally last longer than 24 hours. Casting a new spell does not eliminate a previous spell if its normal duration is such that it would still be in effect. However, attempts to dispel or otherwise eliminate a spell kept active by the ring work normally and, if successful, remove the spell from the ring, causing the wearer to lose all benefits from that spell.

Personal
The spell affects only you.

If you are using a spell to only effect you, it is, in essence, a personal spell.

So, here is the question: can the Ring of Continuation be used with Stoneskin when it is being cast by the caster on the caster?


First I wanted to check this, due to the duration issue that is often missed with this ring.

Quote:

Ring of Continuation: Can you use this to cast time stop with a duration of 24 hours?

This item has had some unintended consequences and needs a fix. Change the second sentence of the description to read as follows:
"Whenever the wearer of the ring casts a spell with a range of personal and a duration of 10 minutes per level or greater, that spell remains in effect for 24 hours or until the wearer casts another spell with a range of personal (whichever comes first)."
This answer originally appeared in the 9/11/12 Paizo blog.

But Stoneskin does have a duration of 10 min/lvl.

However, stoneskin has a target of creature touched, not personal. Personal is a different thing altogether.

Look at Disguise Self for instance, that is a personal spell. A spell with a range of creature touched, even when used on yourself isn't personal. And doesn't qualify for use with the ring.

Shadow Lodge

No. Stoneskin is not a personal spell. To qualify as a personal spell it has to have a range of personal such as the Shield spell.


Stoneskin isn't a Range: Personal spell. It's a Range: Touch spell. Therefor, it doesn't work.


I would call this b!%%&!#s, but the other endgame personal spell (shapechange) has DR 10/magic, which more or less works fine.
I'll find a different spell to put on this. Until Shapechange or any other spell that grants DR comes into usability, Defending Bone works just fine, albeit it is somewhat pointless to use the ring for that at higher levels considering it is 1 hr/lvl.


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DR 10/magic is pointless after about level 4. People will start having magic weapons, and the DR is bypassed.

Also it's not BS. It's just the restriction. And Shapechange does way more than Stoneskin, it's also a 9th level spell. Sorry it's not conveniently good for you, but that doesn't make it BS.


Claxon wrote:

DR 10/magic is pointless after about level 4. People will start having magic weapons, and the DR is bypassed.

Also it's not BS. It's just the restriction. And Shapechange does way more than Stoneskin, it's also a 9th level spell. Sorry it's not conveniently good for you, but that doesn't make it BS.

To be quite honest, I strongly disagree with this statement. Here's why:

What the !$*& spells are there have Target Personal and a 10 Min./Level Duration?!

Not a damn one.

Especially not one that's useful for when you can get it with this ring. 56,000 gold is a very costly expenditure of cash, not one that can be done willy-nilly until the lategame when you're in the process of leveling.

While I understand they wanted to reduce the amount of abuse that could be done with spells like Time Stop, they should've limited it to Minute/Level spells with Creature Touched or Personal spells; this limitation is way too much, so much that it borders useless, if not already crosses that line.

If I'm going to be dropping 56,000 gold on a ring that is supposed to give me that kind of power, I might as well say screw that and snatch a Ring of Evasion or Ring of Freedom of Movement with that kind of cash to spend. And I'd have money left over to buy other goodies.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Claxon wrote:

DR 10/magic is pointless after about level 4. People will start having magic weapons, and the DR is bypassed.

Also it's not BS. It's just the restriction. And Shapechange does way more than Stoneskin, it's also a 9th level spell. Sorry it's not conveniently good for you, but that doesn't make it BS.

To be quite honest, I strongly disagree with this statement. Here's why:

What the !$*& spells are there have Target Personal and a 10 Min./Level Duration?!

Not a damn one.

Especially not one that's useful for when you can get it with this ring. 56,000 gold is a very costly expenditure of cash, not one that can be done willy-nilly until the lategame when you're in the process of leveling.

While I understand they wanted to reduce the amount of abuse that could be done with spells like Time Stop, they should've limited it to Minute/Level spells with Creature Touched or Personal spells; this limitation is way too much, so much that it borders useless, if not already crosses that line.

If I'm going to be dropping 56,000 gold on a ring that is supposed to give me that kind of power, I might as well say screw that and snatch a Ring of Evasion or Ring of Freedom of Movement with that kind of cash to spend. And I'd have money left over to buy other goodies.

