Besides that, Mobile spell casters would want mobile defenders. Looking at that minotaur thing.. If I'm Rooty McStatue Pants, and my only job is to sit still and let things hit me.. What happens if I'm standing still like a good little person who has a melee weapon in my hand for my caster masters, and another minotaur charges them? OR we get flanked from the rear side.
"Oh Whoops, I'm sorry casters, But I'm so bloody incapable of movement I can't help you! Lol!"
The whole back line casters are far more mobile than I, the front line guy, am. As a result the front line is incapable of moving as needed to support the back line. And just being able to stick things with a toothpick worth of damage isn't going to help the casters /at all/
IF the Casters prepared fly, they would be quite capable of flying and avoiding the oh so dangerous minotaur that would charge them. Unless of course the minotaur too could fly.
Being able to use more of my full damage as a guy who uses a sword, means the caster can use less of his spells to do damage. The fact I can bounce around less mobile martials, means the cleric can use less of his heal spells on me.
Meaning basically, If I'm getting hit less and for less damage, and I'm hitting more often and harder, battles use up less resources from the casters.
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The scout in Complete Adventurer Was a highly mobile class, in fact it relied on movement to do more dmg. If you moved 10' or more in a round you got a + d6 to dmg based on your level. We need more mobile classes because the game isn't about getting hit and healed it is about avoiding said dmg and doing more with fewer resources.
While it relied on moving 10feet like that, the problem was of course your DPR still kinda dropped a bit due to the difficulties of getting that all the time, and overall not being able to do a full attack (which is where the money is really at)
However the Dervish from Complete Warrior provided a rather large expansion to killing things on the move with its dervish dance ability and its ability to have a full round attack while still moving.
Dawnflower Dervish fighter Archetype though does well to do this again, even though you drop an attack. For a bow wielding high mobility fighter, pretty dang good.
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A prior poster mentioned Monk as the mobile fighter. For this, I agree.
One of out Master of many styles shenanigons was to take 'mobile fighter' as we know it and turn it on it's head. Most people imagine safely running through enemies lines without being attacked. I made it where you HAD to be AoOed to trigger your full power.
Panther Style + Snake Style chains essentially meant that the player could make opp attacks in response to someone elses' opp attks. Eventually getting a number of Full BAB attks, if there were enough enemies in close quarters, that you were out pacing Flurry. For a Move Action. My latter plan was to then cap it with Vital Strike, and a Greatsword.
While it relied on moving 10feet like that, the problem was of course your DPR still kinda dropped a bit due to the difficulties of getting that all the time, and overall not being able to do a full attack (which is where the money is really at)
However the Dervish from Complete Warrior provided a rather large expansion to killing things on the move with its dervish dance ability and its ability to have a full round attack while still moving.
Combining these works too.
And there are magic items and feats that granted extra move actions as well in 3.5.
A prior poster mentioned Monk as the mobile fighter. For this, I agree.
One of out Master of many styles shenanigons was to take 'mobile fighter' as we know it and turn it on it's head. Most people imagine safely running through enemies lines without being attacked. I made it where you HAD to be AoOed to trigger your full power.
Panther Style + Snake Style chains essentially meant that the player could make opp attacks in response to someone elses' opp attks. Eventually getting a number of Full BAB attks, if there were enough enemies in close quarters, that you were out pacing Flurry. For a Move Action. My latter plan was to then cap it with Vital Strike, and a Greatsword.
This Monk of the Seven Forms is what I believe a mobile warrior shoud be like.
With Lightning Finish at level 12 you gain the ability to take 2 5-ft steps a turn. The cool part though is that they also gain the ability to use Dance of one hundred/thousand cuts, giving them bonuses to hit, ac, and reflex saves as long as they hit once per turn and move 10 ft. So they can constantly dance around the battlefield and gain bonuses while doing it.
First off whats BSF means?
Second. What if they gave Swashies a bonus to moment like at level 5 you could take a 10 foot step rather than a 5 foot and full attack, at 10 its 15, all the way to 25foot at level 20. would that help you swashbucklers out?
^^^
Pretty much what he said. BSF became popular from Treantmonk's Guide to the God Wizard.
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I think every class should just improve 5-foot step as their BAB increases. Add 5 feet for every iterative attack. I think that'd help out a lot, and those 1/2 BAB guys wouldn't get up to a 10-foot step until level 12 when they can dimension door and 6th-level cast their way out of things anyways. I might incorporate that into my next campaign as a houserule, see how it works.
