So, with each and every book I am finally seeing monks get the love they justly deserve. Between Qinggong, some of the other new archetypes, and the style feats they have been looking pretty good. So what do you think? Do you guys feel like the monk is finally coming into its own and becoming a class to stand up wiht the big boys without a literal fountain of system mastery?
Personally I am liking what Paizo is doing with the Monk. The Pummeling Sytle feats are awesome and help solve the mobility issue of monks. The archetypes they ahve been releasing have also been awesome:
Flowing Monk is an awesome archetype that is fun to play in a game mainly consisted of humanoids and mass creatures.
Hamatulatsu Master gives the monk the option to target either Fort or will and lay down the punishment and is flavorful as all hell
Harrow Warden is actually very strong and works very well as a debuffer by targetting a fairly good save to hit (will) and pretty muhc lays down a Misfortune effect on an enemy. If you team up with a Witch or Dual-Cursed Oracle you can pretyt much lock an enemy down pretty well for SoS spells.
Hungry Ghost Monks are always a crowd pleaser... I mean, they pretty much allow you to play dick firebenders in Pathfinder by constantly regaining Ki...
MoMs pretty much needs no introduction... sadly with Pummeling style he has further cemented himself as one of the best dip archetypes for martials... ever..
Monk of the Seven Forms Is actually pretty cool as well since it also helps the whole "mobility" issues monks tend to have by giving them a lot of free 5 foot steps a turn, allowing you to constantly move about the battlefield while laying down flurries. Oh! And they fix the whole "flurry of misses" thing by giving them a bonus to hit equal to 1/3 level so long as they keep moving (which they can since they have so many free steps)... oh at 13 they pretty much have haste on top of that...
I am totally not a Bender Monk Pretty much the best thing to ever happen to monks
One of the archetypes that made monks powerful
[url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer] now monks are pretty much the best archers in the game now too
While i agree that the monks are in a much better place than when they began, i have to ask:
Is there a way to make an unarmed, unarmored monk that is effective?
Is there a way to make an unarmed, unarmored monk that is effective?
Qinggong with barkskin instead of slow fall and dragon style for feats.
Aside from the permanency exploit this monk is pretty legit and I used it to nearly wipe a party of PCs built under the same rules (I had a cloudkill effect trap throughout the combat area DC 17, but aside from that she was solo). So a CR13 encounter nearly wipe a level 12 party of 4.
While i agree that the monks are in a much better place than when they began, i have to ask:
Is there a way to make an unarmed, unarmored monk that is effective?
sacred fist does a decent job of it, but its not technically a "monk". its just a warpriest with the monks flurry of blows, ac bonus, unarmed strike possession, and ability to qualify for style feats(for which it receives as bonus feats. since it gains a wisdom based channel at 4th so you can pick up guided and by 7th if you have a deity whose favored weapon is unarmed strike. until then you have to make do with swift action buffs at the beginning of combat and swift action blessings during it.
@christos gurd
Even if you take the guided hand feat you are only making sure that your FoB isn't a flurry of misses, you still don't solve the damage issue.
@Marcus Robert Hosler
Before i begin commenting on the monk from the link in general i have to ask, where does this +3 damage on the first attack comes from?
@Marcus Robert Hosler
Before i begin commenting on the monk from the link in general i have to ask, where does this +3 damage on the first attack comes from?
Dragon style and ferocity both add damage. Style does it for the first attack of the round only.
the monk won't really be fixed until it gets Full bab, i'm happy that the design team finally realized what many of us have been saying for 5 years and will be getting a full bab write up in pathfinder unchained.
the full won't really be fixed until it gets Full bab, ive happy that the design team finally realized what many of us have been saying for 5 years.
Bold mine.
The what? won't be fixed?Dragon style and ferocity both add damage. Style does it for the first attack of the round only.@Marcus Robert Hosler
Before i begin commenting on the monk from the link in general i have to ask, where does this +3 damage on the first attack comes from?
Ok thanks.
Now to the build:
First of all you have the power attack wrong, when FoB the monk has full BAB (so -4/+12) which means that the FoB-PA attack routine becomes +18/+18/+13/+13/+8 2d8+29 first, 2d8+26.