There are plenty of spells that have range personal and duration of 10 min/level or greater. That you don't find them useful is not relevant.

The item is useful, even if it isn't as useful as you would like it to be.


Claxon wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Claxon wrote:

DR 10/magic is pointless after about level 4. People will start having magic weapons, and the DR is bypassed.

Also it's not BS. It's just the restriction. And Shapechange does way more than Stoneskin, it's also a 9th level spell. Sorry it's not conveniently good for you, but that doesn't make it BS.

To be quite honest, I strongly disagree with this statement. Here's why:

What the !$*& spells are there have Target Personal and a 10 Min./Level Duration?!

Not a damn one.

Especially not one that's useful for when you can get it with this ring. 56,000 gold is a very costly expenditure of cash, not one that can be done willy-nilly until the lategame when you're in the process of leveling.

While I understand they wanted to reduce the amount of abuse that could be done with spells like Time Stop, they should've limited it to Minute/Level spells with Creature Touched or Personal spells; this limitation is way too much, so much that it borders useless, if not already crosses that line.

If I'm going to be dropping 56,000 gold on a ring that is supposed to give me that kind of power, I might as well say screw that and snatch a Ring of Evasion or Ring of Freedom of Movement with that kind of cash to spend. And I'd have money left over to buy other goodies.

There are plenty of spells that have range personal and duration of 10 min/level or greater. That you don't find them useful is not relevant.

The item is useful, even if it isn't as useful as you would like it to be.

[citations needed], because quite frankly I don't know a single spell that follows those limitations or less, much less a spell that is in the hardcovers and is actually worth anything.

Grand Lodge

Shapechange is the only one I could find that was Personal, had a 10 min./level duration, and was worth 56k to have going 24/7.


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Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Find the Path, Foresight, Freedom of Movement, Glibness, Meld into Stone, Pattern Recognition, Read Magic, See Invisibility, Shapechange and Spell Turning

All are 'Range: Personal' & 'Duration: 10 min./level'.

Grand Lodge

Splendor wrote:

Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Find the Path, Foresight, Freedom of Movement, Glibness, Meld into Stone, Pattern Recognition, Read Magic, See Invisibility, Shapechange and Spell Turning

All are 'Range: Personal' & 'Duration: 10 min./level'.

Okay, now list the ones that you'd pay 56k to have up for 24 hours at a time. Note that you can get permanent versions of Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Freedom of Movement, Read Magic, and See Invisibility for much cheaper than the ring.


Jeff Merola wrote:
Splendor wrote:

Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Find the Path, Foresight, Freedom of Movement, Glibness, Meld into Stone, Pattern Recognition, Read Magic, See Invisibility, Shapechange and Spell Turning

All are 'Range: Personal' & 'Duration: 10 min./level'.

Okay, now list the ones that you'd pay 56k to have up for 24 hours at a time. Note that you can get permanent versions of Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Freedom of Movement, Read Magic, and See Invisibility for much cheaper than the ring.

Yes, but the ring offers you the opportunity to have those semi-permanently any one at a time. And, unlike the permanent versions, if the ring is dispelled you can recast and don't lose money as you do with a permanent spell being dispelled.

I agree, that's it's not great. But that's not important, there are plenty of things that aren't great in Pathfinder. House rule it if you want, but the rules are clear. B+$~&ing and complaining like this in this thread isn't going to really get us anywhere.


Splendor wrote:

Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Find the Path, Foresight, Freedom of Movement, Glibness, Meld into Stone, Pattern Recognition, Read Magic, See Invisibility, Shapechange and Spell Turning

All are 'Range: Personal' & 'Duration: 10 min./level'.

Helm of Comprehend Languages & Read Magic makes it pointless to put that on a Ring of Continuation. Additionally, a Wizard who has that ring would probably know every single language possible anyway, defeating that purpose. Finally, this also contains Read Magic, so two birds.

Hat of Disguise and its greater form makes it pointless to put that on a Ring of Continuation.

Find the Path might be helpful if you're on a long-term campaign to go from Point A to Point B, but by the time you can cast this spell (I have no idea why it is such a high level spell), Teleport says "Hi." Additionally, it only works for one destination you specify per casting, so it defeats that purpose.

Foresight is probably one of the spells that would go well with it, since it actually gives a unique bonus type. Unfortunately, it's a 9th level spell, and there are much better things to get with 9th level spells instead of that...

