Nonlethal Damage without the -4 Penalty


Rules Questions


Is there a feat somewhere that negates this penalty?


You could add the merciful enchantment to your weapon.


The Blade of Mercy trait negates it for slashing weapons, and I'm pretty sure there's another trait out there that reduces it to a -2.


A bit of research will pull up a few prestige classes and archetypes that d the trick (I know they're out there, but mind blank at the moment), I don't recall seeing a feat doing that though.


I was hoping to be able to use a feat instead of investing in a magic weapon. Looks like I'll be making up a feat later on today.. lol


Bludgeoner does this for....well bludgeoning weapons.

With Blade of Mercy as an option as well (and since you are in a position to just make feats, removing religion prerequisites is not hard), only piercing weapons are a problem.


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lemeres wrote:

Bludgeoner does this for....well bludgeoning weapons.

With Blade of Mercy as an option as well (and since you are in a position to just make feats, removing religion prerequisites is not hard), only piercing weapons are a problem.

Well...it is kind of hard to skewer someone non-lethally ;)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

There is a feat from Champions of Purity called Virtuous Creed that can do this for you. If your selected virtue is mercy, you take no penalty when trying to deal non-lethal damage with a weapon, but must go out of your way to stabilize your enemies and can never bring undue suffering to the innocent.

However, it requires that you be good, and if you violate the terms of the feat, you have to get an atonement before you can use the feat's bonuses again.


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Sniggevert wrote:
Well...it is kind of hard to skewer someone non-lethally ;)

But if you did it with luv....


The Bludgeoner feat will do fine, since unarmed strikes are considered bludgeoning. I guess I forgot this feat existed. Thanks, Lemeres.


...unarmed strikes are nonlethal by default. Even with the improved unarmed strike feat, you are simply given the option to deal lethal damage. Unless there is some ability that somehow prevents it (maybe something barbarian related?) you should not need any extra feats

Oh, and I vaguely think it is possible to non lethally attack with a piercing weapon....if it isn't a piercing weapon any more. Weapon Veratility can switch up the weapon damage of any weapon you have weapon focus for. It is a feat that comes from a Paizo book concerning undead- basically, it is so you can greatsword liches (not that I mind - the comic Berzerk, which has served as a key source for dark fantasy and 2 handed greatsword using for decades, has shown us how to properly take care of swarms- just look it up, although mature content, obviously)

Point is- you can use this to Errol Flynn up your rapier so it does slashing damage (ergo, qualifying it for blade of mercy) or maybe just smack people with the other end of your spear (for bludgeoner).


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Nonlethal damage with a piercing/slashing weapon is the same thing as 'shooting to wound'. Attacks in the extremities and avoiding major organs.


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Zhayne wrote:
Nonlethal damage with a piercing/slashing weapon is the same thing as 'shooting to wound'. Attacks in the extremities and avoiding major organs.

Yeah, but any piercing wound has a very high chance of going bad...quickly.

Humans keep a lot of important arteries and veins on the deeper parts, protected by their skin, fat, and such. A light slash might only cause pain and surface damage.... you need expertise in order to routinely stab someone without anything going bad.

Stabs also tend to heal with more complications (less of a problem in game, but still, I want to discuss this). With lacerations, they tend to bleed out more, but that helps to flush out contaminants. In contrast, a puncture is more likely to be closed up with who knows what in it, and it is harder to clean properly compared to a cut.

Overall, I think I would go with bludgeoning. Sure, that might cause internal bleeding (which is a hell of a thing to try to deal with), but they are less likely to cause an open wound that bleeds out immediately. Just don't aim for the head and such, and you might well be fine.

Admittedly, my medical knowledge is rather shallow. Sorry if there are any mistakes.

Sovereign Court

The merciful weapon property is decent.


If your goal is to use Unarmed strike; no further work is needed.
If it's to use a blunt weapon, Bludgeoner is best
If it's to use ANY weapon, I'd suggest Virtuous Creed: Mercy, if you can run with the requirements; They are not too demanding.


lemeres wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Nonlethal damage with a piercing/slashing weapon is the same thing as 'shooting to wound'. Attacks in the extremities and avoiding major organs.

