Swashbuckler mobility issues


Homebrew and House Rules


I have been reading a lot of complaints about swashbuckler recently, seems to be the "subject of the day". One complaint that really struck me was someone pointing out that swashbuckler, a "mobile melee" class, has no real mobility options; the best option still being the "stand still and full attack" route.

This was a rather disappointing conclusion to come to... but the more I thought about it, the more I agreed.

This got me to thinking of solutions as listed:

1. As an addition to the nimble class feature. Swashbuckler may choose a terrain from the favored terrain list. While in this terrain a swashbuckler may move or charge at full speed through difficult terrain or obstacles without difficulty, impairment or taking any damage from terrain. This does not apply to alternative movement types like fly, climb, burrow, or swim (possible feat to add these to class feature). The swashbuckler chooses an additional terrain from the favored terrain list every level her dodge bonus from the nimble class feature increases.

This would allow a swashbuckler to rely heavily on their mobility in even the most hectic of environments. Making a spring attack and/or pounce build work reliably.

2. Pinpoint Flurry and pinpoint charge - similar in theory to the new pummeling style.

Pinpoint Flurry - As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating thrust. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your
highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.

Pinpoint Charge - When using Pinpoint Flurry, you can charge and make a Pinpoint Flurry attack at the end of your charge as part of the charge action.

More to come probably, but this seems like a good start. Any input would be appreciated. Thank you.


3. Springing Pinpoint Flurry - You can use pinpoint flurry in place of a single melee attack during a spring attack.

I think this works better with swashbuckler than the charge, and it is essentially the same idea.

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Why not let him charge through his allies? A little less game breaking than letting him charge through difficult terrain or a pseudo-pounce.


Dotting to read later.


Panache point for move as a swift action before a full attack?

That seems like the easy solution.


Cyrad wrote:


Why not let him charge through his allies? A little less game breaking than letting him charge through difficult terrain or a pseudo-pounce.

I personally am kind of leaning away from the pseudo-pounce, I like the beefed up spring attack more. I like the feel of it more. As for the difficult terrain thing I like your input on that. It was feeling kinda powerful for a "free" class feature, and I like the idea of being able to charge through allies. It would allow for the swashbuckler to hide in the back till the most opportune time to strike.

Excaliburproxy wrote:


Panache point for move as a swift action before a full attack?

That seems like the easy solution.

I was trying to avoid swift actions, since the swashbuckler swift action slot is already way too full as is. With just the parry ability and the saving throw ability, the swashbuckler already has too many things to spend their swift actions on; and that's not counting the several other things they have that take swift action slots.

It is a magnificently simple and elegant way to create a mobile melee PC, but I don't know if it would work into the swashbuckler class well.


I think would add panache point costs to pinpoint charge / springing pinpoint flurry. And possibly keep altered Nimble class feature as stated but add a panache point cost to it.

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If you want more mobility, why not give the swashbuckler more things to do with the Acrobatics skill? I honestly feel like this skill is under-appreciated. Provided every combat doesn't take place in an empty room, someone skilled in Acrobatics can do a lot of fun things. This would also tie well with derring-do.

Scarab Sages

Cyrad wrote:
Why not let him charge through his allies? A little less game breaking than letting him charge through difficult terrain or a pseudo-pounce.

Ignoring difficult terrain is trivial: Featherstep Slippers cost 2k, affordable by even low level characters. Dragon Style allows charging through difficult terrain/allies with a 1 feat investment.

The pseudo-pounce is something already given to the brawler and monk via Pummeling Charge.

(A MOM's dip brawler can easily manage a pseudo-charge through difficult terrain at 3rd level, and already wants Dragon Ferocity for 1.5x strength on unarmed attacks.)

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Artanthos wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Why not let him charge through his allies? A little less game breaking than letting him charge through difficult terrain or a pseudo-pounce.
Ignoring difficult terrain is trivial: Featherstep Slippers cost 2k, affordable by even low level characters.

That's true, though having those presents an opportunity cost of other good boot slots.