To be fair, I'm not sure that many classes that are supposed to be "mobile" really are. Even pounce is just a way to get a full attack on a charge. It's a strategy that's easily thwarted by terrain or crowds (and unfortunately, the only way that I can think of right now to ignore difficult terrain is to use dragon style, which only a Master of Many Styles monk could combine with the pummeling style feats). Even if you do get pounce, you're still just full-attacking once you're in melee.
So there are certainly problems with the swashbuckler's mobility (among other things), but I think it's largely rooted in the turn-based and action-based combat system. Within this system, it seems that what "mobile" actually means is:
-class features that are geared toward characters with high dexterity: finesse, good reflex save, dex-based mobility skills, limited to light armor, the dodge bonuses from nimble
-opportune parry and riposte could be considered a form of "mobility;" with combat reflexes, a swashbuckler could "quickly" defend against many incoming attacks
-a (sadly small) number of deeds that affect mobility, like derring-do and kip upSo the swashbuckler could be considered mobile in a sense. It's just that a lot of that mobility seems rooted in the fiction of the game (the imaginary image of the swashbuckler making quick rapier thrusts and parries--mostly it's the arm that's mobile), and makes the swashbuckler "mobile" and "fast" within the given 5' grid square/hex they occupy.
What I think we can ultimately take from this is that this is a problem that's larger than just the swashbuckler, and is inherent in the way that melee combat works in Pathfinder in general. What I'm curious about is what "mobile" should actually mean in this system, and how to implement that onto the swashbuckler. Some ideas:
-breaking the rules on charge lines: allowing change of direction mid-charge, charging over rough terrain, being able to use acrobatics while charging (like the 3.5 Swashbuckler who could charge...
The ability to move, attack and then move again in the same turn.
The ability to move without triggering attacks of opportunity.
Those two things would be very useful from a mobility perspective.
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What stops you from taking spring attack? I've played a lot of characters like that. I think mobility and spring attack on a dex based fighter works just fine.The reason people don't bother with it is because GMs and modules cater to the idea that 99% of the time the party can win any fight without healing or running. If you don't need healing or escape or MOBILITY, the only measure of success is how fast you crush encounters, or how much more damage you do than another player.
If 1/3 of encounters are unwinnable for an optimized party and the PCs know it at character creation, you see a whole lot more shape shift, spring attack, healing spells, fog clouds and horses.
Well lets break it down then shall we?
First off you need a total of three feats to have spring attack, Dodge mobility and of course Spring attack.
This means without bonus feats, you cannot have spring attack till level 5. Which alright, its okay since its a BAB +4 requirment which means you couldn't have it any earlier than level 4.
Now that we've spent the first 3 feats we have on spring attack, you know what we didn't get?
Weapon Finesse. So we'd have to go to level seven without bonus feats to get weapon finesse. Or we're suffering 2 or 3 points of AB decreases, if not more.
Obviously we want that ahead of the game don't we? Cause Doesn't matter how mobile we are. If we can't hit the enemy, we will eventually get killed.
So we've got our first four feats selected now, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse and finally Spring attack. But wait.. Enemies tend to have DR too. And here we're fighting with no real str bonus, and everything is reliant on our weapon damage mostly. Sounds like we should get Vital Strike. I mean, come on that feat is Built for these things. Wait whats that? We can't use VS with SA? Seriously?!
So now our little rapiers and knives are not doing much damage at all against anything with DR agaist them. So we've gotta go take weapon focus and slashing grace, or something to add our dex or something to the weapons damage.
TL;DR - Basically the point I'm trying to make, is that feats are very limited. And a single attack a turn does not a mobile fighter make, but its nothing more than a mear ant scratch. We're taking about people who can Jump out of a plane without a parachute and survive with only minor injuries
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...To be fair, I'm not sure that many classes that are supposed to be "mobile" really are. Even pounce is just a way to get a full attack on a charge. It's a strategy that's easily thwarted by terrain or crowds (and unfortunately, the only way that I can think of right now to ignore difficult terrain is to use dragon style, which only a Master of Many Styles monk could combine with the pummeling style feats). Even if you do get pounce, you're still just full-attacking once you're in melee.
