Arcanist Archetypes


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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So, lets discuss the Arcanist archetypes here...I was looking over the Arcanist and its archetypes... and quite honestly, they are pretty cool. What do you guys think?

Blade Adept is actually pretty cool. By grabbing the Eldritch Blade exploit you can easy pump up your Black Blade with the Eldritch Knight archetype pretty easy. The fact you get spell strike as well is pretty cool. allows you to play a more casty Magus...

Blood Arcanist is makes my cry honestly... I mean, with this in existance, doesn't this just straight make the arcanist a better Sorcerer? The only advantage the sorcerer has over the arcanist is a few bonus feats... which are usually decent,but not great...

Brown Fur Transmuter seems pretty good... Very awesome for powerful buffing of your melee guy... or if you are a trying to go EK...

Eldritch Font These guys seem.... interesting. The lose a lot but the ability to potentially consistantly spam your Arcana Pool seems awesome...

Elemental master eh... doesn't seem that great... maybe if you could combine with Eldritch Font to maintain your Pool... but otherwise really meh...

Occultist is awesome... then again... spammable summons is always awesome xD

White Mage is actually pretty cool. Strong? No, but having the ability to heal when you need to but also having access to the Arcane spell list is damn cool :P. The ability to hand out fast healing is also cool.

School Savant is kind of meh. Expands their spells prepared but kinda boring to me. Actually... with this, the Arcanist is pretty much an Exploiter Wizard+....

Spell Specialist seems like it was built for blaster guys... kinda dull and not that great but cool I guess...

Unlettered Arcanist really meh... being forced to use the Witch spell list hurts... alot.


I'm seriously digging the Blood Arcanist and the White Mage.

Blood Arcanist: I was really groovin' on a Nanite Bloodline Sorcerer. I'm still torn between the Sorc and the Blood Arcanist, mainly because the levels of the surrendered exploits make me cringe.... But I'm seriously considering an Android Blood Arcanist w/ Nanite Bloodline + Eldritch Heritage Serpentine (with IEH if I can talk the GM into letting me get Envenomed instead). I got a thing for poisons :p.
-That said, it does irk me that they practically become better sorcs. It's only through the sorc's sheer number of spells per day that make me still consider playing one. And the Wild Blood, since I doubt Blood Arcanists can get a wild bloodline.

White Mage: My fiance has always been intrigued with arcane casters, but usually stuck with the Rogue (and boy can she make a Rogue useful). At most, she's played one oracle to date... She usually plays the healer types in MMOs, so I think I might be able to ease her into arcane casters with this archetype. This one makes me very, very happy.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The only comments I have is that four of the archetypes strike a awkward note,

White Mage: while have some nice healing exploits, they should have access to all cure spells as well, otherwise your just an arcane caster with a nice heal effect.

Unlettered Arcanist: While the ability to use a familiar and witch spells are cool, without access to some of those Hex abilities the archetype falls short of the mark.

Blood Arcanist and School Savant: And the wizard and sorcerer have died. don't get me wrong, if you like the bonus spells, feats, and skills available to these classes they are still viable options. but when you compare the spell versatility against the wizard and the number of spells learnable compared to the sorcerer and the fact that these two archetypes in a sense gives you all the class features that made them strong, you have just sent them home packing. so unless you ban these archetypes and their related exploits from your homegame you may find less sorcerers and wizards at your table and a whole load of arcanists.


I like to think arcanists will become the new vanilla, not just the first few months, the class is versatile, cool and player friendly, along with the archetypes mentioned you can patch on a "Sorcerer" or "Wizard" sticker on and the old guys will start to look like rigid Alternates of the Arcanist, not vice versa.

I also like to advocate blasting as a valid character build direction, that the Elemental Master achetype gets an extra daily spell at nearly no cost, that there is very powerful, you essentially get all of your regular spells along with a bonus free blast at each spell level.

The Exchange

Re: School Savant, this favored class bonus:

"Wizard: Select one arcane school power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier. The wizard adds +1/2 to the number of uses per day of that arcane school power."

