The swashbuckler


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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Can someone explain to me what (outside of fort saves being bad) is actually the problem with this class?

It does have some issues with wielding it's iconic weapon but isn't a bad class.

Charisma to saves 3x day is often enough although it can't be used while parring.

The dex to damage feat encourages using the most powerful weapon (Falcata).

Free early Improved critical.

The ability to completely dump str since it effects nothing is good.

Overall I just don't understand the complains (Ok it should have good fort) other than that it isn't good at it's iconic rapier role.


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- Fort and Will saves are bad, and Charmed Life is a poor band-aid. There's no excuse for Charmed Life being what it is, while Divine Protection exists.
- Too many Swift and Immediate actions. It's not even that you have a choice of options: Use Charmed Life and it locks out next turn's Swift Action.
- Slashing Grace forgot to mention the Rapier, as well as Light weapons. Instead of fixing it with Errata, they're going to release another feat that affects Rapier only. In a different book.
- The Falcata is not the best weapon for a Swashbuckler, as 1 Panache is regained on a crit regardless of the crit multiplier.
- Many of the Deeds are lackluster, which is part of why people are saying the Daring Champion Cavalier is a better Swashbuckler.


If you dump (7 or 8) STR then you are going to have issues actually carrying your gear, also if you want to take power attack in order to have a reliable damage source outside of DEX you are going to need STR 13 becuase neither the rapier nor the weapons enabled by slashing grace can be used with piranha strike.

Other than that, the biggest issues with the class are that they joined the rouge in the "worst saves in the game" club, as you already mentioned. The other issue is that the class has so many things that require a swift action, this brings a number of problems:
1) they aren't suitalbe for mythic gameplay
2) you can't use any number of your mediocre niche abilities becuase you are saving your swift action either for parry or for charmed life
3) swashbuckler is a bad class for EK (and similar) builds, who want swift actions for other things like quickened spells and arcane strike.

Liberty's Edge

Yup, what they said. It's easy enough to fix with House Rules by making Charmed Life an actual good save enhancer, but it's deeply unsatisfying as-is.


lets not forget that Panache pools will probably be in the range of 2-3 MAX for a good chunk of the game unless you are doing something like a strength build that frees up feats for Extra Panache or get a FCB for 1/4th a point.


Torbyne wrote:
lets not forget that Panache pools will probably be in the range of 2-3 MAX for a good chunk of the game unless you are doing something like a strength build that frees up feats for Extra Panache or get a FCB for 1/4th a point.

What do you need more than 2 for?


leo1925 wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
lets not forget that Panache pools will probably be in the range of 2-3 MAX for a good chunk of the game unless you are doing something like a strength build that frees up feats for Extra Panache or get a FCB for 1/4th a point.
What do you need more than 2 for?

I want to use Parry and Reposte? I want to grab combat reflexes on a Daring Champion of the Flame and burn parries/AoO in place of the ever dropping AC.

Or that sometimes the die just hates you and its good to have some extra to burn for when the crits stop coming.


The Parry and Riposte problem is solved at 11th level by taking signature deed.

I didn't understand the thing about the ever dropping AC, maybe it has something to do with the daring champion archetype?

Burn panache for what? the only thing that really is worth burning panache for is the parry and riposte.


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leo1925 wrote:

The Parry and Riposte problem is solved at 11th level by taking signature deed.

I didn't understand the thing about the ever dropping AC, maybe it has something to do with the daring champion archetype?

Burn panache for what? the only thing that really is worth burning panache for is the parry and riposte.

And doubling your level to damage.


Well the rapier master archetype does add Int + Cha for your paunch pool.

But I could see where having every ability be a swift or interrupt could result in a less than satisfactory character.


Athaleon wrote:
- Fort and Will saves are bad, and Charmed Life is a poor band-aid. There's no excuse for Charmed Life being what it is, while Divine Protection exists.

Just a single note since charmed life isn't permanent or constant Divine Protection would stack if you had the right feats and prerequisites.


leo1925 wrote:

The Parry and Riposte problem is solved at 11th level by taking signature deed.

I didn't understand the thing about the ever dropping AC, maybe it has something to do with the daring champion archetype?

Burn panache for what? the only thing that really is worth burning panache for is the parry and riposte.

Yup, a daring champion of the flame loses 2 AC for every challenge in a fight.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

leo1925 wrote:

The Parry and Riposte problem is solved at 11th level by taking signature deed.

