Summoned Cards and Darago


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Darago: Nercromancer said wrote:
□ When you defeat a monster that has the Undead trait (□ or any monster) and would banish it, you may put it in your hand. You may banish a monster from your hand to add 1d4 (□+1) (□+2) to your check (□ or a check by any character at your location).
S&S Rulebook said wrote:

Summoning and Adding Cards

...this summoned copy ceases to exist at the end of the encounter.
...After evading a summoned card or resolving the encounter
with it, banish it unless you’re instructed otherwise.

In every other situation it seems plain that a summoned card goes back in the box at the conclusion of the encounter, however I'm wondering if the "unless you’re instructed otherwise" text is relevant when Darago's card-in-hand power is concerned. Or does the ceasing to exist part always win.

Asking for a friend.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I think in this case the "unless you're instructed otherwise" text would actually win, and Darago would get to add it to his hand. The idea in RPG terms would be Darago using Command Undead on the summoned creature, then he gets to control it until it disappears.


cartmanbeck wrote:
I think in this case the "unless you're instructed otherwise" text would actually win, and Darago would get to add it to his hand. The idea in RPG terms would be Darago using Command Undead on the summoned creature, then he gets to control it until it disappears.

I particularly like the imagery of using his Necromancer version of the ability to utilize recently deceased Henchmen against the Villain.


cosined wrote:
Darago: Nercromancer said wrote:
□ When you defeat a monster that has the Undead trait (□ or any monster) and would banish it, you may put it in your hand. You may banish a monster from your hand to add 1d4 (□+1) (□+2) to your check (□ or a check by any character at your location).
S&S Rulebook said wrote:

Summoning and Adding Cards

...this summoned copy ceases to exist at the end of the encounter.
...After evading a summoned card or resolving the encounter
with it, banish it unless you’re instructed otherwise.

In every other situation it seems plain that a summoned card goes back in the box at the conclusion of the encounter, however I'm wondering if the "unless you’re instructed otherwise" text is relevant when Darago's card-in-hand power is concerned. Or does the ceasing to exist part always win.

Asking for a friend.

The rule doesn't say "unless you're instructed otherwise by the summoning effect" so I would think that, as this is a case where you're instructed otherwise, Darago gets the card.


I'd agree, this is being instructed otherwise. Note that at a location like the guard tower, he could drain the box of certain henchmen. Though he'll probably be using then up quickly.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
I'd agree, this is being instructed otherwise.

Hawk! :D

Where ya been all day, guy?

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Note that at a location like the guard tower, he could drain the box of certain henchmen. Though he'll probably be using then up quickly.

That would be amusing. But I think that, like with Skelaton Horde, you would simply make an imaginary one for him to fight that he can't capture.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Hawkmoon269 wrote:
I'd agree, this is being instructed otherwise.

Hawk! :D

Where ya been all day, guy?

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Note that at a location like the guard tower, he could drain the box of certain henchmen. Though he'll probably be using then up quickly.
That would be amusing. But I think that, like with Skelaton Horde, you would simply make an imaginary one for him to fight that he can't capture.

I've been at the beach.

Here is the issue. (Again, I think this will be rare). Darago might, over multiple turns, add all the Bandit henchmen to his hand. And then, at the end of his turn, discard them. And then have Cure played on him. Now all the Bandit henchmen are shuffled up in his character deck. So you don't have one to look at to know what it does.

Again, I don't think it is likely, just interesting. He'd be much better off banishing them for the additional die then discarding them at the end of his turn.


Nice though but Dargo banishes the monsters for the effect so they go back to the box.


How many of his 'captured' monster cards is he allowed to use on a single check ? Just one, or as many as he has available ? Thanks.


Gunslinger679 wrote:
How many of his 'captured' monster cards is he allowed to use on a single check ? Just one, or as many as he has available ? Thanks.

Page 12 of the rulebook:

"Remember that each player may not play more than 1 card of each type or use any 1 power more than once during each check."


agraham2410 wrote:
Nice though but Dargo banishes the monsters for the effect so they go back to the box.

To play them he does, but at the ends of his turn if he has too many cards in his hand he might discard them. Or if he takes damage he might discard them. So there are ways for him to have them end up in his deck. Again, not very likely he will do that with all the henchmen. And the rules cover the situation, so nothing needs to change. It is just fun to note.

The Exchange

I am going to guess that the intent is that he can't discard them, he either used them and banishes them, or gets rid of them from hand in any of the regular ways and banishes them. I expect a clarification on the card here.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

@NOG: I don't see why he'd have to get rid of them. They're cards like any other, and if they end up in his discard pile he can draw them later and use them again. It's like collecting a pile of bones after a battle to later turn into a skeleton.

Sovereign Court

NOG the Demoralizer wrote:
I am going to guess that the intent is that he can't discard them, he either used them and banishes them, or gets rid of them from hand in any of the regular ways and banishes them. I expect a clarification on the card here.