...is not available to the arcanist. For my divination wizard, that's 10 extra rerolls per day by level 20. That and getting spells at 3, 5, 7, etc. instead of 4, 6, 8, etc. makes me still lean towards the wizard.


I definitely think ACG contributes to Class power creep, you can find proof of this comparing bloodrager bloodline powers with Sorcerer bloodline abilities.
The ability to increase the Caster level and save DC of your spells with Arcane reservoir is very good.

1st Level Bloodrager claws (Such as Draconic) deal 1d6 damage.
1st level Sorcerer claws(Such as Draconic) deal only 1d4 damage.

I know that these classes have a distinction difference of "Martial" vs "Caster", but note that both of these abilities are supposedly supposed to grant equal strength since they both unlock at the same level and at the same cost.

The creep is subtle, not enough to turn me off the system, but it is there, the example given only has a power difference of 1! point of damage.


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It doesn't take much to improve upon Sorcerer bloodlines.


A key point for the occultist is that they get access to their summons on the wizard progression. I'm sure many have noticed this anyway.


tsuruki wrote:

I definitely think ACG contributes to Class power creep, you can find proof of this comparing bloodrager bloodline powers with Sorcerer bloodline abilities.

1st Level Bloodrager claws (Such as Draconic) deal 1d6 damage.
1st level Sorcerer claws(Such as Draconic) deal only 1d4 damage.

I know that these classes have a distinction difference of "Martial" vs "Caster", but note that both of these abilities are supposedly supposed to grant equal strength since they both unlock at the same level and at the same cost.

I'd compare them closer to rage powers, really. In which case they are weaker, because you don't get to choose your powers every two levels(or at all, archetypes not included) and they aren't as strong as some rage powers period(Superstious, Witch a Hunter, Spell Sunder...)


Fearspect wrote:
A key point for the occultist is that they get access to their summons on the wizard progression. I'm sure many have noticed this anyway.

I read this archetype threw my hands up in the air and could only say. "Welp they don't care"

Seriously. That may be the worst idea I've seen in a long time.

Why would you give a full caster free max level summons as a bonus?

The arcanist is strong but that puts it in league with the exploiter wizard.


Undone wrote:
Fearspect wrote:
A key point for the occultist is that they get access to their summons on the wizard progression. I'm sure many have noticed this anyway.

I read this archetype threw my hands up in the air and could only say. "Welp they don't care"

Seriously. That may be the worst idea I've seen in a long time.

Why would you give a full caster free max level summons as a bonus?

The arcanist is strong but that puts it in league with the exploiter wizard.

Funny thing is... the Exploiter is not nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be. They lose their bonus school spells (so they are pretty much generalist) AND they lose their bonus feats for a few exploits gained at a slower rate... and they don't get the greater exploits. They are limited to the basic ones.


K177Y C47 wrote:
Undone wrote:
Fearspect wrote:
A key point for the occultist is that they get access to their summons on the wizard progression. I'm sure many have noticed this anyway.

I read this archetype threw my hands up in the air and could only say. "Welp they don't care"

Seriously. That may be the worst idea I've seen in a long time.

Why would you give a full caster free max level summons as a bonus?

The arcanist is strong but that puts it in league with the exploiter wizard.

Funny thing is... the Exploiter is not nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be. They lose their bonus school spells (so they are pretty much generalist) AND they lose their bonus feats for a few exploits gained at a slower rate... and they don't get the greater exploits. They are limited to the basic ones.

Ok It's on the same level as sin magic.


Undone wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Undone wrote:
Fearspect wrote:
A key point for the occultist is that they get access to their summons on the wizard progression. I'm sure many have noticed this anyway.

I read this archetype threw my hands up in the air and could only say. "Welp they don't care"

Seriously. That may be the worst idea I've seen in a long time.

Why would you give a full caster free max level summons as a bonus?

The arcanist is strong but that puts it in league with the exploiter wizard.