Yeah, but any piercing wound has a very high chance of going bad...quickly.

In the real world, yes.

In fantastic reality, no.


There is the crappy half-orc paladin archetype

Merciful Smite (Su): At 1st level, when a redeemer chooses to smite a creature, she can have all of her attacks against the target deal nonlethal damage. She does not take the normal –4 attack roll penalty for using a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage. She cannot use this ability to deal nonlethal damage to outsiders with the evil subtype, evil-aligned dragons, or undead creatures (these creatures take lethal damage from her smite). This otherwise works like and replaces the standard paladin's smite evil

Grand Lodge

Dealing nonlethal with unarmed strikes require no special feat, trait, or class feature, and can be done without a -4 penalty.

Sovereign Court

I'm also a fan of Golden Legion's Stayed Blade.


Sap, whip and bolas are also nonlethal by default.

Dark Archive

GoldEdition42 wrote:

There is the crappy half-orc paladin archetype

Merciful Smite (Su): At 1st level, when a redeemer chooses to smite a creature, she can have all of her attacks against the target deal nonlethal damage. She does not take the normal –4 attack roll penalty for using a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage. She cannot use this ability to deal nonlethal damage to outsiders with the evil subtype, evil-aligned dragons, or undead creatures (these creatures take lethal damage from her smite). This otherwise works like and replaces the standard paladin's smite evil

Whoa, there. Redeemer may be a little more focused in its abilities than a regular Paladin, but I think calling it crappy is a bit much.


Seranov wrote:
GoldEdition42 wrote:

There is the crappy half-orc paladin archetype

Merciful Smite (Su): At 1st level, when a redeemer chooses to smite a creature, she can have all of her attacks against the target deal nonlethal damage. She does not take the normal –4 attack roll penalty for using a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage. She cannot use this ability to deal nonlethal damage to outsiders with the evil subtype, evil-aligned dragons, or undead creatures (these creatures take lethal damage from her smite). This otherwise works like and replaces the standard paladin's smite evil

Whoa, there. Redeemer may be a little more focused in its abilities than a regular Paladin, but I think calling it crappy is a bit much.

Sorry about that. I was having a bad day at work. :(

Grand Lodge

GoldEdition42 wrote:

There is the crappy half-orc paladin archetype

Merciful Smite (Su): At 1st level, when a redeemer chooses to smite a creature, she can have all of her attacks against the target deal nonlethal damage. She does not take the normal –4 attack roll penalty for using a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage. She cannot use this ability to deal nonlethal damage to outsiders with the evil subtype, evil-aligned dragons, or undead creatures (these creatures take lethal damage from her smite). This otherwise works like and replaces the standard paladin's smite evil

Actually, the change in the Code of Conduct that this archetype provides, is a huge draw.


Is there anything against using a feat like boar/snake style to make non-lethal slashing/piercing IUS attacks without the -4 penalty?

Lantern Lodge

cnetarian wrote:
Is there anything against using a feat like boar/snake style to make non-lethal slashing/piercing IUS attacks without the -4 penalty?

with those styles it doesnt change the fact you still get to choose NonLethal or Lethal damage. So Yes you can do non lethal with a peircing or Slashing Unarmed strikes


cnetarian wrote:
Is there anything against using a feat like boar/snake style to make non-lethal slashing/piercing IUS attacks without the -4 penalty?

nope. You can impale people on your arm all you want (and there is a feat for that, which has a semi-associated feat that seems almost specifically designed to make unarmed strikes count for it).

Overall, I would count that more as an anime-esque move to nonfatally impale you arm onto someone...which I am perfectly fine with. Just don't raise any deathflags immediately before or afterwards, or your hp is going straight into the negatives (even if you only suffered 1 damage and you were at full health)

Oh, and you can do it with only the boar style feats, since boar ferocity adds piercing.

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