In theory I love pathfinder. I consider it one of the things that keeps me sane. In practice it's been a major disappointment. I've had a few groups and they all sucked.
In the beginning when I was still learning the rules, I would DM for two people: My best friend (let's call him Scott) and a troubled former friend (Let's call him Chubs). Scott is a self professed glutton for information and as such has never had no trouble digesting the rules of the game. Chubs is a whinny, chronically depressed morbidly obese neck beard stereotype. He always claimed to love dungeons and dragons, and would talk at great lengths about the character he wanted to make, but the second an empty character sheet appeared before him he would stare helplessly at it in a mix of laziness and utter confusion.
I put up with this setup for a while. Sure, a DM and two players was a bit too small of a game for my tastes and one of the players was a tragic paragon of incompetence but it was better than nothing. But eventually, as the whining persisted and Chubs' energy palled things fell from sub-optimal to downright depressing (he would complain of fatigue 45 minutes in and have to throw in the towel after an hour and a half, despite me traveling over an hour to host a game at his house). I remember the turning point for playing with this group was when after six months of playing the game, Chubs asked my friend "So AC is like your defense, right?"
Eventually I found a different group, and one that was willing to come to my house. There were two incredibly hot girls and a couple of fun stoner dudes. There was a lot of smoking and hanging out, but I made one hundred percent of the character sheets. Everyone liked the hang out, but the game of pathfinder was second fiddle to smoking and having a night of fun. I watched as people who failed to do even the most basic reading of the rules floundered about dealing with whatever bullshit quests I half-assedly threw at them. This wasn't cutting it for me.
I was wondering if anyone else has had their experience of playing pathfinder ruined by their inability to find competent players: The type of people who see a blank character sheet and glow with excitement as they passionately perform the necessary work in under an hour and move on to play for hours with full awareness of the rules. People who can keep track of stat/damage changes. People who know the difference between rage attack math and power attack math and rage/power attack math with bull's strength.
Throw in a few power gamers and rules lawyers into the group. They'll make sure the new players know their stuff because that is who they are.
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I usually GM. I help new people learn the rules. And help them make their characters. They usually get the basics relatively quickly, and then roleplay pretty well (I try and emphasize roleplaying as opposed to combat). Honestly, I don't care too much if I have to help people with the rules on combat, I'm good at that, and it's not the main reason I or, I hope, others are there.
So...that's what I do, and I'm pretty satisfied with it. Dunno whether everyone would be, but it works for me, and seems to work for the rest of my group.
You can probably find a decent group on Craigslist, actually (my current group was found that way by our DM, who was looking for more players than the three of us). As always with it, be smart, don't get stabbed, blah blah blah...
Seriously, though, almost every group will have a few people who are slower than the rest or don't know what their BAB is. It just happens.
I've been fortunate in that I've had little to complain about with my groups. One group was cobbled together from college friends, the second (and current) a combination of about half that group plus some online friends met in later years.
I suppose that's the main difference. My group now is all people I've chosen to invite into the game, and with only rare exceptions I've not regretted it. In practice it works out about the same as DMW's take - I GM most of the time, I walk the newbies through the rules, I give them tips and advice (I can powergame when I want to, so I'm not averse to saying "Hey, if X is what you want to do, here's an efficient way to pull it off" if a player wants/needs/requests the assistance, which happens pretty often for us), and it helps that most of the more veteran members of my players are just as willing to give a hand to the newer ones.
...And, moving to a dead board kills the thread.
Honestly, I haven't had to deal with problem players for a very long time. I'm very picky about who I game with.
I'd suggest posting in the Gamer Connection thread to see if there are any games in your area or players looking for games in your area.
Another thing to try is to become a Pathfinder Society GM in your area. Whenever you run a table and a player "clicks" with your play style, get that person's name and contact info. Once you have enough potential players, invite them all over for a private home game (whether it's PFS-sanctioned or not.)
