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You can have as many as you want, as far as I know, but they are much more vulnerable than other magical items. It specifically says that they never collide with each other while in orbit, and since there is no shared slot for them to conflict over, then have as many as you can afford/get past your GM before he starts complaining about the 50 things about your head (usually not feasible...but someone could get funny with the cheap dull gray stones as ornaments).
You'll notice that they in fact have their own AC and HP. The cracked ioun stones are what happens when they get smacked around (although they might start off like that too, due to mistakes in the crafting process...which might be intentional). They also are protected by magic that protects you though.
Since they try to avoid incoming objects (which is the reason for their 24 AC), I would doubt that distance from your head has much effect on whether they are stolen from you. I mean, you do not really consciously control their movement anyway, so there is little difference between what you can do at 1 foot away, and what you do from 3 feet away. The most you can do is....whatever is implied you do when you stop a steal attempt (grabbing their hand, doing a warning swing of a weapon, etc.).
Generally, if there is no rule about it, you should just default to the standard rules. The ioun stone is an attended object in your possession.
some GM allow imbedding them into parts if the body...I'm running RotRL and have told my players it is allowed...certain NPCs have them that way
some GM allow imbedding them into parts if the body...I'm running RotRL and have told my players it is allowed...certain NPCs have them that way
Yes, but it's neither easy nor safe:
Implanted Ioun Stones
Not all the secrets of the ioun stones lie with the Ancients. While the First Humans mastered the intrinsic powers of the stones, uncovering new attributes and binding them to devices, the Second Empire explored the interaction of ioun stones and the mind and body, and in time devised a means of implanting an ioun stone within the flesh. This process, originally believed to be irreversible, protected the ioun stone from harm and theft while still providing its full powers to the owner.
Binding a stone to a single owner is a lengthy process. To begin the ritual, the owner meditates with but a single stone in orbit around him. The body must be cleansed by fasting for a period of at least 3 days. If the fast is broken or interrupted, the process must begin anew. At the end of the fast, the owner makes a DC 20 Charisma check; taking 10 is not permitted on this check. Success indicates the stone has bonded with the owner, and may be implanted. Extending the fasting increases the chance of bonding with the stone, but the character may suffer the effects of starvation and thirst if he persists after several failures; the character gains a +1 circumstance bonus to the Charisma check for each full day past the third spent in fasting, to a maximum of +5. Failing the check means the owner must start over.
Once the owner establishes this bond with the stone, he can have it implanted in his body, which takes 1 hour. This requires a DC 25 Heal check (with a –5 penalty if the owner is the one performing the surgery) and a DC 25 Knowledge (arcana) check to succeed. Failure inflicts 1d6 points of Constitution damage and means the implantation process must start again. Success binds the stone on the surface of the owner’s skin in a location of his choice (usually the head, arm, or hand), where it becomes one with the owner’s flesh, deals him 1d2 points of Constitution damage (which he can heal naturally or with magic), and gives him the full benefits of the ioun stone. Once implanted, an ioun stone may not be sundered or targeted by effects and cannot be removed without the owner’s consent while he is alive (barring complete removal of the implanted body part).
Rumors exist of stranger, darker magics that allow spellcasters to channel spells through their implanted stones, or that cause the stones to shatter if the owner is killed, but those with any actual knowledge of these procedures are dead, hidden, or not talking.
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Okay apparently I got something very wrong. I am relativly new to the game and not a native speaker...
Okay so what exactly changes after the first 24 hours wearing an item?
Right now I dont realy get what the "temporary" in the item descriptions means.Greetings Hyper.
It means that after 24 hours, the stat boost is considered a permanent change to your character's ability score, not just a temporary boost like from a spell. So if you have a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 on your Cleric to boost his Wisdom from 16 oto 18, for the first 24 hours you get +1 to the save DC of your spells, +1 to all your Wisdom-based skill bonuses, and +1 to Will saves. After 24 hours, it becomes permanent, so it also gives you a 4th-level bonus spell and more uses of your domain powers (which are 3+Wis bonus times per day).
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Since most GMs never bother to mention the Stones floating around the bad guy's head until it is loot time, I return the favor and never mention that I have them either. If GMs made the things available for targeting I would return the favor as a player, but fair is fair.
Sort of. If you look in the glossary of your Core Rulebook, you will find a section on ability score bonuses.
There it tells you specifically what character stats benefit from temporary ability bonuses. For example, if you get a temporary bonus to strength, you get bonuses to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, Strength checks, and Strength skill checks; but it does not increase your carrying capacity. Why? Because carrying capacity isn't mentioned in the above entry in the glossary.
However, if the bonus was considered permanent, then it would effect EVERYTHING connected to that ability score. In the above example, encumbrance and other factors not included in the glossary listing would also be affected.