Funny thing is... the Exploiter is not nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be. They lose their bonus school spells (so they are pretty much generalist) AND they lose their bonus feats for a few exploits gained at a slower rate... and they don't get the greater exploits. They are limited to the basic ones.
Ok It's on the same level as sin magic.

Yeah, Sin Magic is actually a lot nastier than the Exploiter Wizard.


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Exploiter Wizard doesn't give up its bonus feats.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The Unlettered Arcanist looks like a downgrade. They have the all-eggs-in-one-basket thing going on that the witch does, but unlike the witch, they don't have a bunch of stand-alone offensive abilities in the form of hexes. At best they have some nice blasting powers. Further, the witch list is just not as strong as the wizard's, and without a patron, they lose even more versatility. Are there some exploits worth giving up the whole witch bag of tricks for?


zergtitan wrote:
Blood Arcanist and School Savant: And the wizard and sorcerer have died. don't get me wrong, if you like the bonus spells, feats, and skills available to these classes they are still viable options. but when you compare the spell versatility against the wizard and the number of spells learnable compared to the sorcerer and the fact that these two archetypes in a sense gives you all the class features that made them strong, you have just sent them home packing. so unless you ban these archetypes and their related exploits from your homegame you may find less sorcerers and wizards at your table and a whole load of arcanists.

'

While I really like both of these archtypes, I don't think they replace either the wizard or the sorcerer in any meaningful way. Whether it's the amazing sorcerer FCBs available (increased DCs for specific schools or vastly more spells known), the significantly larger number of spells per day, high level spell versatility provided by items like the mnemonic vestment, or the fact that it's charisma based casting I think the sorcerer has plenty of upsides for specific characters. Similarly, the wizard's faster spell access, much greater diversity in spells prepared at any given time (especially high level spells), unique magic item optiosn (e.g. annihilation spec's), and larger number of spells per day offers it plenty of upside.

This to say nothing of the fact that all three classes have their own flavor that is quite distinct. Wizards are people that tease out power through knowledge, sorcerer's are raw untrained bloodlines that sling magic like drunken sailors sling coins, and arcanists are those that blur the line between the two.

I have sorcerers and wizards that I'd rebuild as arcanists, because its flavor more closely matches what I wanted in the first place, but I've also got plenty where the arcanist doesn't fit conceptually - and that's more important to me than any small mechanical advantage I can eek out.

YMMV.


The arcanist has made me do something that I never thought possible - take my long running wizard and re-spec him as another class.

As to the archetypes - I looked at all of them, and while they look interesting, I think its much better to be without an archetype and just pick the stuff you want. There are some scary DCs and powers in that direction.


Ok my thoughts on the archetypes in order are . . .

Blade Adept Not personally a fan of this one as it lacks spell combat. I admit it does have some nice abilities and the black blade can be a very potent storytelling tool (and weapon) however frankly since you don't get the cast spells with your offhand spell combat as written it looks to my like you can either (a) cast your spells or (b) draw your sword and cast your TOUCH spells through it. At the very least I'd imagine it'd impair your sematic components and I'm fairly sure your going to need to cast the touch spell on the first round then touch them on the seocncd. Really if I'm touching enemies with my sword I'd far rather be able to cast X touch them for X and then hit them another 2-3 times with the sharp pointy end all in the same round.

Blood Arcanist Love this one and will be using it (if allowed) to take an arcane bloodline arcanist so I get my familiar and a spell casting system I feel happy with. Some of the other bloodlines are interesting the impossible bloodline is an interesting concept as you slowly evolve from mortal beings altogether winding up with say an entire universe existing beneath your skin.

Brown Fur Transmuter Another one I like the idea of (I'm generally a fan of transmutation and colourful spells e.g. colour spray, prisatic wall). Sadly the lack of a familiar hurts this class archetype for me as I do like having a lifelong companion.

Eldritch Font Honestly with what you lose here vs what you gain I'm not sure I'd be interested in playing them except for RP (massive power surging beneath my skin) reasons.

