refining and crafting: ranks and skill


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

Simple question:

looking in the GW "sample crafting and refining" guide, i see a lot of seemingly basic recipes that require (IMO) disproportionally high refining ranks to make.

example1: footpad's leathers. This appears to be the "starter rogue armor" given at leatherworker rank 2 , but requires a weaver rank 7 padding. For comparison the starter fighter armor (hide and steel banded) only requires rank 3 components. Reaching weaver level 7 is a significant xp cost, and players at these levels have likely outgrown rank 2 armors...

example2: introductory trophy charm. This appears to be the "starter fighter feature item" given at jeweler rank 1, but requires smelter rank 6 silver bars.

Question: are item ranks for refining equal to the minimum skill level for making them, or can you make them at lower skill (given the recipe) just using correspondingly longer time?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

You have to have either that level of skill or that many ranks in the feat. Right now the two are the same thing, but with enchanting and racial bonuses around the corner, soon we will be able to tell which.

Goblinworks Game Designer

Keep in mind that everyone attempting to craft soup-to-nuts right now is an aberration caused by lack of a market and everyone clustered at the low end of the level scale. We'll look back at it once the server economy is in full swing to see if it's still resulting in weird behavior.

But, in general, there was no attempt to match refining and crafting recipes together at the same ranks so someone leveling up both got synergy out of it. Instead, they're meant to be done be completely different players. Someone trying to make leather armor should ultimately check the market for the padding. Meanwhile, a weaver who got to rank 7 is very excited, because now he can make padding, which is an in-demand item.

Goblin Squad Member

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There are a couple of problems with that mismatch, though, beyond just "crafting isn't a one-person job."

One of them is the cold start. Rogues will not get any armor until almost a week into the game. That problem goes away, but it's going to be a painful week.

Another is economic, and that isn't going away. Rank 2 armor is made by rank 2 leatherworkers who have approximately zero money, and sold to 1st and 2nd level characters who have approximately zero money. A refiner making tier 7 components is going to expect a little more reward for his effort than that. So either basic leather armor will be more expensive than anyone who would want to wear it can afford to pay, or, weavers who cannot get what they think is a decent price for their paddings will simply make something else to sell to players with money.

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak, there are still drops in game which will help push the player market.

I think for the most part people will be shying away from making anything without a +1 or higher bonus.

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:
Rogues will not get any armor until almost a week into the game.

I haven't the time to quote-dig right now, but I thought Ryan'd told us that vendors in the NPC towns would have basic--only basic--gear for us.

Goblin Squad Member

Hmmm.

Goblin Squad Member

I think there will be vendors that sell SOME T1 crafting materials.

Goblin Squad Member

what Guurzak said about cold start,
not just for adventurers, but for crafters and refiners.

The argument of 'different players should do it' is valid for justifying high xp cost to progress in each craft/trade, but not for the mismatching levels.

Goblin Squad Member

I am hoping it is not your "run of the mill" crafting system. And it appears it is not. I am remaining hopeful all levels of raw and refined materials remain in demand so nothing becomes truly obsolete.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

...We'll look back at it once the server economy is in full swing to see if it's still resulting in weird behavior.

I suppose this is good enough for now, seeing as you may have other stuff too on the to-do list.

After a weeks the cold start problems should be over, so the issue may more or less resolve itself.

Goblin Squad Member

It exites me that you really need to pick a dedicated path at the exclusion of other paths(at least temporary), in order to become really proficient in that path in a reasonable timeframe(months). Maybe some people could reach SWG-levels of "Crafter-fame" again in PFO. Including having to hoof it all the way to the settlement where he sells his wares. But now with more danger!

I realize that in SWG the complexity (with the different quality resources) was deeper, where crafters could really make something special(+0.15 something) if they were dedicated, so this may not be true after all. But I still like to think that you will not be able to find a Leatherworker that can make the best Tier 3 Jerkins there are, around every corner.