It's basically just a means of simplifying things so that (1) you don't have to recalculate everything on your character sheet every time someone casts a minor buff spell on you, and to (2) prevent possible abuses as described by seebs above.
I hope that helps.
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Sort of. If you look in the glossary of your Core Rulebook, you will find a section on ability score bonuses.
There it tells you specifically what character stats benefit from temporary ability bonuses. For example, if you get a temporary bonus to strength, you get bonuses to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, Strength checks, and Strength skill checks; but it does not increase your carrying capacity. Why? Because carrying capacity isn't mentioned in the above entry in the glossary.
However, if the bonus was considered permanent, then it would effect EVERYTHING connected to that ability score. In the above example, encumbrance and other factors not included in the glossary listing would also be affected.
It's basically just a means of simplifying things so that (1) you don't have to recalculate everything on your character sheet every time someone casts a minor buff spell on you, and to (2) prevent possible abuses as described by seebs above.
I hope that helps.
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bonus would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
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Funny story...
My first PFS Character, Lemtwist Bratham Mallentwine Flannelfoot Smyth Olgen Jeebs Nathers Bingham the Third, had aquired a cursed Ioun Stone in an adventure, changed his alignment. *Shrug*
So now when he puts another Ioun Stone up, I have them clack together back and forth, cause, you know, the one is cursed.
It got some chuckles.
...
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bonus would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage
Which has confounded me since its creation.
That definitely didn't used to be the case. It seems obvious to me that they changed their intent halfway through the game's history. If it really was a space saving issue all along, they would have just written something along the lines of the following to begin with:
For the most part, it confounds me because it doesn't make sense for them to take possible rules abuses out of the game with such careful wording, but then to let them all back in by creating that FAQ entry.
Really wish I knew what they were thinking sometimes.
I don't see what rules abuses there could be, though.
If temporary and permanent bonuses are, for all intents and purposes, the same, then there is nothing stopping the whole hat pop trick that was described earlier in the thread (short of specific declared exceptions, such as with a headband of vast intelligence).
And since they dont have a slot can wear them in addition to ahelmet or something else on my head. Also since they have no slot can I have two or more of them? (Doesnt seem right so I am asking...)
They don't have a slot, so you can have more than one. But they would normally be different types of stones, because two bonuses of the same type or from the same source generally won't stack unless otherwise noted.
The balance is that a bonus from an ioun stone is generally more expensive than a similar bonus from equipment that takes up a slot. You won't have infinite ioun stones because you won't have infinite money.
Also is there any good reason why they are All level 12? For the ones that provide a bonus to abilities okay, but for the +1 to AC one?
Just to be clear, the level requirement doesn't mean much. It basically sets the difficulty for crafting it. There are no level requirements for wearing them or crafting them. You could get one and wear one at level 1, or if you somehow had extremely high spellcraft you could craft one as soon as you get the feat. The limiting factor is whether you have the money for it.
Obviously they can get stolen
Or damaged. This is a valid concern. One thing to look at are Wayfinders, which are devices that can hold one (or more for the more expensive varieties) and give you the bonus without it floating around. It may also give you a bonus resonant ability depending on the type of stone. You should ask your DM if they'll allow Wayfinders, because I believe they're setting specific.
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I don't see what rules abuses there could be, though.If temporary and permanent bonuses are, for all intents and purposes, the same, then there is nothing stopping the whole hat pop trick that was described earlier in the thread (short of specific declared exceptions, such as with a headband of vast intelligence).
I don't see a hat pop trick described elsewhere in the thread; maybe I'm just overlooking it.
What, specifically, do you mean?
What, specifically, do you mean?
Stuff like have a single +6 headband that you share between casters when they each prepare spells, then cast some high level spell from a bonus spell slot.
I don't see what rules abuses there could be, though.If temporary and permanent bonuses are, for all intents and purposes, the same, then there is nothing stopping the whole hat pop trick that was described earlier in the thread (short of specific declared exceptions, such as with a headband of vast intelligence).I don't see a hat pop trick described elsewhere in the thread; maybe I'm just overlooking it.
What, specifically, do you mean?
Sorry, I was referring to this one:
Like, say you can use a power "a number of times equal to your charisma modifier". You have a +3 charisma modifier, so you can use it 3/day. You get a headband of charisma +2. You put it on, your charisma modifier is now +4, you can use the power 4/day, you use the power once, leaving 3 uses per day. Take the hat off. You still have 3 uses per day. Now put it on again, and hey, you get 4/day...
That's not allowed, so there's all this fancy temporary/permanent language. But it is absolutely not the case that bonuses "vanish" after 24 hours, and never has been.
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I agree that it seems possible there was a shift in intent; it wouldn't be the first time.
I don't see what rules abuses there could be, though.