Why would expect a clarification? That's a big thing to leave off a card (Paragraph missing from an armor big), and there's absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be able to discard them.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Here is the issue. (Again, I think this will be rare). Darago might, over multiple turns, add all the Bandit henchmen to his hand. And then, at the end of his turn, discard them. And then have Cure played on him. Now all the Bandit henchmen are shuffled up in his character deck. So you don't have one to look at to know what it does.

I think that the solution is simple enough. Assuming you haven't memorized the henchman stats by this point (you've fought it 8 times in this session alone), when you are about to shuffle the last card into your deck you can write down the details or swap it with a placeholder henchman.

The Exchange

cartmanbeck wrote:
@NOG: I don't see why he'd have to get rid of them. They're cards like any other, and if they end up in his discard pile he can draw them later and use them again. It's like collecting a pile of bones after a battle to later turn into a skeleton.

Simply put, potential deck size. All classes can acquire boons and add them to their hand, later discarding them while still maintaining those cards as potential hit points if there are curative spells on the table. These hit points are balanced into the location decks and are offset by banes that will in theory make you regularly use most of your resources (read as challenge). Our play style in RotRL changed dramatically in terms of willingness to blow cards, take damage, or trade items once we had healing on the table and no longer had to worry about an empty draw pile.

If you have a discard pile, and you have a mass cure, you do not run the danger of dying. Additionally, with corpses in your hand to discard, you will have to discard cards that you actually want to keep much less frequently, an ability that is quite unique to this class.

If the Necromancer is allowed to collect as many corpses as he fancies and can happily discard them as damage, it removes risk from the game. Some classes do benefit from the ability to more easily gain new cards to add to their hand and eventually discard pile than others, but this would be the only one with access to this banes-as-boons ablative armor. Unchecked it is like giving extra mini-blessings out to this class (awesome) and a massive hit point pool (potentially broken).

This could be working exactly as intended, without any experience playing the new decks it is all supposition, but as I stated above, I expect that this will be clarified to state that once the corpse is used to gain this bonus, or when it otherwise leaves your hand, it is banished instead of being discarded.


NOG the Demoralizer wrote:

Some classes do benefit from the ability to more easily gain new cards to add to their hand and eventually discard pile than others, but this would be the only one with access to this banes-as-boons ablative armor.

Lini as Aquamancer can also put monsters in hand, though only Aquatics, but I'm guessing S&S have some of those.


I don't think there needs to be anything stopping her from using them for damage. They are part of her hand, just like any other card. She'll have to discard when she reset her hand. But really, she'll want to burn them at a good pace to prevent her from not having anything other than a hand full of monster.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

cosined wrote:
Darago: Nercromancer said wrote:
□ When you defeat a monster that has the Undead trait (□ or any monster) and would banish it, you may put it in your hand. You may banish a monster from your hand to add 1d4 (□+1) (□+2) to your check (□ or a check by any character at your location).
S&S Rulebook said wrote:

Summoning and Adding Cards

...this summoned copy ceases to exist at the end of the encounter.
...After evading a summoned card or resolving the encounter
with it, banish it unless you’re instructed otherwise.

In every other situation it seems plain that a summoned card goes back in the box at the conclusion of the encounter, however I'm wondering if the "unless you’re instructed otherwise" text is relevant when Darago's card-in-hand power is concerned. Or does the ceasing to exist part always win.

Asking for a friend.

Darago is instructing you otherwise.

Grand Lodge

I'd have to agree with the others that during the scenario, Darago can potentially keep adding monsters to her hand and therefore discard and draw piles. They can be used when taking damage. And when used for her power, banished. Other than that use, they stay under her control. And at the end of the scenario, poof.

Necromancers can be powerful.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Darago is not instructing you otherwise..


Vic Wertz wrote:
Darago is not instructing you otherwise..

Hi Vic.

A couple questions about Darago:

Can his captured enemies be used for damage?

If so, can they be discarded, regained via healing and still used for their 1d4 boost?

Thanks,

T


I am not Vic, but the answer is yes. Once they are in your hand they are a card in your hand like any other. They can be discarded, buried, shuffled, recharged, anything you can do with other cards in your hand.


Awesome, that makes him even more powerful than I originally thought.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
I am not Vic, but the answer is yes. Once they are in your hand they are a card in your hand like any other. They can be discarded, buried, shuffled, recharged, anything you can do with other cards in your hand.

Using S&S Lini's similar power in the Aquamancer role, I've used her monsters to transform more than I've used them for the d4 power.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Darago has such a cruddy deck list(2 armors and 2 weapons on a wizard) that I imagine the extra hp of keeping monsters is entirely built into his balance.


There is only one armoured in the deck. What armoured I should use?


Darago says that it has 2 armor cards in his deck. There is only one B armor card in the deck. Is there errata or other solution?

Grand Lodge

Hannibal, there is a formula in the Guide to Organized Play:

Your character deck must meet the Cards List requirements on the back of your character card. You must use cards from your Class Deck box according to the following hierarchy.