So there are certainly problems with the swashbuckler's mobility (among other things), but I think it's largely rooted in the turn-based and action-based combat system. Within this system, it seems that what "mobile" actually means is:
-class features that are geared toward characters with high dexterity: finesse, good reflex save, dex-based mobility skills, limited to light armor, the dodge bonuses from nimble
-opportune parry and riposte could be considered a form of "mobility;" with combat reflexes, a swashbuckler could "quickly" defend against many incoming attacks
-a (sadly small) number of deeds that affect mobility, like derring-do and kip upSo the swashbuckler could be considered mobile in a sense. It's just that a lot of that mobility seems rooted in the fiction of the game (the imaginary image of the swashbuckler making quick rapier thrusts and parries--mostly it's the arm that's mobile), and makes the swashbuckler "mobile" and "fast" within the given 5' grid square/hex they occupy.
What I think we can ultimately take from this is that this is a problem that's larger than just the swashbuckler, and is inherent in the way that melee combat works in Pathfinder in general. What I'm curious about is what "mobile" should actually mean in this system, and how to implement that onto the swashbuckler. Some ideas:
-breaking the rules on charge lines: allowing change of direction mid-charge, charging over rough terrain, being able to use acrobatics while charging (like the 3.5
You WANT to provoke attacks of opportunity as a swashbuckler so you can trigger your opportune parry and riposte, punish the offending foe and keep going on your merry way. This also lets other characters move past the foe since they wasted their AoO on you.
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Human Rogue 6 - Sneak Attack 3d6
1 - Weapon Finesse
1 - Dodge
2 - Combat Trick - Mobility
3 - Two Weapon Fighting
4 - Rogue Talent - Escaping Stunt
5 - Weapon Focus
6 - Combat Trick - Spring AttackHuman Fight 1 / Rogue 4 - Sneak Attack 2d6
1 - Weapon Finesse
1 - Dodge
1 - Mobility
3 - Rogue Talent - Escape Stunt, Feat - Weapon Focus
5 - Rogue Talent - Fast Stealth, Feat - Spring AttackI don't promise those write-ups are exactly right but, Rogues are mobile fighters. You get past DR with SA damage.
I was almost going to correct you, but it turns out that I was wrong Jason Bulmahn does indeed say you can overcome DR with SA, which is fantastic.
Spring attack is nice from a design standpoint, but has massive scaling issues. If you pick it up as soon as possible it's pretty effective, but a couple levels later you're cutting your damage in half and it goes downhill from there and that's not even discussing the fact that you're down quite a few (slightly dubious) feats to get there.
Maybe if you could vital strike with spring attack and if the Swash got both as bonus feats you might have something appealing at medium and high levels though.
For example, a barbarian with fleet twice and under the effects of expeditious retreat has a speed of 80. He can move 40', strike with a reach weapon and escape 40 feet. By using any terrain to put a bend in the path he takes, he could prevent his enemy from charging him back after his move. If he also has sunder, he can break his opponent's bow.
That's nice and all... but said Barbarian could also just pounce and kill the enemy outright rather than set up all these contingencies.
Ultimately the massive reduction in damage keeps Spring Attack from being sustainable at mid or high levels. At level 4 or 5 when everyone is only make one attack anyways, sure, works great. But nothing in your post really contradicts the fact that the feat scales horrendously and that making a single attack against a single target stops being a winning strategy later in the game when it causes you to do a third or less of your expected damage.
Prolonging combat by two or three rounds ends up being as great a risk (at least) as any you're solving by spring attacking away.
Talking trash while defending Spring Attack. Priceless.
For example, a barbarian with fleet twice and under the effects of expeditious retreat has a speed of 80. He can move 40', strike with a reach weapon and escape 40 feet. By using any terrain to put a bend in the path he takes, he could prevent his enemy from charging him back after his move. If he also has sunder, he can break his opponent's bow.That's nice and all... but said Barbarian could also just pounce and kill the enemy outright rather than set up all these contingencies.
Ultimately the massive reduction in damage keeps Spring Attack from being sustainable at mid or high levels. At level 4 or 5 when everyone is only make one attack anyways, sure, works great. But nothing in your post really contradicts the fact that the feat scales horrendously and that making a single attack against a single target stops being a winning strategy later in the game when it causes you to do a third or less of your expected damage.
Prolonging combat by two or three rounds ends up being as great a risk (at least) as any you're solving by spring attacking away.
Look at my above posts for context. I get that pounce is better in a game where it is known that in 99% of cases the GM will not let the players lose anyway, either by GM intervention or by adventure design where challenges can't be lost. If that is your scenario, there is no reason to spring attack or heal. You only excel by dealing more damage faster than other PCs.
If you are in a game, sandbox perhaps, where many many NPCs can't be overcome initially or without planning, or at all, escape and healing are more important.
