Undersized Mount and Cavalier / Paladin AC?


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can a human cavalier or paladin with the Undersized Mount select a medium-sized mount as animal companion?

On the one hand, that seems to be what the feat is intended to do;

Undersized Mount feat, ACG wrote:


Undersized Mount (Combat)
You've learned techniques that allow you to ride beasts of
smaller sizes than normal.

Prerequisite: Ride 1 rank.
Benefit: You can ride creatures of your size category, although encumbrance or other factors might limit how you can use this ability.
Normal: Typically a mount suited for you is at least one size category larger than you.

On the other hand, both of those classes name specific creatures that you can pick as mount;

Paladin Divine Bond, CRB wrote:
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
Cavalier Mount, APG wrote:
Mount (Ex): A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the cavalier's level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.

Am I reading too much in the paladin/cavalier abilities? Are they just naming examples of suitable mounts, or does Undersized Mount basically not work for them?

I'm not sure if I'm just being obtuse or if this deserves an FAQ; in that case the opening paragraph of my post should be a good concise question.


A suitable mount is described as being 1 sized larger than the rider.

This feat allows a human cavalier or Paladin to use a medium-sized pony. Or a human Druid to use his medium-sized wolf companion (then retrain when the wolf becomes large, but that's another issue.)

what is your confusion?

Sovereign Court

A medium cavalier with the feat is allowed to ride a pony, but is he also allowed to select the pony as AC? Because the class ability lists only specific mounts. And not just because those are the only mountable animals; a druid can ride a roc, ankylosaurus, bear or tiger without problems.


This is an "up to the DM" issue. For PFS or anyone who wants to follows the rules as written, it is an exhaustive list which only a DM can modify. Even includes the line "The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.". Undersized mount still works for: anyone who buys an animal to ride, anything that modifies a cavalier's choice list to "a suitable mount", and generally anyone who doesn't have to pick a mount and instead gets to pick an animal and might choose to ride it.


I agree it's probably under GM purview. Strictly speaking, I think no, your cavalier or paladin can't choose a medium size animal companion because there is a restricted list they can choose from. However, as the list states at the end the GM can choose to allow others.

Sczarni

Although, I see no problem with a small-sized Paladin or Cavalier being able to ride their small-sized Boar or Dog with this feat.

When your mount would advance to Medium at level 4, just keep it Small and grab the +2 to Dex/Con.

Sczarni

Ooo! And with this feat, your medium-sized PC could safely drink a potion of Enlarge Person while riding their large-sized mount.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm not sure of the purpose of this feat.

Yes, technically this allows a medium sized Human to ride a medium size wolf. In practise however, I think the only direction a medium size wolf will be able to go is splat down on the ground, when you figure in the load that the medium sized human And his armor, and gear, is going to add to the animal.

A Wolf's maximum heavy load is 225 lbs. that's the limit of it's HEAVY encumbrance.

Sczarni

I'm sure when someone crunches the numbers, a use will be found.

Some medium-sized Animal Companions are quite strong. Especially Dinosaurs. A Half-Orc Cavalier (or Paladin) with the Beastmaster feat can add some interesting medium-sized options to the list.

Sovereign Court

The encumbrance is a real problem, that's certainly true. Although you can work on that with muleback cords and suchlike.


A lv 4 bear is medium with a str of 20. Max heavy load of 400.


LazarX wrote:

I'm not sure of the purpose of this feat.

Yes, technically this allows a medium sized Human to ride a medium size wolf. In practise however, I think the only direction a medium size wolf will be able to go is splat down on the ground, when you figure in the load that the medium sized human And his armor, and gear, is going to add to the animal.

A Wolf's maximum heavy load is 225 lbs. that's the limit of it's HEAVY encumbrance.

this is why a hunter/druid/ranger that takes this feat should also take anthual and a muleback cord when they can afford it.


LazarX wrote:

I'm not sure of the purpose of this feat.

Yes, technically this allows a medium sized Human to ride a medium size wolf. In practise however, I think the only direction a medium size wolf will be able to go is splat down on the ground, when you figure in the load that the medium sized human And his armor, and gear, is going to add to the animal.

A Wolf's maximum heavy load is 225 lbs. that's the limit of it's HEAVY encumbrance.

I'm not sure what the purpose of the feat is either. AFAIK there was never any size limit to mounts in the first place other then the class features that listed specific creatures.


Rikkan wrote:
LazarX wrote:

I'm not sure of the purpose of this feat.

Yes, technically this allows a medium sized Human to ride a medium size wolf. In practise however, I think the only direction a medium size wolf will be able to go is splat down on the ground, when you figure in the load that the medium sized human And his armor, and gear, is going to add to the animal.

A Wolf's maximum heavy load is 225 lbs. that's the limit of it's HEAVY encumbrance.

I'm not sure what the purpose of the feat is either. AFAIK there was never any size limit to mounts in the first place other then the class features that listed specific creatures.

