Would anyone buy an Adventure Paths Unchained hardcover?


Product Discussion

Liberty's Edge

JJ mentioned in the Hell's Rebels thread how Pathfinder #100 will have an article that adds one NPC to each of the existing 16 APs.

Now I personally *love* the idea of buffing and grooming existing APs and showing some love to everything that has gone on before.

So I was wondering if there are any other people who would be interested in a thick hardcover that really went back and put a new coat of polish on all the APs? With something like 20 APs, say 12 pages apiece for 240 pages or so.

Each AP from Rise of the Runelords to Hell's Rebels could get a bunch of new options, clarifications, subplot seeds, NPCs, organizations, plot twists.

There's a metric ton of wonderful ideas for GMs scattered all over the GM reference threads for each adventure path -- I'm not suggesting stealing that material outright, but material in that vein.

I've seen lots of comments how Second Darkness or Council of Thieves could really stand with a bit of retooling...how the third book of Serpent's Skull needs a GM overhaul...and so on. This sort of book could gather a lot of ideas and give GMs a ready-made toolbox how to fix certain parts of certain campaigns.

With some APs, certain books might feel a little "loose" from the metaplot, and the book could suggest elements on how to tighten up the connection.

Then there are subsystems like those in Ultimate Campaign or things like vehicles in Ultimate Combat... The book could take a look at APs that would have benefited from those rules had they existed at the time, and could suggest for example how Kingmaker has lots of room to make use of the downtime ruleset.

Then there's the possibility of a town gazetteer that the AP volumes didn't have room for but which could enrich the campaign's home base. I don't off-hand remember if there's a good example of this though -- maybe this one was already meticulously covered in the APs.

If there were some particular dungeons that were universally regarded as "broken" or badly designed, the book could provide an "alternate dungeon" to serve the same purpose that could be used to replace the original dungeon in the plot, sort of like how Pathfinder Unchained will have the "unbroken Summoner".

And so on and so on.

So I'm shouting out into the wilderness, "Anyone else?"

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I simply don't see how you could accomplish that in one volume, save by doing a very superficial and generally lousy job.

AP's are not small affairs and I really doubt that 12 pages for each AP is going to do nearly enough to get the job done proper.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I dunno there might be the germ of something interesting here, but I think the Unchained versions of the APs are the ones run with the aid of the awesome people here on the messageboards.

From my own Kingmaker Expansions to Carrion Crown's letters to tie the story together more tightly (I haven't read those posts as I want to play CC someday). I think the APs are vastly improved when GMs use the resources on these boards to add what I like to think of as the "9th Author" to the APs (7 being the Developer, 8 being the GM themselves).

I think APs Unchained should be a thread on the boards where people post the community created stuff they found most handy or inspiring.

Regards,
DM_aka_Dudemeister


I've gotta agree with Dudemeister here, having started DM'ing Skulls & Shackles with all of his awesome tweaks (seriously man, that's great stuff), to all the fan generated content like in RotRL, a well-organized collection of player-generated content in the form of a thread for each AP is probably the best format and the most practical.

Liberty's Edge

It's really tough to wade through the GM reference threads sometimes though, even for a forum-focused person like me. The organization, at least currently, is not the best possible. Although I don't rule out the possibility of building a better web interface somehow. Plus there are probably a lot of people who never even take a look at the forums.

LazarX wrote:
I simply don't see how you could accomplish that in one volume, save by doing a very superficial and generally lousy job. AP's are not small affairs and I really doubt that 12 pages for each AP is going to do nearly enough to get the job done proper.

I think that's a false dichotomy. You can do a small amount of stuff and still have it be very good. A better rum rations game for Wormwood Mutiny would take half a page, and would make the adventure *better*, not worse. You don't need to do 100 pages per AP before a group of small fixes automagically transform from "superficial and lousy" to "not superficial and great".

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A single hardcover for all the APs? Nobody is going to shell out 40 USD for a book that has only a couple of pages of use for that person. It's just not a viable product, business-wise.

Liberty's Edge

People don't play more than one or two APs?

But fine, I admit defeat. If 4/4 respondents right from the beginning think it's a bad idea, I guess you're right.

I guess I'm the only one who would buy this.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Are you talking like the "Rise of the Runelords" hardcover? This is a really brilliant product, though I suppose if I had been a subscriber way back in the day when it first came out, I might not find that much new material.

I would gladly pay for other adventure paths published in hardcover format like RotRL. Such quality deserves a new coat of paint.


Samy wrote:

People don't play more than one or two APs?

But fine, I admit defeat. If 4/4 respondents right from the beginning think it's a bad idea, I guess you're right.

I guess I'm the only one who would buy this.

I'd buy it, too. :)

(It's still unlikely to be a big hit though, IMO).

Liberty's Edge

Wheldrake wrote:
Are you talking like the "Rise of the Runelords" hardcover?