The AC is very good, the saves are also very good, the damage is also very good BUT the attack roll (the +19) is kinda low, not sucky but low, you might need, quite often to forgo power attack, which means you will have an average/good attack roll and average-good damage.
Now on the issues:
1) It uses 20 point buy instead of 15.
2) It uses a (albeit reasonable) house rule on power attack.
3) It requires you to find a 20th level druid or summoner in order to cast on you greater magic fang and it's dispellable.
4) It requires level 5 minimum (iirc that's the minimum for dragon ferocity) in order to really come online.
I am going to run some numbers on some alterations (15 PB, changing the belt from perfection to +4 STR and using a +3 AoMF, yes it puts him at ~25% over WBL but APs tend to give at least that much if not more) and see how it turns out.
I am not saying it won't work, i am impressed by the built but i wonder if it can work otherwise.
@christos gurd
Even if you take the guided hand feat you are only making sure that your FoB isn't a flurry of misses, you still don't solve the damage issue.@Marcus Robert Hosler
Before i begin commenting on the monk from the link in general i have to ask, where does this +3 damage on the first attack comes from?
pummeling style, needing only two stats(str and wis), bodywraps (now even better with it being a single attack), and having bulls strength as a swift action. Thats just to make a reliable damage dealer off the top of my head, no where close to optimized (which i suspect involves a dip in moms for the ability to use pummeling and either jabbing or dragon style together.)
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It's pretty straight-up obvious that a low point buy monk is going to be in a tough spot.
Even with 25 point buy, a Monk is just way too MAD. They need pretty much every stat but Charisma (and Intelligence, to a lesser degree) if they want to be able to do damage AND be tough/evasive enough. If you only play 15pb, Monk is probably not the class for you if you want to feel like you're really contributing.
That said, the Sacred Fist Warpriest is a pretty good alternative to the base Monk. You give up a few flavor things and some movement speed, and get six full levels of spellcasting and blessings, besides.
pummeling style, needing only two stats(str and wis), bodywraps (now even better with it being a single attack), and having bulls strength as a swift action. Thats just to make a reliable damage dealer off the top of my head, no where close to optimized (which i suspect involves a dip in moms for the ability to use pummeling and either jabbing or dragon style together.)@christos gurd
Even if you take the guided hand feat you are only making sure that your FoB isn't a flurry of misses, you still don't solve the damage issue.@Marcus Robert Hosler
Before i begin commenting on the monk from the link in general i have to ask, where does this +3 damage on the first attack comes from?
Doesn't the sacred fist WP gets FoB? becuase if it does then the bodywraps really won't help him if i recall the properties of the item correctly.
Pummling lets you flurry as a single attack.
the full won't really be fixed until it gets Full bab, ive happy that the design team finally realized what many of us have been saying for 5 years.Bold mine.
The what? won't be fixed?Dragon style and ferocity both add damage. Style does it for the first attack of the round only.@Marcus Robert Hosler
Before i begin commenting on the monk from the link in general i have to ask, where does this +3 damage on the first attack comes from?Ok thanks.
Now to the build:
First of all you have the power attack wrong, when FoB the monk has full BAB (so -4/+12) which means that the FoB-PA attack routine becomes +18/+18/+13/+13/+8 2d8+29 first, 2d8+26.The AC is very good, the saves are also very good, the damage is also very good BUT the attack roll (the +19) is kinda low, not sucky but low, you might need, quite often to forgo power attack, which means you will have an average/good attack roll and average-good damage.
Now on the issues:
1) It uses 20 point buy instead of 15.
2) It uses a (albeit reasonable) house rule on power attack.
3) It requires you to find a 20th level druid or summoner in order to cast on you greater magic fang and it's dispellable.
4) It requires level 5 minimum (iirc that's the minimum for dragon ferocity) in order to really come online.I am going to run some numbers on some alterations (15 PB, changing the belt from perfection to +4 STR and using a +3 AoMF, yes it puts him at ~25% over WBL but APs tend to give at least that much if not more) and see how it turns out.