I didn't understand the thing about the ever dropping AC, maybe it has something to do with the daring champion archetype?

Burn panache for what? the only thing that really is worth burning panache for is the parry and riposte.

Order of the Flame is the current Cavalier splatbook fad that gives you basically unlimited challenges in exchange for defenestrating your AC.

Combined with the Daring Champion they want to use the ability to parry to negate the impact of that ability.

It's worth noting though, even that combo is really bad because Glorious Challenge also requires a swift action every round you need to re-activate it.


Undone wrote:
leo1925 wrote:

The Parry and Riposte problem is solved at 11th level by taking signature deed.

I didn't understand the thing about the ever dropping AC, maybe it has something to do with the daring champion archetype?

Burn panache for what? the only thing that really is worth burning panache for is the parry and riposte.

And doubling your level to damage.

First of all that is a bad ability since you get your level (again) bonus to damage only to one attack and not all your attacks of your full attack (in addition to the usual issues of precision damage), in addition this ability is a swift action which as we said is used either for riposte or is saved for activating charmed life because your saves suck.


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-Relies on Precision damage, which rogues can tell you shuts off in a stiff breeze. It doesn't have a formal definition, but chances are pretty good it shuts off vs
Elementals
invisibility
Oozes
Anyone with a miss chance from blur
Anyone standing in the dark
Fortification
invisibiliy

-Damage doesn't multiply on a crit.

-Despite being billed as a mobile fighter type doesn't have all that much mobility built into it.

- Charmed life and most of its tricks are almost unusable. Parry/riposte is so much better than anything else you're going to need to save your swift action for it.

-The current version cannot effectively wield some very iconic swashbuckler weapons: rapiers, daggers, but can wield morning stars, picks, lances?*, and a few other odd choices.

-After level 5 its a loong haul to anything worth sticking around for. Its a dip class.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Most of this has already been said but:

-Charmed Life is downright insulting considering what they gave Oracles
-Your saves suck, with your only good save arguably being the least necessary of the three
-Your action economy sucks: Too much important stuff relies on your swift action
-Precision damage based
-Not particularly mobile or tough.

Really the correct question isn't "What's wrong with the swashbuckler" but a question of "What does the Swashbuckler actually accomplish?".

Seriously what does the class do well? It's damage is decent, but not amazing. It's not a particularly good skillmonkey. It doesn't have a lot of utility. It can't deal with groups of enemies very well. It isn't very mobile. It's not particularly sturdy. It's not a debuffer or buffer.

What does the class do?


BigNorseWolf wrote:

-Relies on Precision damage, which rogues can tell you shuts off in a stiff breeze. It doesn't have a formal definition, but chances are pretty good it shuts off vs

Elementals
invisibility
Oozes
Anyone with a miss chance from blur
Anyone standing in the dark
Fortification
invisibiliy

-Damage doesn't multiply on a crit.

-Despite being billed as a mobile fighter type doesn't have all that much mobility built into it.

- Charmed life and most of its tricks are almost unusable. Parry/riposte is so much better than anything else you're going to need to save your swift action for it.

-The current version cannot effectively wield some very iconic swashbuckler weapons: rapiers, daggers, but can wield morning stars, picks, lances?*, and a few other odd choices.

-After level 5 its a long haul to anything worth sticking around for. Its a dip class.

Shadow Strike (APG) helps negate the precision damage problem, allowing it versus concealment (but not total concealment).

Regards,
DRS


Given everything else on the list its not worth the feat trying to make it work. Feats are supposed to expand your power and abilities, not just make them work right.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

-Relies on Precision damage, which rogues can tell you shuts off in a stiff breeze. It doesn't have a formal definition, but chances are pretty good it shuts off vs

Elementals
invisibility
Oozes
Anyone with a miss chance from blur
Anyone standing in the dark
Fortification
invisibiliy

You are correct it doesn't have a formal definition that being said.

Sneak attack specifics "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment." One could say, That doesn't make the creature is immune to sneak attack he simply can't be targeted with the ability.

Now if we take the above to be true.

Precise Strike says. "Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike," and that abilities that protect against critical hits work against precise strike. It never mentions concealment, and concealment never says you're immune to precision damage.

So one could read the rules to say that concealment has no effect on precise strike.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Given everything else on the list its not worth the feat trying to make it work. Feats are supposed to expand your power and abilities, not just make them work right.

I totally agree on this point.