I don't think there has been a shift in intent, I think they have had trouble articulating these two points:
1) It operates as the higher score for all non-daily things.2) It operates as the lower score for all things that trigger off daily stuff like spell slots, X/day abilities, etc.
If that's the case, let's hope they see your post and put similar verbiage into print.
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Sorry, I was referring to this one:
Like, say you can use a power "a number of times equal to your charisma modifier". You have a +3 charisma modifier, so you can use it 3/day. You get a headband of charisma +2. You put it on, your charisma modifier is now +4, you can use the power 4/day, you use the power once, leaving 3 uses per day. Take the hat off. You still have 3 uses per day. Now put it on again, and hey, you get 4/day...
That's not allowed, so there's all this fancy temporary/permanent language. But it is absolutely not the case that bonuses "vanish" after 24 hours, and never has been.
And you honestly can't see why that still doesn't work, even with the current FAQ?
Sorry, I was referring to this one:Like, say you can use a power "a number of times equal to your charisma modifier". You have a +3 charisma modifier, so you can use it 3/day. You get a headband of charisma +2. You put it on, your charisma modifier is now +4, you can use the power 4/day, you use the power once, leaving 3 uses per day. Take the hat off. You still have 3 uses per day. Now put it on again, and hey, you get 4/day...
That's not allowed, so there's all this fancy temporary/permanent language. But it is absolutely not the case that bonuses "vanish" after 24 hours, and never has been.
You put the hat on, giving you a maximum 4/day and use one. You take the hat off, dropping you to a maximum 3/day. How many times have you used the power? Once. How many of the 3/day are left? Two. If you put the hat back on, you'll have 3/day, but if the hat stays off, you're stuck with only 2/day
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I would appreciate clarification on how "affects everything the same way as a permanent bonus" doesn't imply abuses like changing power per day limits.
Okay, I'm a cleric with 16 CHA. This means I can channel 6/day.
I wake up in the morning, scramble some eggs over a flame strike, whatever. My current status is:
Channel 6/day, 0 used.
I put on a +2 CHA headband. My new status is:
Channel 7/day, 0 used.
I go lolzing through a haunted house, using four channels. My new status is:
Channel 7/day, 4 used.
I say "Phew, tough work!" and take the headband off to wipe the sweat from my forehead. My new status is:
Channel 6/day, 4 used.
I finish rinsing off my sweaty headband and put it back on. My new status is:
Channel 7/day, 4 used.
I go find some injured orphans, and have a little group hug via two channels. My new status is:
Channel 7/day, 6 used.
I decide to enter a zombie-blasting contest, looking for max damage from a single blast. I swap my headband for a phylactery. My new status is:
Channel 6/day, 6 used.
WHOOPS! I've used 6 channels, and only have 6/day, so I can't channel!
Feeling sheepish, I take the phylactery off and put the +2 CHA headband back on. My new status is:
Channel 7/day, 6 used.
Yay! I have one channel left! ZAP! My new status is:
Channel 7/day, 7 used.
Now I go to the tavern and get drunk, and start doing a vaudeville song-n-dance on the bar, taking the headband off and on repeatedly like a straw hat while I swing a cane around.
My status is now flickering rapidly between 6 and 7 channels per day, but the fact that I've used 7 channels already today is not changing. Thus, no matter how many times my CHA fluctuates, I won't be able to channel any more today unless it goes high enough to give me an 8th channel.
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Okay, so.
Let's say you have a party full of people who channel. And they are poor, but they pool their money and buy a +6 charisma headband.
Each of them can, in turn, put it on and get three extra channels.
Does that seem intentional to you?
Sorry, but in this forum "Is it intentional?" is off the table until we need to deal with ambiguity in "How does it work?".
So if you're GMing a party of nothing but clerics who thought it was a better use of their gold and time to buy a shared +6 CHA headband than all the other gear they need and this fact is somehow managing to break your game, then I'm sure you could get great feedback on a solution over in the Houserules forum.
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Question is: Are there any other sources of temporary intelligence bonuses that don't explicitly state that either they don't give skill points or that they pick their skill points in advance?
Let's science!
The target becomes smarter. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Intelligence, adding the usual benefits to Intelligence-based skill checks and other uses of the Intelligence modifier. Wizards (and other spellcasters who rely on Intelligence) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Intelligence, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase. This spell doesn't grant extra skill ranks.
And just for completeness' sake...
The transmuted creature becomes wiser. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Wisdom, adding the usual benefit to Wisdom-related skills. Clerics, druids, and rangers (and other Wisdom-based spellcasters) who receive owl's wisdom do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Wisdom, but the save DCs for their spells increase.
The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase.
So the spells all have built-in safeguards regarding spells, which is nice.
As for the items:
This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.