There was never a written rule, but in effect if you had the mount class feature you had to select a mount you could ride. Until this feat, it meant a creature one size category larger than you.


Ah, so the feat was created to address an unwritten rule?

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:
Ooo! And with this feat, your medium-sized PC could safely drink a potion of Enlarge Person while riding their large-sized mount.

I wouldn't want to be in that saddle...

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

By pure Raw this feat does absolutely nothing, since the rule that you have to ride a mount bigger than you is unwritten

Its almost certain the intention of the feat is to let classes with the mount feature have a same sized mount, so you dont have a class feature as a liability on a dungeon.

This is almost the same as Prone Shooter feat which in its initial state addressed a penalty that didnt exist.


No, I'm pretty sure the creation of this feat was because the general rule (referenced in places) is that you need your mount to be at least one size larger than you. Like in the eidolon. "An eidolon is properly skilled and formed to serve as a combat-trained mount. The eidolon must be at least one size category larger than its rider." So this was created so now you could ride things the same size as you.


Nothing in the rules stopped you from riding a "non-suitable" mount, nor gave any penalties. All the Mount class features said what animals they can pick from. So while it alluded to needing one one size larger, nothing was stopping you from doing the same size, or smaller even, Except for Encumbrance.

The question still stands, what happens if you try to ride a same sized without the feat? Does it fall into the same category as wielding larger weapons? that it just can't be done.

Sovereign Court

The rules didn't exactly stop you before, it was more like they looked menacingly at you. And told you that you wouldn't be getting any inappropriate ACs. (Well, apart from some really weird language on the beastrider.)

The problem is that Undersized Mount changed which mounts would be unsuitable, but those classes have the classic choices hard-coded in.

I would think that the intent was to free up medium mounts for cavaliers and such, but the language of the feat doesn't quite get there yet.

Shadow Lodge

The rule is not written in pathfinder, its generally accepted since it has been inherited from 3.5 ruling, however is not unreasonable to ask your players to have a mount bigger than you. But even so the feat does not address a pathfinder existing rule, its not on , in any case it may be considered as a rule reference, best case escenario(¿?).

I dont think this feat should stay this way, as this state it only helps druids and classes with AC but not with characters with Mount class feature, so WTF paizo WTF!


LazarX wrote:

I'm not sure of the purpose of this feat.

Yes, technically this allows a medium sized Human to ride a medium size wolf. In practise however, I think the only direction a medium size wolf will be able to go is splat down on the ground, when you figure in the load that the medium sized human And his armor, and gear, is going to add to the animal.

A Wolf's maximum heavy load is 225 lbs. that's the limit of it's HEAVY encumbrance.

A basic starting wolf's heavy load is 300 lbs. 150 lbs for 13 str doubled for being a quadruped.


thorin001 wrote:
LazarX wrote:

I'm not sure of the purpose of this feat.

Yes, technically this allows a medium sized Human to ride a medium size wolf. In practise however, I think the only direction a medium size wolf will be able to go is splat down on the ground, when you figure in the load that the medium sized human And his armor, and gear, is going to add to the animal.

A Wolf's maximum heavy load is 225 lbs. that's the limit of it's HEAVY encumbrance.

A basic starting wolf's heavy load is 300 lbs. 150 lbs for 13 str doubled for being a quadruped.

Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Multiply the values corresponding to the creature's Strength score from Table: Carrying Capacity by the appropriate modifier, as follows: Fine ×1/4, Diminutive ×1/2, Tiny ×3/4, Small ×1, Medium ×1-1/2, Large ×3, Huge ×6, Gargantuan ×12, Colossal ×24.

Good point I had forgotten that quadrupeds have it different, little off though. the 13 str turns to 19 for the table putting him at 350 lbs max heavy.

Sczarni

You don't multiply their Strength score, you multiply their carrying capacity.


ElementalXX wrote:
The rule is not written in pathfinder

Well, it is now. The feat states what the Normal situation is now. "Typically a mount suited for you is at least one size category larger than you."

Add that to the ride skill's "If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks." The feat identifies one way a mount may be "ill suited" and that's not being "at least one size category larger than you."

Now this doesn't help people with mount features but it could work for a Summoner I think. For most people I think your DM would allow the change even for mount features. It'd be nice to see a FAQ though since PFS is a thing.


I had a aasimar pally, and i use a pony as a mount.

I think that the pony, or small horse, is the only suitable mount for a medium character.

Its useful because in the small corridors doesnt have to squeeze, and can ride inside of dungeons.

I dont think that a medium wolf or a medium boar will be a credible mount.


I'm using this feat with a goblin who rides his hawk around, and it's pretty wonderful.
I think the feat is useful, because a medium flyer isn't really as good in my opinion for the role of maneuverability, or as a precision striker. Of course, weight is an issue, but if you ability increase the strength, then there's enough for a light build with the necessities.

The feat isn't necessarily good, but you'd have a hard time convincing my NPC hawk-riding goblin gang.

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