James Jacobs Creative Director |
James Jacobs Creative Director |
James Jacobs Creative Director |
James Jacobs Creative Director |
If a character is suffering from an effect that can only target creatures of one gender (such as certain types of venereal disease, or familial curses such as "the firstborn sons of House Blahblah shall all die before their sixteenth winter"), does drinking the elixir remove the effect? And if the effect is removed, does it return upon drinking a second?
That's up to the GM, and the needs of the story.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
If a creature drinks the elixir while under a polymorph effect to assume a form ineligible for the elixir, does the elixir effect take hold upon returning to the creature's base form, or is it wasted?
The elixir affects the creature's true form, but doesn't mess with a polymorphed form. The creature would be the new sex upon the end of the separate polymorph effect.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
If a character's race is normally gendered, but the character is genderless as a result of, for example, a mishap with the girdle of masculinity/femininity, does the elixir have any effect?
That's a GM call, depending on the nature of the situation and the player's desires for the character.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
James Jacobs Creative Director |
James Jacobs Creative Director |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
No need to get hostile.
And what exactly is the intended scope of the elixir, anyway? It's obviously not for mechanical benefit, but it does change an aspect of the game world, which requires adjudication.
Check out the story of Anevia and Irabeth in the 1st installment of Wrath of the Righteous for the inspiration for this item and an in-world example of the item's intended scope.
Thelemic_Noun |
Wish could not remove the "effect". It might be able to replicate the elixer, but it is not an ongoing effect like a baleful polymorph and therefore can't be "removed".
But in this case, replicating the effect is the same as removing it. This particular effect is unusual in this regard.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Thelemic_Noun |
Oh, c'mon, you can't reply to this. You're only encouraging bad forum etiquette. What's the point of flagging for double posts if it just prompts dev answers sooner?
If you believe separating the questions into different posts is double-posting, read the post where I explained my reasons. Not that it's relevant now.
Majuba |
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
If a character's race is normally gendered, but the character is genderless as a result of, for example, a mishap with the girdle of masculinity/femininity, does the elixir have any effect?That also looks like it might be a GM's call. That said, if the effect is an instantaneous one (like the elixer itself) then I'd say that the elixer has no effect on them, as per its clause regarding races with no sexual differentation (a strict reading would say that the character's "race" still has sexual differentation per se, even if that character doesn't, but that's a little too pedantic for me).
If the effect that made the character genderless are an active effect, however (even if a permanent one), I'd say that the elixer does still affect them, though the effect wouldn't show until the effect that made the character sexless was removed.
If a non-active effect made the character genderless (including being born without a gender), the elixir should allow the choice of gender, similar to a race with three or more genders.
As a DM, I would rule that Sexual Dimorphism (different ability scores/abilities for different genders) would not apply, but I'd agree by default it would.
claudekennilol |
claudekennilol wrote:Oh, c'mon, you can't reply to this. You're only encouraging bad forum etiquette. What's the point of flagging for double posts if it just prompts dev answers sooner?If you believe separating the questions into different posts is double-posting, read the post where I explained my reasons. Not that it's relevant now.
You say that like you think this post is even relatively important enough for a FAQ...
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
Thelemic_Noun |
I'm not the judge of what is important and what's not. I read a guideline and followed it, for good or ill. If I missed a different guideline, then I guess I did goof.
Now, I'm not trans, but you had no way of knowing that. These questions could have been extremely important to me, and you could have been deeply offensive. And these questions are very important for some of the people that will read this thread. Don't assume.
claudekennilol |
Now, I'm not trans, but you had no way of knowing that. These questions could have been extremely important to me, and you could have been deeply offensive. And these questions are very important for some of the people that will read this thread. Don't assume.
From the quote, I'm not the one that's assuming. I don't know where you pulled the first half of that statement from. You can't persuade me that this was an important question in the least. But either way, you got your answer, so there's no reason for me fill up more space here.
In the future, just try to post less disruptively, ~15 questions in as many separate posts in the same thread is just not the way to do it, regardless of what you read. If your original questions necessitate the need for a FAQ'd post, then at that point start a new thread with the single question and go from there.