Shadow Lodge

Pinpoint flurry is very, very powerful, should cost 2, maybe 3 panache to use.
As you get a panache back with a crit and this thing greatly increases your chances of getting a crit in any round.
Assuming a 18-20 weapon and at least 5th level for improved crit on gives the following chances for a crit threat for any given number of attacks:
1:30%
2:51%
3:65.7%
4:75.99%
You should probably use same mechanics for deadshot from the gunslinger for confirming the crit which is based off the threatening attack with a -5 penalty on the confirmation rather than using the full bab bonus to confirm the crit.

Also bare in mind the deadshot deed only adds the weapon die, not the static modifiers, meaning that for a 16th level swashbuckler the already decent rapier can be a 15-20 x8 weapon with a full attack, charge or spring attack.
So not only get the biggest crit you've ever seen, but you're getting more often than not, and probably one shoting the enemy and getting a second panache back.

I like the idea of mobility, but giving the swashbuckler a superior version of pounce isn't the way to go about it.

I would suggest the following deed:
Dash
As a swift action the Swashbuckler can spend 1 panache to move up to half her move speed. Performing an acrobatics check to avoid an attack of opportunity does not reduce the Swashbuckler's movement any further.


Excaliburproxy wrote:

Panache point for move as a swift action before a full attack?

That seems like the easy solution.

Skerek wrote:

I would suggest the following deed:

Dash
As a swift action the Swashbuckler can spend 1 panache to move up to half her move speed. Performing an acrobatics check to avoid an attack of opportunity does not reduce the Swashbuckler's movement any further.

Ok I thought about it some more and I'm starting to think this might work, for some reason I was thinking an immediate action was needed to parry. I like this; it gives the swashbuckler a way into combat where she can either dash in and unload on the baddy with a full attack, or Dash in hit 'em once and move out. This specific design would allow for a type of spring attack that was specific to swashbuckler that would allow for vital strike and other special standard action attacks; while not being so feat intensive.

Sorry for not seeing your brilliance earlier Excaliburproxy. And I will probably run with Skerek's version verbatim.

Thanks guys


I still like the idea of increasing a swashbucklers mobility by minimizing the effects of difficult terrain though. I might get rid of the Charging and obstacles aspects, but a swashbuckler being so light on her feet that uneven terrain doesn't faze her seems like nice fluff to me.

in addition to the nimble class feature: Swashbuckler may choose a terrain from the favored terrain list. While in this terrain a swashbuckler may move at full speed through difficult terrain without difficulty, impairment or taking any damage from terrain. This does not apply to alternative movement types like fly, climb, burrow, or swim (possible feats to add this to class feature). The swashbuckler chooses an additional terrain from the favored terrain list every level her dodge bonus from the nimble class feature increases.


Maybe someone could play a swashbuckler for several levels before trying to fix it?


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Maybe someone could play a swashbuckler for several levels before trying to fix it?

People have been playing them for several months, the final class is not significantly different from the playtest.

And I'm getting tired of the implication that people can't read words and draw conclusions, and only anecdotes matter.


I have no experience playing this class. Has anyone in this thread play tested a swashbuckler? Has anyone played one for more than a session or two? Actual playtest is better that theory based on numbers. This is not a computer game. It is a hobby with people who interact with one another as people. Theory and RP each their strength and weaknesses. It is important to understand that there are differences between each.

Ya know, the class might have been innovative in the wrong areas, and have not addresses the issues it claimed to.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Maybe someone could play a swashbuckler for several levels before trying to fix it?

I am currently running an emerald spire AP with a level 5 swashbuckler in the group. He seems content with the class. It is only a little below the group in damage output and resiliency, but the player in question is more of a "character player" than a "mechanics player".

This thread was started because I, and apparently at least a couple other people, noticed that the class had very few things that actually increased its mobility. It seemed that almost all the bonuses it got were simply to make up for the fact that it is fighting with a single 1 handed weapon.

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I think you're headed in the right direction, and I agree that giving a form of pseudo-pounce probably isn't the best direction to go in. I'm not a big fan of "mobile" meaning "able to full attack on a charge," since charging doesn't seem like a particularly swashbuckler-y thing to do. Not that it doesn't have its place, but I think it's kind of strange that sometimes talking about mobility only means finding ways to deliver the most damage while moving.