I am not saying it won't work, i am impressed by the built but i wonder if it can work otherwise.
Ah good catch on the FoB power attack error. Fixed that.
I don't believe in 15 point buy (I don't like how the games numbers work out that low. Encourages dump stating which I despise).
The permanency thing is unlikely but I was GM so that doesn't change the fact it nearly 4v1 people with the same access.
Dragon ferocity keeps your damage up, It's not needed early.
It is defiantly lower on offense than defense as levels go up (and the need to forgo power attack will really hurt eventually).
EDIT: With the way permanency works GMF can only be dispelled by a 21 CL or higher.
While i agree that the monks are in a much better place than when they began, i have to ask:
Is there a way to make an unarmed, unarmored monk that is effective?
Depends on the problems you find.
After looking closely at the sohei, I actually ended up finding that at higher levels (with the right equipment for both sides), they actually had lower AC than an unarmored monk using the same stats (assuming strength based).
With 2 stats going to their AC, barkskin as an SLA via qinggong, and access to more caster focused items (bracers of armor), they can get a bit tanky with their AC while still being Strength focused. It is just that low level AC is so low without armor that most monks have to turtle with high DEX and WIS builds.
Of course, even if armor is not as effective at high level (it still makes them a lot easier at low levels), it still rocks since it is another item slot- an important one too with the brawling armor property- an untyped +2 to attack and damage that can only go on light armors. Plus, with the AC now coming from armor, that frees up the hand slot, which soheis would enjoy since they can use gloves of dueling (a +2 to their weapon training).
Pummeling Style and Pummeling charge also are godsends to the monks- this allows them to pool their full attack into one blow (thus, they only face DR once, dividing it among their blows- DR 20 seems more like DR 3 when you have 7 hits; this also means they might skip the AoMF in favor of greater magical fang- maybe bodywraps depending on how that gets ruled- wouldn't hope for it) and they now get what is basically pounce (constant full attacks means they are practically full BAB now)
@Marcus Robert Hosler
About the GMF and permanency:
It can be dispelled normally, the 1 CL higher is about personal permanent spells.
The build also has power attack at first level which can't be taken but it's a minor issue.
I run the numbers with the following alterations:
1) 15 point buy instead of 20.
2) Belt of giant strenght +4 instead of belt of perfection.
3) AoMF +3 instead of permanent GMF. (that means that it's over WBL, even if i fiddle with the feats and gear a little it still goes at 5%-10% over WBL).
The final stats (with racial, level increases and items) are:
STR 23
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 20
CHA 7
AC and initiative are the same, hp are 12 less, saves are the same except fort which is 1 lower, one less skill point per level and the attack routine becomes:
+20/+20/+15/+15/+10 2d8+15 first, 2d8+12
PA: +16/+16/+11/+11/+6 2d8+27 first, 2d8+24
(without the power attack house rule it becomes)
PA: +16/+16/+11/+11/+6 2d8+23 first, 2d8+21
Final thoughts:
I think that it works, the 3 skill points per level sting a little, the dumped CHA is of no concern, the AC and saves are very good, the attack roll is average and the damage is average-good (especially if we consider burning ki points for extra attack), the only real issue i am seeing is that the PA attack routine has pretty much turned to flurry of misses so i am thinking that power attack might not be a good choice (maybe in even higher levels).
All in all i am quite satisfied with the outcome.
(without the power attack house rule it becomes)
PA: +16/+16/+11/+11/+6 2d8+23 first, 2d8+21
Ah I see you think that is a house-rule (really was curious with what you meant by that). It is not. The minutia is boring. The rules forums would be more likely to indulge in that. I'm sure cases can be made for both rulings, it's just irrelevant because at the end of the day the GM will rule it how he or she wants to because the actual rules are whatever the GM says and no amount of rules lawyering should change their decision.
Don't get me wrong, i agree that this is the way it should be and in fact i have the same house rule in my games, but for the folks playing in PFS or with DMs that don't agree it might be an issue.
Anyway now my concern is how/if this build can be viable enough to reach level 12 and whether it would be fun to play.