Thelemic_Noun |
Thelemic_Noun wrote:Now, I'm not trans, but you had no way of knowing that. These questions could have been extremely important to me, and you could have been deeply offensive. And these questions are very important for some of the people that will read this thread. Don't assume.From the quote, I'm not the one that's assuming. I don't know where you pulled the first half of that statement from. You can't persuade me that this was an important question in the least. But either way, you got your answer, so there's no reason for me fill up more space here.
In the future, just try to post less disruptively, ~15 questions in as many separate posts in the same thread is just not the way to do it, regardless of what you read. If your original questions necessitate the need for a FAQ'd post, then at that point start a new thread with the single question and go from there.
I guess I did goof. Thank you for the clarification.
OldSkoolRPG |
In the future, just try to post less disruptively, ~15 questions in as many separate posts in the same thread is just not the way to do it, regardless of what you read. If your original questions necessitate the need for a FAQ'd post, then at that point start a new thread with the single question and go from there.
If he had post all 15 questions in separate threads in the main forum I could see that as being disruptive but the way the OP did here isn't disruptive. Anyone looking in the thread who doesn't like it can click right out again no harm no foul. I don't see why you are making such a huge deal out of the way he posted this. It might not be proper forum etiquette but it is not the major issue you are making it.
dragonhunterq |
Still, JJ was a bit of a superstar jumping in and answering all those. That's why you've got to love Paizo man, they're very accessible and involved, though I suspect that he's probably just the first to wake up following the post-GenCon crash :)
I could be wrong, but I get the feeling this item might be a pet one of JJ's (not everything gets this much love :))
graystone |
claudekennilol wrote:I guess I did goof. Thank you for the clarification.Thelemic_Noun wrote:Now, I'm not trans, but you had no way of knowing that. These questions could have been extremely important to me, and you could have been deeply offensive. And these questions are very important for some of the people that will read this thread. Don't assume.From the quote, I'm not the one that's assuming. I don't know where you pulled the first half of that statement from. You can't persuade me that this was an important question in the least. But either way, you got your answer, so there's no reason for me fill up more space here.
In the future, just try to post less disruptively, ~15 questions in as many separate posts in the same thread is just not the way to do it, regardless of what you read. If your original questions necessitate the need for a FAQ'd post, then at that point start a new thread with the single question and go from there.
At the very least, putting them all in the same post increases the chances someone will reply to them. There is a BIG difference between flipping between 15 and 1 post when trying to reply. And even when you do get replies to multiple post, it's easy to miss some questions out of the pile.
Being nice and condensing everything into one place increases the chance other will be nice and reply. :)
OldSkoolRPG: I don't see it as a major issue, but it's not a bad thing to let him know it's frowned on and it's likely to get that "click right out again" response instead of a post a reply response.
OldSkoolRPG |
Ssalarn wrote:Still, JJ was a bit of a superstar jumping in and answering all those. That's why you've got to love Paizo man, they're very accessible and involved, though I suspect that he's probably just the first to wake up following the post-GenCon crash :)I could be wrong, but I get the feeling this item might be a pet one of JJ's (not everything gets this much love :))
Could be, I was surprised he jumped in here and answered all of those questions so quickly lol. Still JJ, and Paizo in general, is really awesome for being so responsive to the players.
graystone |
Ssalarn wrote:Still, JJ was a bit of a superstar jumping in and answering all those. That's why you've got to love Paizo man, they're very accessible and involved, though I suspect that he's probably just the first to wake up following the post-GenCon crash :)I could be wrong, but I get the feeling this item might be a pet one of JJ's (not everything gets this much love :))
LOL I take what I can get! ;)
Maybe he's just taking an easy one before moving on to some on the bigger issues in the book.
claudekennilol |
claudekennilol wrote:If he had post all 15 questions in separate threads in the main forum I could see that as being disruptive but the way the OP did here isn't disruptive. Anyone looking in the thread who doesn't like it can click right out again no harm no foul. I don't see why you are making such a huge deal out of the way he posted this. It might not be proper forum etiquette but it is not the major issue you are making it.
In the future, just try to post less disruptively, ~15 questions in as many separate posts in the same thread is just not the way to do it, regardless of what you read. If your original questions necessitate the need for a FAQ'd post, then at that point start a new thread with the single question and go from there.