Elemental master Rather inclined to agree this one doesn't really seem to offer much mechanically or thematically to me. Maybe if you added more thematic elements it'd offer something e.g. you gain teleport a level earlier but could only teleport through your element (earth, fire, water, airs the problem with this) or slowly took on its traits e.g. flickering flames, rocky skin, translucent and the like.

Occultist Not for me, nice mechanics but I personally dislike relying on an outside being to grant me my powers which is the same reason I avoid playing clerics.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Re: Unlettered Arcanist

About the only "good" things about it (other than flavor) are:

1) The ability to mix some decent spells (although, without patrons or some other method of expanding the selection, not that many of the best ones) from the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard lists

2) A familiar (without using an exploit or taking Eldritch Heritage)

3) It can be stacked with another archetype; a brown fur transmuter unlettered arcanist (considering the witch spell list, that could probably be "brown chitin transmuter"), while not having as many options as a normal version, could make a creepy option for a drow or ettercap villian if nothing else; an eldritch font unlettered arcanist could use their surge abilities to make the most out of their more limited spell list; an occultist unlettered arcanist makes a good summoning-focused "witch"; an unlettered arcanist white mage can make a better healer than many divine classes.


Dragonchess Player wrote:

Re: Unlettered Arcanist

About the only "good" things about it (other than flavor) are:

1) The ability to mix some decent spells (although, without patrons or some other method of expanding the selection, not that many of the best ones) from the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard lists

2) A familiar (without using an exploit or taking Eldritch Heritage)

3) It can be stacked with another archetype; a brown fur transmuter unlettered arcanist (considering the witch spell list, that could probably be "brown chitin transmuter"), while not having as many options as a normal version, could make a creepy option for a drow or ettercap villian if nothing else; an eldritch font unlettered arcanist could use their surge abilities to make the most out of their more limited spell list; an occultist unlettered arcanist makes a good summoning-focused "witch"; an unlettered arcanist white mage can make a better healer than many divine classes.

I only you could stack Blood Arcanist with Brown Fur and Unlettered... get the Nanite Bloodline Arcana and get the Brown Fur's capstone a littel early xD


Undone wrote:
Fearspect wrote:
A key point for the occultist is that they get access to their summons on the wizard progression. I'm sure many have noticed this anyway.

I read this archetype threw my hands up in the air and could only say. "Welp they don't care"

Seriously. That may be the worst idea I've seen in a long time.

Mmmmm.... maybe. I've just been crunching numbers. This power gets a lot of uses at levels 1 and 2, but then it drops off. If the arcanist doesn't do anything to fill their pool then for L1 and L2 they have more spells than a wizard if you include these summons. Then at L3-4 they draw. Than at L5 the wizard gets a bit ahead and stays there (and isn't obliged to cast summon spells). That said, the standard action and minutes/level is sweet. This happens because of how the pools daily points scale against the points required for the summon - beyond a certain point the arcane pool only gets you one cast/day of this. At L5 you get one, at L6 it goes up to two (and completely drains your daily pool) but then at L7 and on it's one a day plus whatever you refill.

So obviously they refill by consuming stuff. But that means owning staves, or eating L2 scrolls on a regular basis. By the time you want to do this it will be cheaper to buy the scrolls in than to scribe them, so it's 300 gold per pool point. If you're at, say, level 15 and trying to cast Summon Monster 8 then that's 2.4K per cast.

Whereas the level 15 wizard could scribe summon monster 8 for 3K. Or any other level 8 spell. And can actually cast level 8 spells.

And if you're thinking that the even levels are better, well, you're right. But that wizard is still looking at four L8 spells/day to the arcanists three plus one for the pool-based summon, and the wizard has more lower level slots than you. And they can cast four different ones in a day, rather than two different ones and one that's a summon and then maybe another at another cost.