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I am lucky enough to more or less play with the same group for more then a decade. But one thing I have learned is people have to want to play. If they dont have the drive, its not worth wrangling them into it. In the end I'd rather play a 2 person gestalt game then play with people who dont have the desire to put in the effort to learn and participate in the game. To that end, some of my friends dont play in our group anymore. They used to, but because they generally didnt get 'into' it and more or less just wanted to 'hang out' we do other things with them. Go to movies, play board games, play video games, whatever. But rpgs, particularly games as complex as pathfinder require more investment, and everyone, players included have to be willing and able to put that in.
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This is actually a great topic, Zolan. I'm glad you brought it up.
I've run hundreds of sessions, and dozens of campaigns with all kinds of groups. Challenges, such as what you describe here, as well as many others, have killed countless campaigns. Real life circumstances tend to polish off those not murdered by drama.
Among those, I have had a few that did not really care about the game itself. It seemed that they were there more for the social aspect than any of the RP. Thankfully, that number runs low. Usually, I end up asking those people to leave. In a small group like the one you describe, I may just dissolve it altogether.
There are many, serious RPGamers out there... you just have to keep looking :)
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A good gaming group doesnt come without some effort. Make sure and use all the potential sources available to you.
PFS
Meetup.com
FLGS
Another thing to keep in mind is try one shots or PFs with players before sitting down to a long term campaign. In my experience, most people skip getting to know each other and dive right into a long term campaign. They then crash and burn when their tastes or commitments dont match. Good luck, dont give up the fight!
I appreciate all the time and effort put into the responses thus far.
The craigslist idea is really interesting. I've thought about it before, but always shy away from it. I've successfully used CL to meet musicians but am a bit more squeemish about this avenue for pathfinder because it smacks of "DEAR CRAIGSLIST, LOOKING FOR FRIENDS!". I suppose I should swallow my pride and put up with a few weirdoes if it means getting an acceptable group.
As for meetup, that sounds like a brilliant idea. I should try it. The friendly local game shop thing and gamer connection thread could be interesting as well.
By the way it's nice to see I'm not the only one who has had this problem.
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I believe the key is in finding like minded in playstyle and commitment. I dont think you will have much luck just slapping together a group of randoms. Via meeup and PFS you can actually get to know the gamers before you branch out into a longterm functonal gaming group. Good luck fiding yourself some new players.
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Online gaming. I still use flgs for pfs but neither play/run campaigns irl anymore. Too many games died because a couple moved, someone got hours shifted, foreclosure, etc. Online gaming alleviates a lot of these issues, and there is a LOT of online players. A lot still suck, but you can find some good ones.
+1 to that. I haven't gamed live in years, since my first group broke up when people started moving away. But we do two nights a week via MapTool and Skype.
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I can only encourage anyone with gamer connectivity issues to check out roll20.net.
After I moved to the other side of the country recently I tried it and it's quickly grown on me to evolve from a crutch to keep things going to a in many regards next-level experience of tabletop gaming.
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I've been playing with my group now for almost a decade, and we're all best friends now, but I've been there bud. We all met at a card shop and had a group of about 20 or so, and ran the gamut from incompetent to sociopath; some were awesome people, others were scumbags, but we all met for various games from Thursday night to Sunday. I ran some, played in others, made friends, kicked others from my table, and eventually it came down to a core of players; normally I am an inclusive person, I would have let most of them at my table, but a few of the players became real close friends and started playing at my one friends house. At someone's house, it becomes a lot different, more of a close knit game; we couldn't invite just anyone to play anymore, and had to be choosy about those that did.
Playing at someone's house is different in the fact that at a store almost everyone is acceptable, but we all have people we know we wouldn't want to bring around our houses, spouses, kids etc; and some have proven that they haven't been able to do that. I have few perfect examples:
- The guy who crushes on someone's girl at the table: inexcusable behavior, but it happens from time to time.