Too bad feats are treated something like an Iphone game's microshop, especially for classes that need them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY9D606ANtc

Liberty's Edge

Lord Vukodlak wrote:

You are correct it doesn't have a formal definition that being said.

Sneak attack specifics "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment." One could say, That doesn't make the creature is immune to sneak attack he simply can't be targeted with the ability.

Now if we take the above to be true.

Precise Strike says. "Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike," and that abilities that protect against critical hits work against precise strike. It never mentions concealment, and concealment never says you're immune to precision damage.

So one could read the rules to say that concealment has no effect on precise strike.

Indeed, the rules are highly unclear on this point. I started a thread requesting a FAQ on this two months ago. Go FAQ the first post for a definitive answer! Hopefully they'll get to it soon now that the ACG is out...

It isn't enough to fix the Swashbuckler's issues, but it sure can't hurt.


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Most of the major issues have been covered by other people (saves, swift action bottleneck, lack of appealing deeds, nothing you can't honestly do better as a fighter).

Also problematic is that the most obvious and archetypical way to throw one together is honestly a series of traps-

The whole premise of the class is to provide a viable dex-based melee character with a lot of charisma. Light armor, free better-than-usual weapon finesse, and of course, fighting with a rapier and buckler.

So to start off, we have our stats. Seems like the best way to go should be something like Dex > Cha > Con > Int > Wis > Str or some such, right? Not really though. Honestly, it's the most MAD class there is. You need a fair deal of strength in order to carry a reasonable loadout of equipment without exceeding your light load limit (which you absolutely must avoid), might as well make it at least a 13 for power attack and the various feats chained off it. You are a frontliner with a bad fort save, so you need all the con you can get. Bad will too, without any real consolation prize a la bravery, so you can't neglect that. Int is nice to have conceptually, and hey, 4 skills, but you're going to wind up dumping it through the floor, particularly since you can sub it out for feat requirements. Charisma, if you aren't subbing it in to qualify for combat maneuver feats, is shockingly inessential. Sure, it gives you more panache, but the swift action bottleneck and recharge mechanic mean you only ever really benefit from 2 points. 1 to keep the passive abilities going, one you're going to spend on some swift action or other every time it's there (and your odds of getting it back each round are fantastic). Plus, hey, there's a minimum of 1 panache, and a feat for 2 more. Totally covered no matter how low you dump it. That leaves dexterity which... honestly you don't need. You're not using a bow, you're not casting haste before the party spreads out, and your reflex save is fine without it. All you actually NEED dex for (if you're cynical enough not to chase the premise on principle with a truckload of tax feats) is AC... and even then, all you really need is enough to hit the cap for a chain shirt. Your dodge bonus, and easy shield access handle the rest. Or you can just ignore it completely and count on parry/riposte to keep you safe. So if you're looking purely at optimization, Str > Con > Wis > Int = Cha > Dex. Maybe Con ahead of Str honestly.

Now let's look at your options for weapons. Rapiers are clearly promoted, there's that deed that lets you add your level to damage if you use one, right? Well no, that's not a bonus, it's an offset, and a lousy one. All that extra precision damage does is offset the damage you're losing by not using a two-handed weapon (or paired weapons), and it's not like any of the other class features prevent you from doing so. All you're doing is giving up a big chunk of your damage every time you crit, or fight something you can't crit, without any real benefit. Speaking of crits, they're how you recharge your panache, so you want as many as you can get, and you get more with paired weapons. So ideally, you want an 18+ crit weapon in each hand, or an 18+ and a 19+. Even just two 19+ will give you a faster panache turnover. And, again, more damage on crits/against critless. Plus there's some cheese where you still get the precision damage when you aren't full attacking built into the wording.

A high dex, lowish strength smart charming rake with nearly no armor should be the best way to throw a swashbuckler together, but in practice you're shown up by a big tough dumb lug in a chain shirt with two sawtoothed sabers. Or a member of any other martial type with the amateur swashbuckler feat. You don't really feel the difference until level 11 or so when you're missing out on that bleed option, but you also aren't dying to a single lucky hit from a ghoul or a wyvern before you get there. And then there's the archetypes for Magus and Cavalier in the mix.


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Does anyone know why the swashbuckler has poor Fort, anyway? Those were good saves for both its parent classes, so it seems especially odd that it would be a bad save.