I wasn't going to post anymore, but since you're specifically asking me a question (well, no question marks but it still appears questioning to me) I'll answer it. It either is against the rules or it isn't. What's the point of they're being an option to flag posts for double posts (as the first dozen or so posts in this thread clearly are)? This is a rules forum, after all. The only huge deal I made was with James responding to posts that clearly don't align with the expected norm (to posts that are flaggable under the forum rules). I ended (in what I thought was a rather courteous post) with a suggestion on how to do it in the future.
Sure, I didn't enjoy seeing the questions spread across so many different posts, but the biggest issue I had with this thread was James responding to it without pointing out that it shouldn't be done. It could very well be me that's at fault, but it's my understanding that double-posting isn't accepted--my proof of that is the flagging system.
OldSkoolRPG |
I wasn't going to post anymore, but since you're specifically asking me a question (well, no question marks but it still appears questioning to me) I'll answer it. It either is against the rules or it isn't. What's the point of they're being an option to flag posts for double posts (as the first dozen or so posts in this thread clearly are)? This is a rules forum, after all. The only huge deal I made was with James responding to posts that clearly don't align with the expected norm (to posts that are flaggable under the forum rules). I ended (in what I thought was a rather courteous post) with a suggestion on how to do it in the future.
Sure, I didn't enjoy seeing the questions spread across so many different posts, but the biggest issue I had with this thread was James responding to it without pointing out that it shouldn't be done. It could very well be me that's at fault, but it's my understanding that double-posting isn't accepted--my proof of that is the flagging system.
I thought a double post was posting the same exact thing multiple times not making multiple posts with different content. I could be wrong but if that is the case then his initial posts weren't double posts. In any event he has been thoroughly educated on how to better present such posts in the future.
claudekennilol |
I thought a double post was posting the same exact thing multiple times not making multiple posts with different content. I could be wrong but if that is the case then his initial posts weren't double posts.
I suppose it depends on what corner of the internet you come from. I've always been under the impression that a double post is posting back-to-back within a short amount of time.
OldSkoolRPG |
OldSkoolRPG wrote:I thought a double post was posting the same exact thing multiple times not making multiple posts with different content. I could be wrong but if that is the case then his initial posts weren't double posts.I suppose it depends on what corner of the internet you come from. I've always been under the impression that a double post is posting back-to-back within a short amount of time.
Should we FAQ it =D
Just a little humor to liven up a boring Friday afternoon at work lol
KSF |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No need to get hostile.
And what exactly is the intended scope of the elixir, anyway? It's obviously not for mechanical benefit, but it does change an aspect of the game world, which requires adjudication.
To provide players a possible mechanic (and a possible monetary cost) for changing a character's sex, should the character desire to do so. As has been discussed elsewhere, there are other routes in addition to this one.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ssalarn wrote:Still, JJ was a bit of a superstar jumping in and answering all those. That's why you've got to love Paizo man, they're very accessible and involved, though I suspect that he's probably just the first to wake up following the post-GenCon crash :)I could be wrong, but I get the feeling this item might be a pet one of JJ's (not everything gets this much love :))
Nope. I like the item, and the inspiration for it was in part something I came up with for Amber to include in her adventure for Wrath of the Righteous, but it was Wes who designed the elixir.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
KSF |
Ssalarn wrote:Still, JJ was a bit of a superstar jumping in and answering all those. That's why you've got to love Paizo man, they're very accessible and involved, though I suspect that he's probably just the first to wake up following the post-GenCon crash :)I could be wrong, but I get the feeling this item might be a pet one of JJ's (not everything gets this much love :))
Wes came up with it in a forum post at some point. One of the discussions about the girdle, to provide a non-cursed alternative.
Edit: Ninja'd by the dinosaur.
KSF |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now, I'm not trans, but you had no way of knowing that. These questions could have been extremely important to me, and you could have been deeply offensive. And these questions are very important for some of the people that will read this thread. Don't assume.
Speaking only for myself, as an individual trans person, most of the questions you've asked aren't things I've thought about since reading the item description, or questions I was looking to have answered. The elixir seems pretty straightforward, providing the mechanics for one of what are presumably multiple options for trans people in Golarion to transition. (See the descriptions of the tincture and the salve in the comments below Shardra's Meet the Iconics post for two others.)