1. Use cards that have the set indicator B and the Basic trait.
2. Use cards that have the set indicator B without the Basic trait.
3. Use cards that have the set indicator 1 and the Basic trait.
4. Use cards that have the set indicator 1 without the Basic trait,
… and so on, up to the adventure deck number of your current tier.

You may not have a card with an Adventure Deck number higher than your tier (or level) which when starting out is 1.


Hannibal_pjv wrote:
Darago says that it has 2 armor cards in his deck. There is only one B armor card in the deck. Is there errata or other solution?

Assuming you're building him from the Wizard deck, you start with Basic from B, then any B, then Basics from 1, then any 1, etc. It's in the guide to the Adventure Card Guild.

edit: ninja'ed!


Thanks! Missed that part. I am using class decks first time in home games, so I was expecting normal deckbuilding.
The problem was that we were using introduction scenario, so the level was below 1... So basically all level one cards were not allowed. But I supose that class decks Are not suitable for starting 0 level adventures.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

If you're not using the Class Deck in organized play, don't feel you have to build your deck exclusively from the Class Deck cards. Just take the cards from the Class Deck that have the "B" set indicator on the top right corner, and put them into the game box along with all of the "B" cards that are already there, then build your deck using cards from the game box that have the Basic trait.

Then, when you add in Adventure Deck 1, add in the "1" cards from the Class Deck too.

This is all summed up on the "ADDING PATHFINDER ADVENTURE CARD GAME CLASS DECKS TO ANY SET" card that came with the Class Deck.


Well i have now 10 people playing the game, so we "have" to use class decks to get over that 6 characters / box limit. (Not playing at the same time though, but at different days)... All in all it is somewhat confusing, because they don't progress at the same speed.
And I suppose that situation will get "worse" in the future, so the class deck playing seems to be the only way of getting every one who are interested in the chance of of playing the game.
Would we call it as a positive problem ;-)

For that reason I think that I will put players using only class decks during the next big box... aka Wrath...
So those class decks are really important! Some players just hope that they would be a little bit more focused. There are some very odd cards to some characters, but what I have read form these forums, there seems to be some kind of solution coming to that problem.

Interesting to see what you will do next!

If i can hope, is to have more barrier type encounters that are not battles, but something else that you do during normal role playing game. Wink, wink :-)
They don't have to be barriers, but to have more diverse requirement for the skills. It will make solo playing somewhat harder, so not sure how appealing it may be from the game planner point of view.

But in anyway it would be nice to see more class decks in the future and even new versions of the old ones that we have now. The game develop, by every new release, so it is nice to see development also in class decks!

Sovereign Court

Well the 6 player / box is only limiting simultaneous play. If someone isn't playing, you're intended to note what cards are in their deck and tear it down. No class decks "needed".

Grand Lodge

Back when we were playing Rise of the Runelords, we used the character sheets that are available here on the website. That way, more than one group could play from the set.

You don't need class decks to do this.


The problem is that there is movement between the playing groups, so some cards can be in different decks. So it it quite possible that same unique card may me in the game 3 times during the same session. So it is not possible to build all deck if class decks are not used. That is reason for that I think I will move to full "guild" play also at home games. It has its limitations, but it will be easier with those "moving" players.

Sovereign Court

Oh wow you have people keeping their standard play decks built and switching between game boxes? How far are you guys into the path? I'm surprised that hasn't caused a balance issue, especially with multiple copies of unique cards (which are generally unique because of their power, especially Loot)


Yeah, that sounds unwise unless you're using class decks & OP rules, which are specifically balanced with that in mind.


Andrew L Klein wrote:
Oh wow you have people keeping their standard play decks built and switching between game boxes?

I don't think they're switching games; they have multiple groups playing the same game using the same box and sometimes players from multiple groups show up.

Guild-style is probably better in that case, but if you want to continue playing from the box try starting each session with a mini "end of scenario" rebuilding. Everyone collects what they can of their deck. If there are conflicts the players work together to rebuild their decks, then anyone short cards has to pick cards from the box using the normal rules.

Sovereign Court

The reason I was thinking multiple boxes are being used is because he said that movement between groups is part of why he doesn't want to tear down the decks. I'm actually really confused as to what is going on.

Do you have 10 people that play with each other, at separate times, but not always with the same group? If so, yes that's bound to cause a lot of problems, even using class decks. It's definitely not something I'd recommend.


Andrew L Klein wrote:
Do you have 10 people that play with each other, at separate times, but not always with the same group?

It certainly seems like that's what Hannibal said:

Hannibal_pjv wrote:

Well i have now 10 people playing the game, so we "have" to use class decks to get over that 6 characters / box limit. (Not playing at the same time though, but at different days)...

For that reason I think that I will put players using only class decks during the next big box... aka Wrath...


Yep... That is how it is working... Some balance tinkering is needed all the time...

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