You're kidding about Freedom of Movement for a Ring of Continuation, right?

If a Bard is investing in a Ring of Continuation, then they might want Glibness. However, that's quite a pitiful expenditure of funds for a Bard given the other options he has. Good luck making a Wizard make use of it.

Meld Into Stone has minor uses, but is a very risky gambit to use. This would be a spell you put on a scroll, not into a ring.

Pattern Recognition is a big joke. Every character should have their Perception cracked up the wazoo, and if that's not good enough, it's not something you should be fighting anyway. And the Survival bonus is situational at best.

See Invisibility is probably the only reason you'd ever want it on anyone other than a Wizard. But, since it's limited to 24 hours instead of a constant effect, it's value isn't anywhere near the level it could be.

Shapechange works if you are a Dragon Disciple, Wildshape Druid, etc. I don't see too much particular use for it otherwise. Since it frees up a 9th level spell slot/use per day, it's definitely got value.

Spell Turning falls under the True Strike clause that was the case for the Ring of Continuation pre-errata, in that once it's cast, it stops working after a set amount is turned, and once they are stopped, the spell is expended. Nice try on this one.

Needless to say, that's hardly an impressive list. It reminds me of a scene from a famous television series...

The Reference:
Quote:

Leonard: You know what, I’m happy that Penny’s moving on. It gives me the freedom to move on myself.

Howard: Are you saying that you’ve been holding back?

Leonard: Of course. Out of respect.

Howard: So, how do you explain the ten years before Penny?

Raj: Who were you respecting then?

Leonard: What? I’ve dated plenty of women. There was Joyce Kim, Leslie Winkle.

Sheldon: Notify the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary, the word plenty has been redefined to mean two.


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It is a sub-par item and you're right I wouldn't buy it. But there are alot of magical items that suck and I wouldn't buy.

But price it again for being able to extend See Invisibility, Comprehend Languages or Freedom of Movement for as long as you'd like each time you cast it.

Ring of Enduring Spells
If you cast any of the following spell: Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Find the Path, Foresight, Freedom of Movement, Glibness, Meld into Stone, Pattern Recognition, Read Magic, See Invisibility, Shapechange and Spell Turning; the duration is extended to 24 hours or until you cast another spell on this list.

9th level spell max, 17th level caster, 2000gp item, 1.5 duration, 1/5 limited use, -30% specific item requirements.
9*17*2000*1.5/5*.7=64,260gp

I can see how they got the cost, but yeah its a dumb ring. Don't buy it.

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Splendor wrote:

Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Find the Path, Foresight, Freedom of Movement, Glibness, Meld into Stone, Pattern Recognition, Read Magic, See Invisibility, Shapechange and Spell Turning

All are 'Range: Personal' & 'Duration: 10 min./level'.

Okay, now list the ones that you'd pay 56k to have up for 24 hours at a time. Note that you can get permanent versions of Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Freedom of Movement, Read Magic, and See Invisibility for much cheaper than the ring.

Yes, but the ring offers you the opportunity to have those semi-permanently any one at a time. And, unlike the permanent versions, if the ring is dispelled you can recast and don't lose money as you do with a permanent spell being dispelled.

I agree, that's it's not great. But that's not important, there are plenty of things that aren't great in Pathfinder. House rule it if you want, but the rules are clear. B+@$%ing and complaining like this in this thread isn't going to really get us anywhere.

I was talking about items that granted always on versions of those spells, not Permanency.

And you were the one who originally said it was still "useful", but now are saying that it's "not great."


Jeff Merola wrote:
And you were the one who originally said it was still "useful", but now are saying that it's "not great."

Useful doesn't mean it's great, or optimal. It means it has uses, and it does.

Think of it this way...it's a ring of freedom of movement (normally costs 40000 gp) which can for an additional 16000 gp has the option to be and do other things if you want or need it to.

Grand Lodge

Not really? I mean, yeah, you can cast Freedom of Movement with the ring. But you have to make sure that you don't ever cast another Personal spell with a duration of 10 min/level (or greater) after casting Freedom of Movement or the new one supersedes the old one and your Freedom of Movement is back to the normal duration.

And I'd argue that for something to be useful it needs to not be worse than the alternatives, and until you get to be able to cast things like Shapechange, the ring is definitely worse than the alternatives.

I mean, there are lots of things that can be used for things that most people wouldn't describe as "useful."


Claxon wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
And you were the one who originally said it was still "useful", but now are saying that it's "not great."