The only questions I found of interest were those involving "revealing that the creature's form is the result of a magical effect." And I'd think my preferred answer to those questions, and the answer I'd lobby my GM to use, is pretty obvious.
And I guess the question of what, if any, spell could remove the effect is important.
I like the item, and I know how I'd like a character to use it. Otherwise, **shrug**
Just my own perspective.
fretgod99 |
Thelemic_Noun wrote:Now, I'm not trans, but you had no way of knowing that. These questions could have been extremely important to me, and you could have been deeply offensive. And these questions are very important for some of the people that will read this thread. Don't assume.Speaking only for myself, as an individual trans person, most of the questions you've asked aren't things I've thought about since reading the item description, or questions I was looking to have answered. The elixir seems pretty straightforward, providing the mechanics for one of what are presumably multiple options for trans people in Golarion to transition. (See the descriptions of the tincture and the salve in the comments below Shardra's Meet the Iconics post for two others.)
The only questions I found of interest were those involving "revealing that the creature's form is the result of a magical effect." And I'd think my preferred answer to those questions, and the answer I'd lobby my GM to use, is pretty obvious.
And I guess the question of what, if any, spell could remove the effect is important.
I like the item, and I know how I'd like a character to use it. Otherwise, **shrug**
Just my own perspective.
JJ answered those questions upthread. There's no magic to detect after the elixir has taken effect. The new gender is the true form of the creature. And, since there's no lingering magic in place, nothing short of Wish or Miracle (or another Elixir) would be able to reverse the change. It is an instantaneous, permanent magical effect.
KSF |
JJ answered those questions upthread. There's no magic to detect after the elixir has taken effect. The new gender is the true form of the creature. And, since there's no lingering magic in place, nothing short of Wish or Miracle (or another Elixir) would be able to reverse the change. It is an instantaneous, permanent magical effect.
I've already read those, but thank you.
bbangerter |
I don't have any sort of political agenda, puerile sense of humor, desire to troll, or passive-aggressive bigotry regarding the subject.
I think Paizo made a mistake when they said that pregnant characters can't use the elixir, because that opens up the incredibly divisive question of when pregnancy begins, and in a fantasy context where souls exist, that question is a lot harder to answer scientifically. Mature game groups will be able to steer around this issue but it would probably be better to solve the core problem.
Probably just my reading of it but I find these two statements a little bit at odds.
The 'mature' groups I play with, this would never come up to begin with. We'd just go "Okay, that's how it works" and simply move on with no fanfare or anything beyond it. The idea of it devolving into any kind of political or religious discussion would never occur to any of us.
As to the answers, to reiterate, most of these are 'Ask your GM'. As far as I can tell the item is largely a role-playing tool.
Alexander Augunas Contributor |
** spoiler omitted **
Some questions:
Does the character's height and weight change? If so, is it rolled randomly or is the same roll used but with the new base?
The elixir says that the person is the same person and can be easily identified as such. Therefore, I'd say that height and weight do not changed.
Does true seeing reveal the transmuted creature's true form?
No. It is an instantaneous effect. This means the change is permanent and there's nothing to reveal.
If a race is described as always female, but picturing a male version is trivial (such as hags), does the elixir work?
The item says that it has no effect on characters with no sexual differentiation. If you're always female, you have no sexual differentiation.
If a race has different ability modifiers for different genders (as is the case with many far-out, nonhumanoid creatures), do the character's ability scores change?
Yes.
Can a Spellcraft check reveal that the creature's form is the result of a magical effect?
No. It is an instantaneous effect (all effects that cannot be dispelled are) and therefore leaves no lingering aura.
Can an analyze dweomer or greater arcane sight spell reveal that a creature's form is the result of a magical effect?
No. See above.
If a character is sterile before drinking the elixir, are they sterile afterwards?
On the same note, if a woman is sterile due to menopause, does drinking the elixir remove the sterility?
Use whatever works best for the story you want to tell. Paizo tends to shy away from going into details such as this.
Can plant creatures, undead, outsiders, and/or dragons use the elixir?
Yes, if they have discernable sexual dimorphism. Note that it doesn't mean that WE as humans need to be able to tell them apart. So long as there is a difference, it works.