So what do you guys think about the Monk of the Seven Forms? The ability to use Dance of a Hundred/Thousand cuts seems pretty good when combined with Pummeling Stance/Charge and all the free 5 ft steps (charge one guy, unleash your Hasted FoB, take a few 5 ft steps to get into flanking position to help your buddy out :))
Pummling lets you flurry as a single attack.
Yes and no. You still have to roll all attacks and damages independently; only the first attack and damage roll would benefit from the wraps (assuming you allocate the bonus to the first attack).
Likewise you cannot use Furious Focus to "ignore" all Power Attack penalties while doing a Pummeling Strike.
Don't get me wrong, i agree that this is the way it should be and in fact i have the same house rule in my games, but for the folks playing in PFS or with DMs that don't agree it might be an issue.
You would be surprised at the table variation even at PFS tables.
Regardless of where you are you are playing the GM's interpretation. (You should be careful about calling things house rules that are in fact GM calls. At worst it's flame bait.)
My apologies, i wasn't neither needling you nor flame baiting.
Pummling lets you flurry as a single attack.Yes and no. You still have to roll all attacks and damages independently; only the first attack and damage roll would benefit from the wraps (assuming you allocate the bonus to the first attack).
Likewise you cannot use Furious Focus to "ignore" all Power Attack penalties while doing a Pummeling Strike.
i apologize, i misread bodywraps(checked through a phone app rather than pfsrd) i stand by the idea its a dramatically better option than it used to be though, saving the enhancement bonus for your lowest attack and potentially ignoring dr on the last attack...i think, thats actually kinda debatable on how that works, huh.
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Ah I see you think that is a house-rule (really was curious with what you meant by that). It is not. The minutia is boring. The rules forums would be more likely to indulge in that. I'm sure cases can be made for both rulings, it's just irrelevant because at the end of the day the GM will rule it how he or she wants to because the actual rules are whatever the GM says and no amount of rules lawyering should change their decision.(without the power attack house rule it becomes)
PA: +16/+16/+11/+11/+6 2d8+23 first, 2d8+21
The rules are what are in the book. The rules for "a specific group" are what the GM says they are which makes them houserules.
And if for no other reason than people should use the same terms, when in the forum "house rules" = changes made to the system for your enjoyment, and the "rules" = the official rules per RAI.In addition "house rules" is not a bad term. We all have house rules, and anyone who gets upset about it is being way too sensitive.
What is flamebait/annoying is ignoring the standard definition of something, when you know what everyone else means. No I am not accusing you of this. I am just informing you so you don't become the "wrought" guy.
Short version: We had a poster using words but he used them as his group used them, instead of how most people understood them, and was surprised that nobody knew what he was talking about.
So when we say "house rules" it does NOT mean "you are doing it wrong", it just means you are not using the rules as intended in the book.
At best(not that I think this will happen) people will just say "your rules...." or some similar phrase which basically still amounts to "house rules". There is no need to come up with a new phrase that means the same thing as an old one however.
edit: In my 5+ years here I have never seen anyone get upset about the term "house rules". I have also never seen it on any other site. It is quiet common here. So even if there is some site where it is a problem, it is not the case here.
A multiclass Monk/Magus has the highest damage of the system.
I'd missed the Harrow Monk before. Dang though, that's pretty awesome. The only thing Stunning Fist has going for it is Dragon Ferocity now.
A multiclass Monk/Magus has the highest damage of the system.[Citation Needed]
Actually curious.
Buffed Monk has 8~12d8 base damage
Magus has Accurate Strike to hit vs touch AC and Kensai variant has Perfect Strike to maximaze the damage.
Galeena the Conqueror Ooze is about as rediculous at the Monktopus... now THAT is rediculous xD
Hamalatus Master allows the target the choice of save. At least that is how I read it.
Hamalatus Master allows the target the choice of save. At least that is how I read it.
No, it depends on what you are trying to inflict. if you are going with the bleed or stuns, then they get a fort save. If you are going to try and inflict the fear effects, then they get a will save. So you just need to figure out what their weaker save is and just lay those effects on them.
Well that makes sense! Thanks. :)