Missed opportunity with the Kata Monk... Why not Charisma-based?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Maybe paizo was fearing too many level-dips, but I think this archetype would have rocked with all wis-abilities based instead on Charisma. Any thoughts?

PS In my game they will be based on Cha.


That was the first thing that came to my mind too. It's really weird and not really worth it as is, in my opinion.


Same. I thought, "Oh wow, a great way to make Monk even more MAD!" I've been watching a lot of kung-fu movies lately, so I'm enjoying all the new toys from ACG.

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Likely because they didn't want double Cha to Panache (once it gets Ki), but I think that's avoidable if at first you can only use Cha to Panache, then when you get the Ki Pool it becomes +half level and can activate ki stuff as well.

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Petty Alchemy wrote:
Likely because they didn't want double Cha to Panache (once it gets Ki), but I think that's avoidable if at first you can only use Cha to Panache, then when you get the Ki Pool it becomes +half level and can activate ki stuff as well.

You can already do that, and even without the alignment restrictions.

Take one level of swashbuckler and one level of gunslinger (mysterious stranger).

Boom. Double Charisma to panache/grit.


Triple if you add a level in sleuth investigator.

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Can you spend Grit as Panache?


From page 102 of ACG:

"Grit, Luck, and Panache
Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit or panache points, and vice versa. A luck user does not count as a grit or panache user to satisfy feat prerequisites."

So yeah, you can spend Grit as Panache or Luck. It even specifically mentions double charisma, so triple charisma is just around the corner.

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Interesting! I wonder why they give it different names if it's a normally interchangeable currency.


Most likely because of the mental imagery created when you read the word. Gunslinger and "panache" seem at odds, as does "gritty" swashbucklers.

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Petty Alchemy wrote:
Interesting! I wonder why they give it different names if it's a normally interchangeable currency.

Flavor, pure and simple. They wanted to expand the Grit mechanic, but the Swashbuckler doesn't really fit "grit". The luck thing on the other hand, I'm not sure about, but I'm guessing it was written separately and tied up with Grit and Panache after the fact.


Ssalarn wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
Interesting! I wonder why they give it different names if it's a normally interchangeable currency.
Flavor, pure and simple. They wanted to expand the Grit mechanic, but the Swashbuckler doesn't really fit "grit". The luck thing on the other hand, I'm not sure about, but I'm guessing it was written separately and tied up with Grit and Panache after the fact.

Yeah, Luck follows that old SKR post about ducks and whatever, where it seems like they wanted the Sleuth to have the same sort of action pool as the Gunslinger and Swashbuckler but, since neither grit nor panache fit, they just renamed the mechanic to flavor it up. It may very well have been a panache pool in early development but changed later to be more thematic.

Sleuths are tight...


I may be missing something, but when I look at the PFSRD it says that Kata Master (I assume that's what you're talking about) already does use Cha for his abilites.


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Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
I may be missing something, but when I look at the PFSRD it says that Kata Master (I assume that's what you're talking about) already does use Cha for his abilites.

It's not so much that he uses charisma for his panache abilities (which is great!) but rather that he still uses Wisdom for all the traditional monk abilities. It adds Charisma to the list of stats needed to the monk, but doesn't do anything to alleviate the MAD aspects of the monk - he now needs strength, dexterity, constitution, wisdom AND charisma.

If the Kata Master gave Charisma to AC instead of Wisdom to AC, a ki pool based off of charisma and a special note that Stunning Fist/Punishing Kick etc would base their DC on charisma instead of wisdom so on it would be more functional and make more of a break-away from the original monk.


Ssalarn wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
Interesting! I wonder why they give it different names if it's a normally interchangeable currency.
Flavor, pure and simple. They wanted to expand the Grit mechanic, but the Swashbuckler doesn't really fit "grit". The luck thing on the other hand, I'm not sure about, but I'm guessing it was written separately and tied up with Grit and Panache after the fact.

I'd say partially that, and partially to note that Luck, unlike Grit and Panache, does not count as the others for purposes of qualifying for Feats.


My modest proposal for Kata Master modification

Alignment: Unlike other monks, a kata master can be of any alignment. At 10th level, a chaotic kata master's unarmed attacks are treated as chaotic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. If the kata master is neutral, he can chose between chaotic or lawful but cannot change afterwards.

Class Skills: A Kata Master removes Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Religion) from his class skills, and adds Bluff.

Banter (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, A Kata Master adds his Charisma bonus (if any) as a Dodge bonus to his AC and his CMD. In addition, he gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load. Also, a Kata Master uses his Charisma instead of his Wisdom for any Monk class feature or feat.

(NOTE: since it is not based on insight but on force of personality, I decided on adding it as a dodge bonus. Comes a bit weaker but I think it better represents the archetype)

Menacing Swordplay (Ex): As normal, but gained at 4th level and replacing slowfall instead of still mind, for the sole reason of stacking with Drunken Master.

Ki Pool (Su): As normal, but a kata master adds his Charisma modifier instead of his Wisdom to his Ki pool. This ability modifies Ki pool.

For further modification, maybe let the monk add performance feats to his lists of bonus feats, and changing Maneuver training to work also for Performance checks (which basically just adds a +1 at certain levels). The menacing swordplay was changed because a Drunken Kata master is just a combination begging to happen.

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