If a character is suffering from an effect that can only target creatures of one gender (such as certain types of venereal disease, or familial curses such as "the firstborn sons of House Blahblah shall all die before their sixteenth winter"), does drinking the elixir remove the effect?
And if the effect is removed, does it return upon drinking a second?
Again, use whatever works best for the story you want to tell.
Alexander Augunas Contributor |
Thelemic_Noun wrote:If, for some bizarre reason, the race has gender specific modifiers I imagine those change as well. Though frankly, I've never seen a race with such modifiers.If a race has different ability modifiers for different genders (as is the case with many far-out, nonhumanoid creatures), do the character's ability scores change?
Lashaunta (from Inner Sea Bestiary) do.
Ckorik |
I just wanted to chime in and say (after finding the thread from the RSS of JJ's posts lol) reading the OP I (from past experience) thought this was going to be a troll thread - I am 100% surprised and grateful for not only the questions - but the answers - several of them were non-obvious and in fact generated some interesting adventure plot hooks.
So thanks to the OP and JJ for the answers.
Diekssus |
I like the item, and I know how I'd like a character to use it. Otherwise, **shrug**
Just my own perspective.
I like the fact I can totally use it to wreck societies that have gender importance, I dislike people can use it on me without any form of save or consent. Although I suppose gender identity is not much of an issue in Golarion.
Added question:
If creatures like hags that normally only have one gender, can change still, Why don't they?
The same with the bee-people. They need to gather up males from others races, why would they, when a relatively cheap elixir would solve everything. same thing with hags.
Deadmanwalking |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like the fact I can totally use it to wreck societies that have gender importance, I dislike people can use it on me without any form of save or consent.
I dunno, that seems really unlikely to come up. Who spends over 2k gp just to mess with someone in a way that will only cost them that much to undo? Plus pissing them off, of course.
Although I suppose gender identity is not much of an issue in Golarion.
Huh? Why would you suppose this?
Added question:
If creatures like hags that normally only have one gender, can change still, Why don't they?
The same with the bee-people. They need to gather up males from others races, why would they, when a relatively cheap elixir would solve everything. same thing with hags.
Why spend a couple of thousand GP when you can have it for free?
Plus, would you willingly swap gender permanently just for practical purposes?
Ipslore the Red |
relatively cheap
It costs, what, 2,500 gold? For perspective: One gold is a day's wages for the average human commoner, assuming Skill Focus (Profession), +2 Wis from floating bonus, and taking 10 on a weekly check for Profession. Let's equate that to a 9-5 minimum wage job today. 9 dollars per hour for 8 hours gives us 72 dollars a day. The conversion rate would then be 1 gp : 72 USD. The elixir would then cost 180,000 dollars in today's money.
It's cheap for adventurers and national governments, both of whom are fantastically rich by normal standards and still can't afford to drink these like water. Let's say a 20th level PC has the feat to craft this half price and only has, say, 75% of his ~880k WBL tied up in gear. That leaves 220k gp free, enough to craft 176 elixirs. A demigod's wealth is barely enough to switch sexes every day for a bit more than half a year or maybe start a small nation's breeding program once.
tl;dr: For the typical PC they're cheap if they're one-off, in the big picture they're too expensive for widespread usage without devoting everything to them.
Aioran |
Thelemic_Noun wrote:If, for some bizarre reason, the race has gender specific modifiers I imagine those change as well. Though frankly, I've never seen a race with such modifiers.If a race has different ability modifiers for different genders (as is the case with many far-out, nonhumanoid creatures), do the character's ability scores change?
At least one of the other planets has a race with gender dimorphic stats.
EDIT: Oh, it was the Lashunta, whoops. Guess I pay more attention to how many posts are left in the thread.
thaX |
Regarding height and weight. I would look at the chart and adjust according to what it would be if rolled normally.
To wit, if the former girl weighed 95 lbs, likely the now boy would be 125 lbs. (A guess, I don't have the chart in front of me) This would use the beginning weight, subtract the starting weight (before the xdx addition) and add the difference to the new starting weight.
I imagine that the clothes, if the character is wearing them when the potion is imbibed, would be loose or tight depending on what gender the character has become.
This is what I would do for my own character.
I wonder if this would work with one effected by the girdle?
I keep thinking that getting another girdle was ruled out as a means to return to one's original gender.