No, that was the entire AP repackaged. I don't want to see an entire AP reprinted (well, actually I wouldn't mind it but that's another discussion); I'm talking about bits and pieces that would help the DM run the AP, or bits and pieces that would help the players with the AP. Like in Wormwood Mutiny pretty much everybody agrees that the rum ration subgame in the adventure is broken and useless -- a redesigned, unbroken one could be offered. Or for Kingmaker, additional feats could be offered to players that would tie into the subsystems of Ultimate Campaign. For that matter, each AP could get suggestions which story feats would work well with that particular campaign, and which NPCs those story feats could best be tied to -- like Nemesis, who would be a good Nemesis character in Reign of Winter, and so on. Could also throw in 3-4 new campaign traits per AP, too. Stuff like that.

But as the early posters have noted, I guess the audience would be limited.


I don't think the idea really works as a hardcover. Paizo has, generally, been very very good at avoiding the common problem with RPGs putting a little of everything into every book, and generally keeping things condensed and consolidated, and this would very much be a case of "I need this big thick book on the table just too look at these 10 pages, here and there over the next several months/years.

I'd still really love to see a hardbound version of Crimson Throne that updated things though... or any of the pre-Pathfinder APs, should they somehow untangle themselves from the limbo of muddled ownership.


Samy wrote:

People don't play more than one or two APs?

But fine, I admit defeat. If 4/4 respondents right from the beginning think it's a bad idea, I guess you're right.

I guess I'm the only one who would buy this.

There are too many AP's most of us don't own or will never get to run. I would rather pay for a 20 for a book that iomproves upon a specific AP that I do own. The book would fix plot issues, and maybe make it a little easier to fun to 20.

But the idea of only getting 12 pages per AP would not work IMHO. An AP such as RotRL might only need 12 to 20 pages, but something like Serpent's Skull or Second Darkness would need at least 20 pages.


I'd be happy with additional content for existing AP's in general. I'd even be okay with a separate small line of 32 pagers at one per AP. I don't expect to see either (yours or mine), but i'd buy them.

Liberty's Edge

Let's talk about additional content for existing APs in general then, and what formats each of you *would* buy it in.

I know a big HC is my format of choice, but I guess 32-page Player Companion thickness things might work too. "Skull and Shackles Revisited" or something like that.


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Improving overall plot cohesion, fixing errors on statblocks, improvements/additions on continuing the AP past book six. I think the 32 player companion book should cover that. If they do a hard back, they may as well do a RotRL type deal and give us the entire AP with fixes/improvments in it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Fixed/improved hardbacks of the other/older AP´s would be a great deal!
Not everyone can afford to be a subscriber unfortunately and even for the subscribers it would be good.
And then there are many new players now who would also enjoy those!


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I think the biggest issue, as others have mentioned, is that many people spend the best part of a year running a single AP so it's just not worth it for many customers. Releasing them individually as $1.99 bolt-on expansion PDFs could work better (maybe even add in a couple of "sidequest" encounters to bulk them up a little.)

From the Paizo side of things, the usual applies - the current product volume has them pretty much at capacity, and they really don't want to expand any further than they already have (my guess here is a combination of a manageable number of staff and being pretty certain they've reached the optimal number of monthly releases before people have to start choosing between which ones to buy, which means any extra expansion ends up with diminishing returns.)

3PP is an option, and I've seen some products that are clearly intended for use with specific APs, but of course then the issue of not being able to directly reference the AP name or most of the storyline details within comes into play.


One thing that would certainly interest me would be a sort of "What if...?" exploring the aftermath of some of the APs. We get that- to various degrees- in the "Extending the Campaign" sections of part 6, but I am thinking something a bit more extensive, and perhaps more specific (sometimes those "Extending" sections have some rather peripheral suggestions). Perhaps even tying the possible conclusions of the campaigns to each other.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Samy wrote:
People don't play more than one or two APs?

I wouldn't buy this book, but mostly because we don't resist APs, but to the notion that people only play 1-2 I think that is crazy,

Our group has played:
* Age of Wyrms
* Second Darkness
* King Maker
* Carrion Crown

We are playing
* Wrath of the Righteous

On Deck is:
* Mummy Mask.

We have to campaigns on going at a time, and in the intervening years, we have had one campaign that was retooled 3.5/Harnmaster stuff, and another that is a stitching together of a number of existing Pathfinder modules that have been retooled with a greater Mythos feel. As well as a smattering of other Modules jammed into APs (Carrion Crown fits well with The Harrowing and Carrion Hill for example.)

So we use plenty of the material that is published by Paizo, the problem is that once the material is used we never resist it. So an unchained book supporting product that is largely out of print just isn't going to sell to us, or to the group at large. I think using book #100 to talk stroll down memory lane is a good idea, but I don't think it is an entire product.