This simple bronze headband is decorated with an intricate pattern of small green gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Wisdom of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn.
This attractive silver headband is decorated with a number of small red and orange gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Charisma of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn.
Now, this is where it gets interesting.
None of these have anti-spells-per-day clauses. In fact, aside from the skill rank thing, none of them specify any sort of "conditions" aside from treating it as temporary for the first day. Since the FAQ causes there to be literally no difference between temporary and permanent, this makes those lines meaningless. This seems to support the "shift in intent" theory.
Someone might want to start a new thread, point out the FAQ's effect on those items, and try to collect FAQ clicks to see if a restriction should be made explicit in those items' descriptions. Perhaps I'll do that.
In the meantime, what we seem to have is a situation where a spellcaster who takes off their headband is in the same situation as if they walked into an anti-magic field, except they can get their stuff back when they put it back on (or when they leave said field). How exactly that works (at least with prepared casters) is anyone's guess. Maybe I'll make a thread for that too. Standby.
And you honestly can't see why that still doesn't work, even with the current FAQ?Sorry, I was referring to this one:
Like, say you can use a power "a number of times equal to your charisma modifier". You have a +3 charisma modifier, so you can use it 3/day. You get a headband of charisma +2. You put it on, your charisma modifier is now +4, you can use the power 4/day, you use the power once, leaving 3 uses per day. Take the hat off. You still have 3 uses per day. Now put it on again, and hey, you get 4/day...
That's not allowed, so there's all this fancy temporary/permanent language. But it is absolutely not the case that bonuses "vanish" after 24 hours, and never has been.
It would not work anyway, since the number of times you have used it on a particular day isn't "erased" by taking off the hat. The first use may be the one that hat allowed, but you've still used it, so putting the hat back on doesn't erase the fact that you've already used it once that day.
A really obnoxious abuse would be a +6 INT hat or something (nonstandard) - giving you 3 more skill points per level and 3 additional languages.
Let's say you're 10th level and hadn't put any ranks in knowledge skills yet...you put the headband on, wait 24 hours, apply your 30 skill points, putting at least one rank in all your knowledge skills, and add 3 languages. You then take off the headband, lose 3 languages (not necessarily the ones you just learned), and 30 skill points, keeping ranks in every knowledge skill this time.
Instant skill point and languages respec. Most items bypass this by picking the skills ahead of time, but there's always the exceptions.
Which means it's not a general rule, but a specific one.
Ioun stones for the win.
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So I found the Ioun Stones in the Core Rule Book and I always wanted a floating stone orbiting my head so lets go:
In contrast to any other item that provides a bonus to ability scores the one from ioun stones doesnt vanish after 24 hours is that correct?
And since they dont have a slot can wear them in addition to ahelmet or something else on my head. Also since they have no slot can I have two or more of them? (Doesnt seem right so I am asking...)
Also is there any good reason why they are All level 12? For the ones that provide a bonus to abilities okay, but for the +1 to AC one?
Obviously they can get stolen and this difficulty to steal it should be dependend on the range they are floating of your head (1d3 feet)
So how do you rule this in combat?
Making a Combat maneuver to grap it?
Making somekind of relfex save?
And how is it effected by the distance of the stone from your head?
1) Bonus immediately vanishes when the stone taken down. Bonus takes 24 hours to go from Temporary to Permanent effect.
2) Wear as many as you want. You can use as many Slotless items as you want. They do not interact with wearing a helmet, a hat, or a headband.3) Ancient lore puts these stones as the invention of Ioun Congenio, as a permanent item. This was 1st or 2nd edition. Back then, you had to be 11th level to make any magic items (other than a scroll or potion) as a wizard. CL 12 was a reasonable thing.
4) Active stones are considered attended items, so they work just like the cape you wear or the sword you wield. You can use a combat maneuver to steal one, and they save as an item in your possession.
5) Distance from you does not matter. Either they are circling you can count as an attended item or they are loose and unattended. Held in your hand or in your pack is also attended.
Yeah. And I thought there was a thing saying that int-granting items were like that in general, but I can't find it now. It might have been on d20pfsrd, which I often love but I hate their tendency to put in rules commentary or speculations as though they were the actual PF rules.
Relevant info:
JJ on skillpointsWe wanted it to also grant skill points, since that's what increased intelligence scores do. What we DIDN'T want was a situation where you get an item that grants an INT bonus and put it on your head and get to pick where those extra skill ranks go there and then...
So the solution was to "hard code" the skill ranks into each item.
Intelligence: If my Intelligence modifier increases, can I select another bonus language?
Yes. For example, if your Int is 13 and you reach level 4 and apply your ability score increase to Int, this increases your Int bonus from +1 to +2, which grants you another bonus language.
Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks).
/cevah