So... arcanists are in the same league as wizards. But there's no obvious superiority going on here. And I really doubt that people are going to default to arcanist - it's a fiddly mash-up of mechanics that many people will avoid just because it's so complicated.


The Occultist is strong at low levels, but the ability to cast Summon Monster with arcane reservoir points doesn't scale well. At higher levels, it essentially means that all Summon Monster spells are always prepared spells if you have Swift Consume exploit. However, the minutes/level duration and standard action summons never lose their usefulness.

School Savant is well worth taking. The extra spell known greatly increases versatility, especially at even levels where you're doubling the number of spells known at the highest level.

I think the White Mage archetype is underrated. Yeah spontaneous healing isn't the strongest ability, but if you're starting at level 1, it's useful and you're only giving up exploits at 1st and 9th. The only drawback is you can't take one of the stronger archetypes.

Blood Arcanist gives up too many exploits for my taste. It would be worthwhile if they received the bloodline spells.


huh. sometime I should see what if any archetypes stack...
edit: at a quick glance nothing but unlettered stacks?

I love elemental master.. but it really isn't strong enough if you ask me; it east almost all your exploits.
Though! let me ask peeps.
Powerful Exploit at lv 9

Powerful exploit:
Powerful Exploit (Su)

At 9th level, an elemental master increases the damage done by her elemental attack to 1d8 points of energy damage plus 1d8 points of damage per two arcanist levels she possesses. The type of damage is determined by the elemental attack. In addition, the range for the elemental attack ability increases to 60 feet (in the case of flame arc, a 60-foot line).


Does this refer to to the lv 3 abilityou gain or does it increase the range and dice for all elemental attacks you can have (i.e. if you grab another elemental exploit with your free exploit)?
I"m pretty should it'll be just that one you gain from the archetype, but it really should have been all the elemental exploits you snag (possibly even that force one but that isnt an element so that is understandable). But your an element master not an elemental master since you can really only use one. It would have been cool if you could use all the elements if you got them with exploits at the increased ability. That way you could in fact play an elemental master, who uses all elements; but is clearly better at one element and worse at the other (as done by the spell)

Basically I think this archetype would have been grand if you could apply the boost to all elemental attacks so you can live up to the idea of a elemental master and not an element master.
I wanna be Avatar ish! not just a random bender.

Though if that archetype stacks with something else it might be cool (as near as i know it doesn't)
If the elemental exploits damage goes up with character level or caster level

Level:
(it just says level but i'm pretty sure it means arcanist level; even if they are hte only exploits that don't specifically mention Arcanist levels
, it would've been really cool to make a arcane trickster dragon disciple or eldritch knight too.


Zwordsman wrote:
Does this refer to to the lv 3 abilityou gain or does it increase the range and dice for all elemental attacks you can have (i.e. if you grab another elemental exploit with your free exploit)?

It refers to the level three power. The language is singular, and is used again for the level 11 power. I agree that it's underwhelming. At 9th it's 7 free uses a day if you didn't buff your pool with anything and you don't spend points on anything else, and each does 5D8 + cha mod. That's... not great. I mean, specialised evokers will pat you on the shoulder and tell you that it's not the winning, it's the taking part. Then they will snigger.

Zwordsman wrote:

Though if that archetype stacks with something else it might be cool (as near as i know it doesn't)

If the elemental exploits damage goes up with character level or caster level** spoiler omitted **...

The only archetype that doesn't use 1st is the brown fur transmuter, and that uses third and ninth, so it doesn't stack.

As a general guide text within class descriptions refers to class levels unless it says otherwise.

Honestly, most* of these arcanist archetypes don't seem as good as vanilla arcanist to me. Even the wizard school one seems a little like a trap, though maybe it gets good after 10th. Before that it's burning most of its exploits just duplicating wizard features, without the spell assets that a wizard has. Hell the wizard even gets more bonus feats, which is the one place where the vanilla arcanist really shines.

*the occultist is the one I like. I just don't think it's game-breakingly good. If I were making a full caster based around summoning this would be the one I'd use.

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