Useful doesn't mean it's great, or optimal. It means it has uses, and it does.

Think of it this way...it's a ring of freedom of movement (normally costs 40000 gp) which can for an additional 16000 gp has the option to be and do other things if you want or need it to.

That's a pretty weak argument, considering a Ring of FoM is a permanent effect (longer than 24 hours) and doesn't require a spell-caster to activate it daily.


I say it is B.S. because there are plenty of spells that are "Personal or Touch." This leads me to believe that any touch spell that targets a single target and is cast on one's self not being treated as "Personal" for that casting is arbitrary.

Freedom of Movement, since you guys are talking about it, is a prime example. Is it Personal or is it Touch? Which is it? Evidently the designers cannot make up their minds. Honestly, any spell that you cast on yourself that affects only you should be considered Personal. Stoneskin, for example, would work, Communal Stoneskin would not work because it is a buff that applies to more than one person, thereby not being personal.

There are only a handful of spells that are even compatible with this ring, and honestly, considering Stoneskin can be cast for free, more or less, with False Focus it isn't a spell that anyone will miss.

I take this as an example of Paizo's bad design and writing. If you want an even more egregious example just look up Harpies and their Captivating Song.


You must have glibness on a ring of continuation, to so effectively lie to yourself and become convinced it's B.S. you can't have 24 hour stoneskin. If you hate it that bad just get rid of it and grab a different ring.


Well, there's some winners. Find the Path is nice at 24 hours. Worth the cost too. Foresight is decent and Shapechange is broken good (and really, this ring should be called infinite shapechange ring), but 9th level. Aura of Doom probably isn't worth blowing the money over but is a fairly decent, constant debuff. Honeyed Tongue for the bard who doesn't want to blow it. Glibness is also pretty nice at 24 hours. Echolocation for 40 foot blindsight? Yes please.


KuntaSS wrote:
You must have glibness on a ring of continuation, to so effectively lie to yourself and become convinced it's B.S. you can't have 24 hour stoneskin. If you hate it that bad just get rid of it and grab a different ring.

The pot calling the kettle black here.

Since Stoneskin expires after the DR absorbs a certain amount of damage, it's hardly gamebreaking or bull$#@! to allow it to be put it into the ring, especially considering that when you have, let's say, a CL of 22 for Stoneskin, after his item absorbs 220 points of damage, the spell ends as normal and he has to recast it into the ring. Quite frankly, it's at best a safety precaution, and at worst, no different than the spell being cast as a pre-combat buff.

Additionally, the RAW says that only the wearer of the ring can cast spells into it, so you can't bum it off of your party caster if you're a Martial wearing the ring. (You could try a Wand of Stoneskin, but good luck getting one that's any good, and for cheap.)

It's not my fault the players decided to play a round of munchkin that resulted in this item going from pretty useful to borderline vendor trash by saying "Hey Devs, I found a way to cheat because I like doing that."


No, the problem with the original version wasn't "cheating" or gimmicks. The problem with the original version was turning rounds/level spells into 24 hour spells, just like 3.5 persistent spell. 24 hour divine power meant CoDzilla was making a comeback. 24 hour almost any polymorph spell meant the wizard got to get in on the fun of making everyone else feel small.


Exactly, trying to argue touch should count as personal to get your stoneskin on a ring of continuation is B.S. You open up some ridiculous can of worms with that sort of idea, and the emphasis was yours Darksol, I wasn't trying to point out that stoneskin was too powerful an effect, only that he was making a big stink over not being able to put it on his ring of cont. If he really wants it he can grab the belt version or see if his DM will let him reskin it as a ring for similar cost and no headache. Instead he comes on the forums and calls B.S. that it won't go on the ring in hopes of... what? That Paizo will actually make a FAQ for this (which is neither FAQ-worthy or debatable)? So he can get a few people to agree and have backup for trying to get his DM to let him do it?


KuntaSS wrote:
Exactly, trying to argue touch should count as personal to get your stoneskin on a ring of continuation is B.S. You open up some ridiculous can of worms with that sort of idea, and the emphasis was yours Darksol, I wasn't trying to point out that stoneskin was too powerful an effect, only that he was making a big stink over not being able to put it on his ring of cont. If he really wants it he can grab the belt version or see if his DM will let him reskin it as a ring for similar cost and no headache. Instead he comes on the forums and calls B.S. that it won't go on the ring in hopes of... what? That Paizo will actually make a FAQ for this (which is neither FAQ-worthy or debatable)? So he can get a few people to agree and have backup for trying to get his DM to let him do it?