As some one stated above, there is so much great material in the forum to enhance APs. Carrion Crown, which stands very well on its own (book 5 is maybe the weakest, but still good) if you go to the Carrion Crown forums there are a number of threads on ways to bring the horror to the meddling kids that really ratchets it up another notch.


I tend to agree with people who think its too niche a product, and that 12 pages isn't really enough room to clean up specific problems people have with certain APs

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cthulhudrew wrote:
One thing that would certainly interest me would be a sort of "What if...?" exploring the aftermath of some of the APs. We get that- to various degrees- in the "Extending the Campaign" sections of part 6, but I am thinking something a bit more extensive, and perhaps more specific (sometimes those "Extending" sections have some rather peripheral suggestions). Perhaps even tying the possible conclusions of the campaigns to each other.

Why? If you're a DM that's worth your salt, that actually manages to get a group to FINISH an AP. (Many don't make it.) You either are in a position to take the story further in paths that your group has already determined, or you're ready to close the book on it.

That's what makes a published AP YOURS. That's the stamp of ownership a DM and his group of players put on it.


Legendary Games already produces such things (their "Adventure Path Add-Ons").

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:
One thing that would certainly interest me would be a sort of "What if...?" exploring the aftermath of some of the APs.
Why? If you're a DM that's worth your salt, that actually manages to get a group to FINISH an AP. (Many don't make it.) You either are in a position to take the story further in paths that your group has already determined, or you're ready to close the book on it. That's what makes a published AP YOURS. That's the stamp of ownership a DM and his group of players put on it.

Not everybody is looking to do the same things you are. If somebody would rather outsource that work, they have the right to feel so. It's not some sort of law that you *have* to be interested in creating the aftermath stuff yourself.

Paizo Employee

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I wouldn't buy a book like this.

I would, on the other hand, totally pick up a 32 or 64 page GM's guide to the AP with more materials or fixes.

That said, I'm not sure there's a realistic way to produce them. If they didn't send the book off to the printers until the 6th installment was released and digested, the GM's guide wouldn't be out until we were well into the next AP.

I think, all in all, prowling the forums works out best.

Cheers!
Landon

Liberty's Edge

Landon Winkler wrote:
That said, I'm not sure there's a realistic way to produce them. If they didn't send the book off to the printers until the 6th installment was released and digested, the GM's guide wouldn't be out until we were well into the next AP.

There are plenty of groups who play APs some time down the line. It's not like APs get exclusively played precisely when they're released. In fact I would be willing to bet that's a minority.

Having a couple of years between the AP and the "Revisited" would allow for a good decent time to gather tips on what works and what doesn't work. I'm not talking about instant errata, I'm talking about going back to, and polishing, older stuff.


I would like a hardback rerelease of all the APs like they did with Runelords. I could go back and get some old ones I missed and clear up some shelf space by replacing the ones I already have. I could then take the individual extra copies I have a trade them to one of my friends who also DMs.


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Triphoppenskip wrote:
I would like a hardback rerelease of all the APs like they did with Runelords. I could go back and get some old ones I missed and clear up some shelf space by replacing the ones I already have. I could then take the individual extra copies I have a trade them to one of my friends who also DMs.

Don't expect Paizo to publish more re-release AP compilations like the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition.

While they never say "never," the Paizo executive team has gone on-record NUMEROUS times saying that even the perception that they would be releasing AP compilation products could seriously hurt sales of Adventure Path subscriptions. Why subscribe when you can just wait for the compilation, after all?

The Adventure Path is their bread-and-butter product line, and has more subscribers than any other line. Paizo relies on regular subscription income as their economic baseline, and they have been very successful with that business model. Don't expect them to change it.

With that out of the way, I really don't see this kind of product to be a huge seller. For the most part, I buy products that supplement the APs or other adventures that I plan to run. It takes my group 2-3+ years to play through a single AP. At this point, I have more Adventure Paths than I will likely ever run in my lifetime... and I'm still subscribing!

Why do I still subscribe? While I may not run through APs, I regularly grab encounters, maps, game mechanics, NPCs, themes, monsters, items, etc from APs to use in the adventures I'm running.

For example, right now, I'm running a homebrew urban campaign set in Korvosa. About 80% of the encounters have been from published sources, although all of them tweaked a bit here and there to make a coherent storyline. I'm mostly using TPK Games' The Reaping Stone, but I've also pulled in elements from...