Anyway, without completely revamping the way that turn-based melee combat works, I think this is a good start. And since so much of this relies on combat/mobility feats, what would you think of additionally allowing the Nimble class feature to count as Dodge for feat prerequisites? It makes the Spring Attack chain more accessible.

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Ya know, there's many ways to define "mobility" and many ways for a class to be mobile. Before any changes are considered, I think one should figure out how you want the class to be more mobile and how other classes try to solve this issue. Honestly, the class is more mobile than most because it rewards a Dexterity build and can give themselves major buffs to Acrobatics to skirt around the battlefield and avoid attacks of opportunity. If I were to boost the class's mobility, I'd work with those strengths. It would also give the class more out-of-combat utility.


mechaPoet wrote:
STUFF... And since so much of this relies on combat/mobility feats, what would you think of additionally allowing the Nimble class feature to count as Dodge for feat prerequisites? It makes the Spring Attack chain more accessible.

I was initially thinking the same thing. But I didn't want to scare people off with piling too much on the nimble class feature (I really do not want to get rid of the difficult terrain thing). Personally I think the nimble class feature should be the linchpin class feature, giving mobility, build options, and survivability. Not the parry/riposte that seems to be all anybody cares about atm.

Parry/Riposte implies that the character is going to want be in the fray of things, which is the last place I would think a lightly armored acro-fighter would want to be IMO; No matter how good he/she may be with a sword.


Cyrad wrote:
Ya know, there's many ways to define "mobility" and many ways for a class to be mobile. Before any changes are considered, I think one should figure out how you want the class to be more mobile and how other classes try to solve this issue. Honestly, the class is more mobile than most because it rewards a Dexterity build and can give themselves major buffs to Acrobatics to skirt around the battlefield and avoid attacks of opportunity. If I were to boost the class's mobility, I'd work with those strengths. It would also give the class more out-of-combat utility.

I would love to delve further into how to make better use of acrobatics... but I have not been able to come up with anything that seemed to make any kind of difference, in or out of combat.

Well one comes to mind... but it hasn't been polished

Deed - Fancy Footwork:
"insert fluff"
pay 1 panache point and roll an acrobatics check against your opponents CMD. If the acrobatic check beats the opposing CMD the swashbuckler is considered to occupy 2 spaces adjacent to the opponent for flanking purposes, including the space the swashbuckler is actually occupying. For every 5 the acrobatics check beats the opponents CMD the swashbuckler may choose an additional space. This effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn.

This would essentially allow a swashbuckler to flank with itself, and support teammates by "flanking" from key positions.

as I said, not polished.

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CHEEPENBULKY wrote:
I would love to delve further into how to make better use of acrobatics... but I have not been able to come up with anything that seemed to make any kind of difference, in or out of combat.

Run across walls. Slide down stairs. 5-foot step up or down stairs. Move unhampered by obstacles (not the same as difficult terrain). Jump off walls. Just to name a few.


Isn't part of the difficulty that the iconic image of the swashbuckler is mobile because their opponents are mobile? Can you really have only one "swashbuckler" in an engagement?

Pedantic, but I feel like it had to be said.

Just to show I'm not totally threadcrapping let me try and brainstorm some ideas:

An ability that lets the swashbuckler move and attack one opponent along the movement for each attack they'd get full-attacking.

An ability that lets them take more than one turn per movement. (I remember "only one turn" was a rule in 3.5, maybe it isn't in Pathfinder.)

A "woodland stride" ability except it applies to areas cluttered with man-made debris.


I'm trying to get some input to fix the class here. Any advice is welcome.


SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

STUFF

A "woodland stride" ability except it applies to areas cluttered with man-made debris.

That is pretty much exactly what I proposed with my Nimble class feature alteration

Quote:

in addition to the nimble class feature: Swashbuckler may choose a terrain from the favored terrain list. While in this terrain a swashbuckler may move at full speed through difficult terrain without difficulty, impairment or taking any damage from terrain. This does not apply to alternative movement types like fly, climb, burrow, or swim (possible feats to add this to class feature). The swashbuckler chooses an additional terrain from the favored terrain list every level her dodge bonus from the nimble class feature increases.

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