Here is a match up:
Fighter 1 / Barbarian 4 with Boots of Speed, Enlarge cast by a wizard and a +2 Long Spear
1 - Dodge
1 - Mobility
1 - Power Attack
3 - Sunder
5 - Spring AttackOrcish Fighter 10
Power Attack, Bull Rush, Cleave, Toughness, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will,...
Um... what?
I'm sorry but if your Spring Attack guy can survive while bouncing around then your GM is going easy on you... I mean, a well optimized barb can kill most anything within APL+4 within 2-3 around TOPS. With Pummeling Style, a Brawler or monk can do just as well. I mean, you must have never seen a optimized barb in play...
I had a character in 3.5 who totally took this spring attack line. The guy had 90 movement speed before he cast expeditious retreat. Giving him 120 movement speed. He had crazy jumping abilities.
Two enemies, standing just a bit aways from each other, each of them against a wall. Oh sure spring attack didn't provoke from my target, but the other stabbed me good enough I fell. Not on the first attack sure, but While I was doing just one attack to them, they where also doing one attack against me each time.
Later on we get into a fight with a dragon. Said dragon just simply used a prepared action to trip me and then devour me. Cause you know, you could do that.
So yeah. I did nothing in damage. running around like a chicken with my head cut off didn't help me against range attacks. Or traps. Or multiple combatants. Or grease. Or prepared actions to devour me.
So unless the by Gm letting the players lose you mean something like where the GM makes a huge laser beam thing that follows the players path while he has to attack level one rats with his spring attack, that are spread out and around and a number of other variables, specifically to build around the use of spring attack... Yeah.
Look at my above posts for context. I get that pounce is better in a game where it is known that in 99% of cases the GM will not let the players lose anyway, either by GM intervention or by adventure design where challenges can't be lost. If that is your scenario, there is no reason to spring attack or heal. You only excel by dealing more damage faster than other PCs.
You actually have that one completely backwards. Spring Attack is at its strongest against low threat enemies where avoiding attrition is more important than ending encounters quickly. Against high-threat enemies every single round you extend an encounter's duration is another round the enemy has to TPK you and taking that risk is rarely worth it.
The whole "I'm going to insult you and pretend you're playing the game badly for disagreeing with me" thing is a bit trite though. You should know better than that.
As an unrelated aside:
So, he moves 35', performs his sunder with his 15' reach to destroy the firearm
Your Barbarian succeeds at his sunder on an 18. This strategy does not seem sound.
This has nothing officially to do with the class but....
My an archtype I created, can move and full attack but...
Moving less than 15 feet takes a -2 to each attack. For every 15 feet beyond 15, the attack takes an additional -2 to the attack. All of the attacks can be made at any time in the movement. For every 15 ft of movement the character gets an additional +1 dodge bonus. The first square that is left at the begining of the movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity.for every 5 levels the number of squares that doesnt provoke increases by 5 ft.
Hum speaking of the various hit and run stuff. and how vital strikes been mentioned.
Is there any upgrades to vital strike in ACG?
I know there is one for raging and arcane strike, and then some for anyone with Nature magic.
Was there anything that would actually apply to swashbucklers, rogues or other non magic ones?
Nope. The Vital Strike upgrades in the ACG are pretty specifically for Wildshapers.
You can take another feat to grab a druid orison and qualify for the vital strike upgrades but you have to question if that's really worth it.
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Right. They shouldn't have to dip to get that. It should be part of the base combat mechanics.The solution is ridiculously simple: give the classes that are supposed to be mobile (swashbuckler, monk) an ability at level 1 which says that if they take the full attack action then they can move up to their speed, breaking up that movement between attacks as desired.
What's the worst that could happen? The guy isn't getting any more attacks than usual, just getting the attacks he's earned while being, y'know, mobile!
And then everybody dips, and two handed barbars, fighters and paladins are making their full attack sequence while moving. Nevermind that they can somewhat do it everytime, now not every barbar needs beast totem to do so, fighters don't have to wait for level 11 on dervish of dawn, and paladin can now smite full attack while moving.
Meh, while I agree, I think the nature of the game might need to be changed for that. Not that it shouldn't already, but even a moderately well built martial should annihilate just about anything CR appropriate in a single full attack.
Honestly I've always felt like the game would be much better served by the removal of most save or sucks, especially any and all AOE ones, and the reduction of damage overall.
That's my point: it should be the normal game mechanic that moving and full attacking shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Casters can move 30-feet and alter the fabric of the multiverse! But a 20th level martial can't attack twice if he moves 10-feet?