* PFS Scenario Rise of the Goblin Guild
* The set piece "St. Caspieran's Salvation" and gambling games from "The Golden Goblin" article from Shadow in the Sky (Second Darkness #1)
* The maps from "Four Faces of the Father," one of the Missions in Magnimar from The Asylum Stone (Shattered Star #3)
* "The Shingles Chase" and "The Ambassador's Secret" encounters from Edge of Anarchy (Curse of the Crimson Throne #1) -- including a deadly game of Knivesies.
* "Lavender's Cure-All" and the maps from "Body Count" encounters from Seven Days to the Grave (Crimson Throne #2)
* The library research mechanic from Shifting Sands (Mummy's Mask #3)
* Several traps either stolen from or inspired by traps appearing throughout Mummy's Mask.
* Part Four, "A Legacy of Wrath" from Shards of Sin (Shattered Star #1)
* Several magic items from The Emerald Spire

So, I'll continue to subscribe, even if I never actually play through all the APs. They're a gold mine of gaming inspirationn... or a trove of gaming teasure to steal from.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Although this is an interesting idea... it's not something our current staff (myself included) would be able to produce without skipping an Adventure Path. Which, due to the nature of the subscription model for how we sell them, is not an option.

Remember... a book like this would have to be developed (and possibly even written in part) by either myself or Rob... and we are currently both at capacity in doing the adventure paths we're currently doing.

The "Continuing the Campaign" articles at the end of each AP, the upcoming special retrospective in #100, and advice and add-ons from folks in these forums who have homebrewed their own expansions will have to do.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks, James.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Samy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:
One thing that would certainly interest me would be a sort of "What if...?" exploring the aftermath of some of the APs.
Why? If you're a DM that's worth your salt, that actually manages to get a group to FINISH an AP. (Many don't make it.) You either are in a position to take the story further in paths that your group has already determined, or you're ready to close the book on it. That's what makes a published AP YOURS. That's the stamp of ownership a DM and his group of players put on it.
Not everybody is looking to do the same things you are. If somebody would rather outsource that work, they have the right to feel so. It's not some sort of law that you *have* to be interested in creating the aftermath stuff yourself.

The problem is.... value for money received. If I only finish a couple of AP's much of the book has no value to me. There's also no reason for the extra production cost of a hardback.

What would make MUCH more sense is a small soft cover supplement or better yet, downloadable PDF targeted for a single AP. That leaves room for a lot of material, and it would be content that's totally applicable to my use.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
If I only finish a couple of AP's much of the book has no value to me.

That's how you think and I will respect that.

But me personally, I don't think that way. I expect that "someday", I'll get around to all the APs, or at least a big majority of them.

Silver Crusade

Our group(s) has finished the following AP's

Shattered Star, Skulls & Shackles, Kingmaker and Council of Thieves.

We are 3 books into Carrion Crown, Mummy's Mask and Wrath of the Righteous.

We are 2 books into Reign of Winter and Iron Gods.

I am currently running Giantslayer and am finished with part 1 of book 1 (very excited for part 2, so much chaos)

And in a completely different group we are on book 6 of Rise of the Runelords.

We've gotten into Jade Regent, but never finished it, and we haven't even played Serpent's Skull or the other AP's that don't have a revamp since PF became PF (though one of our GM's wants to run Second Darkness when a slot opens up.

We play night games (most of our group are single guys, two of us are married but we play at night from 9-12.)

We play Wednesday (alternateding 2 sessions each of Anima: Beyond Fantasy and Reign of Winter)

Thursday (alternating 2 sessions eachWrath of the Righteous and Iron Gods)

Friday (alternating 2 sessions each of Carrion Crown and Emerald Spire)

Saturday (This one is more up in the air, but Giantslayer, Mummy's mask and a couple of homebrews are in this slot)

And Sunday (this is a homebrew PF which is one of my favorite games at the moment, and Big Eyes Small Mouth X-Men)

My Runelords group meets on mondays, but our GM is an accountant and super busy at the moment, so he's not running until Tax season is over.

This book is super awesome to me, especially since we come to ap's later sometimes.

Also, I'd like to throw my hat in for anniversary additions (or a similar analog to that) of older AP's, updated with some new rules. Like Kingmaker taking the Ultimate Campaign stuff into account, or other similar stuff.

I think an Inner Sea hardcover NPC book could be an ideal place to inject a collection of good supplements for the AP's, or a campaign setting book in general (similar to how the artifact book had a ton of stuff on Briar from Kingmaker.)

Essentially I think it'd be better served as a Campaign Setting line release, with a ton of stuff directed toward supplementing AP's, but could be used as a general supplement for anyone's game.

Also, I'd like to see re-vamped caravan rules. It was a great concept that was poorly executed. Especially across the crown of the world, every combat essentially became the caravan getting damaged so much that they had to take an extended break to fix it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'd buy Curse Crimson Crown updated from 3.5 in hardcover. It seems to be a lot of people 's favorite. I don't think Second Darkness or Legacy of Fire are popular enough to warrant a reprint.

Other than that, keep cranking out the new stuff every month other than updates of old stuff. And please, something set in Casmaron and Vudra.


Maybe 5 dollars for a 16 page pdf AP revisited, for each one

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