It also exites me that choosing such a path is not a matter of poopsocking it to Master-crafter in a week, but requires an investment in both time (XP being on a monthly limit) and money. For a casual chum like me who can't put in 12 hours a day, I feel like I can make chance now of running with the big boys (crafters). :)

Off course it needs a lot more then just XP and money, you will need your Settlement buddies and the rest of the world to provide all the rest.

Goblin Squad Member

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If we are starting out with only a stick to defend ourselves with then I highly recommend that the developer should expend the time to study the materials required to make the lowest tier of every item that will be needed, because there are some fairly high level requirements for the lowest level iconography recipes, the most simple armors, and the most basic of weapons, not to mention the required materials for spellcraft.

I really don't think a laissez-faire approach to crafting is going to serve GW very well at all. Please consider this point and give the infrastructure thought, because if we are starting 'cold' we're going to have to be able to make stuff.

Goblin Squad Member

Tyncale wrote:
It exites me that you really need to pick a dedicated path at the exclusion of other paths(at least temporary), in order to become really proficient in that path in a reasonable timeframe(months).

It can be exciting, but in order to get to that point, to keep players in the game long enough to have that tier 7 component, then the players are going to have to be able to make things in the meantime.

It is a very long ways to T7 padding when everyone has no more than a stick to fight omega wolves and bandits.

Goblin Squad Member

I had a suit of footpad's leathers, the exact item under discussion, drop into my inventory within a few minutes of striking out from the starter town last night. So it looks like monsters are dropping the very basic items needed to kickstart the economy, at least for now.

Goblin Squad Member

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I haven't yet had a sepia crystal +0 drop. No copper ore whatsoever and I need a copper bar to craft lowest level focus. If crafters cannot make anything they cannot progress to anything. Unless the early crafting ecosystem is carefully built we will never see tier 7 anything. We have to be able to get there before we can be there. Someone was able to craft a +3 sword, but what it takes to make a sword is quite different from a staff or a wand or a focus or holy symbol.

If we cannot make things we cannot gain the achievements needed to progress.

Goblin Squad Member

How will the player pack affect this? I suspect some will have more than a stick.

Goblin Squad Member

That's a good point. Everybody who bought into the kickstarter should be starting with a new player pack (and an alliance pack?) so there shouldn't be any naked-with-a-club stuff going on for the most part.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:

I haven't yet had a sepia crystal +0 drop. No copper ore whatsoever and I need a copper bar to craft lowest level focus. If crafters cannot make anything they cannot progress to anything. Unless the early crafting ecosystem is carefully built we will never see tier 7 anything. We have to be able to get there before we can be there. Someone was able to craft a +3 sword, but what it takes to make a sword is quite different from a staff or a wand or a focus or holy symbol.

If we cannot make things we cannot gain the achievements needed to progress.

Even after giving a bunch of raw components to Cheatle, I have a large volume gathered from various places. (I've focused almost exclusively on sneaking around gathering in stealth) Since refining and crafting are not my forte's, I'm willing to give items away if it will help test the crafting process. I don't recall any sepia crystals, but have copper and coal.

I'll be online tonight, either before or after ATWaBW* if you want to try. I also managed to conduct inter-character trades without leaving Sotterhill last night. I think patience is the key.

* Adventure Time without any Bonnys Whatsoever, tonight at 9:00pm EDT in the Sotterhill Market

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
I think patience is the key.

Patience?! Who has time for that? I want a Pocket Siege Weapon and I want it now!

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
I've focused almost exclusively on sneaking around gathering in stealth

There should be some stealth achievements shouldn't there?

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
I've focused almost exclusively on sneaking around gathering in stealth
There should be some stealth achievements shouldn't there?

To be honest, I haven't paid any attention to my achievements. I couldn't even tell you what levels the character have in any roles, except that I had to go looking for a couple of things last night because I couldn't pick up a skill I wanted unless I hit Cleric one, and that once I did so, a few more clicks took me to Cleric 4.

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:
That's a good point. Everybody who bought into the kickstarter should be starting with a new player pack (and an alliance pack?) so there shouldn't be any naked-with-a-club stuff going on for the most part.

Assuming they've fixed (as in established the parameters of) and coded the packs....

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