Like what? 24 hour Heroism? By the time you get this ring, 24 hour Heroism is a joke, and quite frankly nothing too special. It's also something that a Wizard doesn't really need. 24 hour GMW or GMV so you can run around with +5 weapons and armor? Targets only an item, not yourself, so not valid, and even if that wasn't the case, why would Wizards be wearing armor or using weapons?

The Belt version is garbage in comparison, since that not only absorbs nowhere near the amount that is plausible by that level, but it also costs more for no good reason. It's not a permanent "Grants target DR 10/Adamantine," like it should be for that cost, it instead grants that until a certain amount of damage is absorbed, in which case it becomes useless.

It might be good for the min-maxer who can 1-round any given creature, but when its life expectancy is at-best a single combat when fighting a BBEG with his mooks, it's stupid, especially in comparison to a stat belt that all classes would find more value in. The worst part is that the Belt is even more expensive than the ring...

You're reading too literal in his claim; it's that the ring in general has very little to offer as it stands, since spells that follow the given restrictions are few in number, and even fewer in value. The reason it was reduced was because of the power of round/level spells, and this level of reduction was way too far given the price that it has. Limiting it to creature touched or personal spells, and cutting it to minute/level or higher durations would've made the item much more valuable. Now, at best, you can transform to any sort of dragon or giant or whatever, and even that is only valuable to a set handful of character playstyles because of the overriding mechanics that come with using Shapechange.

Ironically enough, I don't think Time Stop by RAW was ever eligible for being put into the Ring anyway, since it's a set variable duration instead of a scaling variable duration, the requisite for use of being put in the ring for a 24 hour duration. As it sits though, I don't have the pre-errata text on my person, so it could be either or.


I kind of wish you could use this with Winds of Vengeance.

Stupid FAQs killing my space/ocean adventures.


If you're wondering why I am asking this question and looking for a work around, it is due to creating a Melee Wizard. He has a decent AC from his SU abilities from his school and sub-school, and with transformation he can be deadly with his ≈35 dexterity at 20. This isn't much, but with an AC around 60 at 20 he is somewhat difficult to hit with his school buffs going. Transform into a dragon and transformation isn't needed, albeit the SU +10 to a physical attribute at 20 would likely be applied to STR instead to deal some nice damage on hits.


The belt version would work no different than the ring version with the spell cast into it. The only difference is the belt doesn't cost spell slots, but you can't cast into it multiple times in one day. In addition, the belt absorbs the maximum amount stoneskin can absorb, while one you cast into the ring will absorb less until you are at least 15th level and never more. So unless you like to burn up spell slots to keep it going, you might as well take the belt.

If you want stoneskin specifically, just take the belt. It actually works, and it works the same as the ring would have but without costing spell slots. If you don't like the options for the ring of continuation, don't use it.

Touche' on the touch spells though, it appears there aren't many great 10min/level touch spells on the D20pfsrd as of right now. However expecting that kind of rule change for the purpose of one spell which is easily replicated with another similarly priced magic item is ridiculous. It'd be like complaining the Righteous Fist Amulet doesn't let you throw fireballs, when for the same price there is a perfectly good Necklace of Fireballs.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

RING OF CONTINUATION

Price 56,000 gp; Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Weight —

This band of braided copper wires throbs ever so slightly in harmony with its wearer's heartbeat. Whenever the wearer of this ring casts a spell with a range of personal, that spell remains in effect for 24 hours or until the wearer casts another spell with a range of personal (whichever comes first). Spells that usually only affect one specific action (such as making a particular attack) are expended after that action. This does not reduce the duration of spells that normally last longer than 24 hours. Casting a new spell does not eliminate a previous spell if its normal duration is such that it would still be in effect. However, attempts to dispel or otherwise eliminate a spell kept active by the ring work normally and, if successful, remove the spell from the ring, causing the wearer to lose all benefits from that spell.

Personal
The spell affects only you.

If you are using a spell to only effect you, it is, in essence, a personal spell.

So, here is the question: can the Ring of Continuation be used with Stoneskin when it is being cast by the caster on the caster?

No because stone kin's range is a "Creature touched" spell. For the ring to work the spell's range has to be "Personal" period.

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