-The thief: not to be confused with the rogue, which although underpowered is a boon to any group; this guy would steal from people who would consider him a friend.
- The mooch: our group is very generous to each other and this could be taken advantage of by unscrupulous people. If someone doesn't have money for food, we will get them food, but it is usually a habit of abusiveness towards people in the form of taking advantage of generosity; people having smoking habits which they want others to support etc.
-The douchebag; along the lines of the sociopath friends I mentioned earlier, these guys take fantasy roleplay to dark areas of their psyche, they're usually very hard to get along with at the table as well; being rude, abusive, anti-social and superior in stance.
-The drama-queen: this person is always starting stuff, bad-mouthing people, making arguments, shifting blame, making it impossible to blow off steam which is what our gaming ritual is there for.
-The incompetent: generally this one is tolerable to us, we have one or two which we look at like our little brothers; but man they can be a pain in the hind-quarters, they don't read the material, they don't understand what's happening, usually have attention deficit and don't try hard to do better.
The thing to remember is that aside from the role playing element (which is central focus), game night is essentially sitting at a table and socializing, that is why people's character flaws come to the fore. If someone is hard to get along with under normal conditions it is amplified under intense social situations such as gaming. Even the most adjusted of us tend to let our problems show from time to time because gaming is time intensive and socially intense. I know more about the people I game with than any other friend, because it is such quality time spent gaming; we've been to hell and back, but that experience can be rained on by the wrong personalities at the table.
The reality that most often interferes with my theoretical enjoyment of any game is not unwilling players, it is a lack of players.
The reality of living next door to a corn field. The reality of finally getting one hit on MeetUp for gaming after setting the range to 50 miles, only to find out it's a card games group (and not Magic or YuGiOh either, bridge and rummy).
To be fair, there's a gaming society at the college I attend, but then comes the other reality: the reality of working 12 shifts all weekend, when both the gaming society meets, and when most college students tend not to have classes (and thus time for activities).
If it wasn't for occasional luck talking a friend of a friend into giving games a try, I doubt I'd game at all.
Yeah, in practice I've had a lot of mixed experiences with tabletop games in general. The players that are as dedicated as I am have been problematic and irritating to be around, and the ones who aren't, well, that problem's obvious.
I've got a pretty big audience on a Tumblr blog I put my writing on, so for my latest game I just recruited from my followers (mostly other writers), and threw people at the game until I got a group that stuck. I've been running the game for about nine months and I've probably been through ten players. Fortunately, most of the current six who play have been around since the beginning, but the crappy ones were boiled out in the agonizingly slow play by post crucible.
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I can only encourage anyone with gamer connectivity issues to check out roll20.net.
After I moved to the other side of the country recently I tried it and it's quickly grown on me to evolve from a crutch to keep things going to a in many regards next-level experience of tabletop gaming.
Oh absolutely. I don't know what I'd do without roll20.net now. I have a player in Australia, one in Alabama, another in New York, one in Texas, and one in Colorado. It's more than just a substitute for an actual tabletop. The tools it provides are incredible.
It's more than just a substitute for an actual tabletop. The tools it provides are incredible.
Two words: Dynamic Lighting.
Two more words: Love it.
Oh absolutely. I don't know what I'd do without roll20.net now. I have a player in Australia, one in Alabama, another in New York, one in Texas, and one in Colorado.I can only encourage anyone with gamer connectivity issues to check out roll20.net.
After I moved to the other side of the country recently I tried it and it's quickly grown on me to evolve from a crutch to keep things going to a in many regards next-level experience of tabletop gaming.
I use MapTool but my situation is much the same. I'm in Tennessee (though I'm moving to Georgia next week, only just across the border), but I have two players in Arizona, one in Kansas, one in California, one in Texas, one in Colorado, one somewhere in New England, and one in Alberta. Without it I wouldn't be able to play with people I've known for years.
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Scythia, are you open to online gaming via things like Maptools, Skype, etc? I've run some pretty successful campaigns with players from all over the world using that setup.
I'm a face-to-face purist.
For me, my favourite part of gaming is seeing my players respond to (and hopefully enjoy) the game I'm creating. It's not just gaming though, I also want to be there to see how someone reacts to food that I cooked, or a photograph I took. One of the joys of creativity is sharing it with others, which I prefer to do in person.
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Scythia, are you open to online gaming via things like Maptools, Skype, etc? I've run some pretty successful campaigns with players from all over the world using that setup.I'm a face-to-face purist.
For me, my favourite part of gaming is seeing my players respond to (and hopefully enjoy) the game I'm creating. It's not just gaming though, I also want to be there to see how someone reacts to food that I cooked, or a photograph I took. One of the joys of creativity is sharing it with others, which I prefer to do in person.
Although I agree with you wholeheartedly, I'm in an online game right now using TeamSpeak and Fantasy Grounds.
This group started this campaign (Kingmaker) as a face-to-face tabletop game as usual, but then people's schedules began to change meaning not everyone would turn up, leading to some sessions being cancelled at short notice. Then one of us moved away.
The truth is that we couldn't play anymore if we didn't use the computer. Face-to-face is better than playing over the Internet, but playing over the Internet is better than not playing at all.
The truth is that we couldn't play anymore if we didn't use the computer. Face-to-face is better than playing over the Internet, but playing over the Internet is better than not playing at all.
Same. It's been almost seven years since my entire group was in one place, and for various reason I never expect it to happen again. Theoretically I could take my chances trying to find a new local group, but given the option I'd much rather take gaming with the people I know I enjoy playing with via Maptool and Skype than trying to cobble together a group of strangers from the local area.
Scythia, are you open to online gaming via things like Maptools, Skype, etc? I've run some pretty successful campaigns with players from all over the world using that setup.I'm a face-to-face purist.
For me, my favourite part of gaming is seeing my players respond to (and hopefully enjoy) the game I'm creating. It's not just gaming though, I also want to be there to see how someone reacts to food that I cooked, or a photograph I took. One of the joys of creativity is sharing it with others, which I prefer to do in person.
Although I agree with you wholeheartedly, I'm in an online game right now using TeamSpeak and Fantasy Grounds.
This group started this campaign (Kingmaker) as a face-to-face tabletop game as usual, but then people's schedules began to change meaning not everyone would turn up, leading to some sessions being cancelled at short notice. Then one of us moved away.
The truth is that we couldn't play anymore if we didn't use the computer. Face-to-face is better than playing over the Internet, but playing over the Internet is better than not playing at all.
It's always a bother when schedules change, and that seems increasingly frequent as your group gets older. It's nice that this offered a way around that for you.
My feeling is the opposite, if face to face isn't possible, I'd prefer not to game at all.
if face to face isn't possible, I'd prefer not to game at all.
I'm the same way. I've tried it a couple of times but just didn't enjoy it (partly because of my Luddite ways). But I greatly prefer face to face for a variety of reasons. I've been invited to play in a roll20 5e game, and I agreed to give it a try. But that was 3 weeks ago and I've yet to hear a word from the guy who invited me.
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For me, my favourite part of gaming is seeing my players respond to (and hopefully enjoy) the game I'm creating. It's not just gaming though, I also want to be there to see how someone reacts to food that I cooked, or a photograph I took. One of the joys of creativity is sharing it with others, which I prefer to do in person.
I find I have no problem getting that response when using virtual tabletops, only that it takes on a different form.
When I yelled into my headset, "YOG-SOTHOTH" in my best bestial voice, the very quiet response of 'I think I just peed a little' was classic. Seeing the sidebar banter between characters in the chat window as I was describing the NPC argument was something that doesn't come across as well in person.
They are very different mediums, with their own strengths and weaknesses. I can use them both equally well.