Probably to compensate for how horribly overpowered it is because it's so amazingly good at everything else. *cough*

Of all the ACG classes, I was looking forward to the Swashbuckler the most. A Dex-based, lightly armored, highly mobile fighter with light weapons and good Charisma is so iconic it's scary. But the mechanics just didn't live up to that ideal.


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At level 11 bleed is a waste of time. You don't have time to bleed in high level rocket tag.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
FanaticRat wrote:
Does anyone know why the swashbuckler has poor Fort, anyway? Those were good saves for both its parent classes, so it seems especially odd that it would be a bad save.

Presumably because they figured Swashbuckler's are generally considered quick witted and quick on their feet rather than tough.

But then that leaves one wondering because iconic Swashbucklers are also headstrong, willful and daring... so if not fort, they should at least have a good will save.

I dunno, maybe someone at Paizo thinks Charmed Life is really good or something.


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Squiggit wrote:
FanaticRat wrote:
Does anyone know why the swashbuckler has poor Fort, anyway? Those were good saves for both its parent classes, so it seems especially odd that it would be a bad save.

Presumably because they figured Swashbuckler's are generally considered quick witted and quick on their feet rather than tough.

But then that leaves one wondering because iconic Swashbucklers are also headstrong, willful and daring... so if not fort, they should at least have a good will save.

I dunno, maybe someone at Paizo thinks Charmed Life is really good or something.

If charmed life was no action it would be really, really good.


FanaticRat wrote:
Does anyone know why the swashbuckler has poor Fort, anyway? Those were good saves for both its parent classes, so it seems especially odd that it would be a bad save.

Somehow gunslinger + fighter = low skill full BAB rogue.

Liberty's Edge

Undone wrote:
If charmed life was no action it would be really, really good.

Nah. It'd just be okay rather than bad.

Divine Grace is a thing for 2nd level Paladins, who have better Class Features than the Swashbuckler in most other areas, too. Why no Swashbuckler equivalent to that?


House rule Believer's Boon. Or hope for a FAQ that it counts as a domain. Boom, Swashbuckler is down to only needing DEX/CHA... and they are all cookie cutter copies of the same character with the same religion but hey, its a lot more surviveable.

Liberty's Edge

Torbyne wrote:
House rule Believer's Boon. Or hope for a FAQ that it counts as a domain. Boom, Swashbuckler is down to only needing DEX/CHA... and they are all cookie cutter copies of the same character with the same religion but hey, its a lot more surviveable.

If you're gonna House Rule, just make Charmed Life actually a really good class feature that legitimately boosts saves. That's what I'm doing.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Undone wrote:
If charmed life was no action it would be really, really good.

Nah. It'd just be okay rather than bad.

Divine Grace is a thing for 2nd level Paladins, who have better Class Features than the Swashbuckler in most other areas, too. Why no Swashbuckler equivalent to that?

I don't know, But my Dervish dancing CG kitsune swashbuckler is seriously considering some world view changes in order to go paladin. Fits in with the Taldor/Sovereign court metaplot thankfully...


People like to complain, that's the moral here. The swashbuckler looks like a fun class and I'm really looking forward to playing one! After all, the point is to have fun, right?


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Paulicus wrote:
People like to complain, that's the moral here. The swashbuckler looks like a fun class and I'm really looking forward to playing one! After all, the point is to have fun, right?

This is what i hear from some of the other underpowered classes. And then people play it , get discouraged, and have a lot less fun because their character is woefully ineffective at what they're supposed to be good at.

Its one thing to SAY that your swashbuckler is mobile, its another thing when you're... moving the exact same way anyone else is. Its one thing to say that you're a dex/charisma based character.. until you realize the most effective builds are drooling mouth breathers hulking with muscle.


Ssalarn wrote:


Order of the Flame is the current Cavalier splatbook fad that gives you basically unlimited challenges in exchange for defenestrating your AC.

Combined with the Daring Champion they want to use the ability to parry to negate the impact of that ability.

It's worth noting though, even that combo is really bad because Glorious Challenge also requires a swift action every round you need to re-activate it.

You do realize that parry has no action cost, right? Only riposte requires an immediate action. Daring Champion Order of the Flame Cavalier is anything but a fad.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Paulicus wrote:
People like to complain, that's the moral here. The swashbuckler looks like a fun class and I'm really looking forward to playing one! After all, the point is to have fun, right?

This is what i hear from some of the other underpowered classes. And then people play it , get discouraged, and have a lot less fun because their character is woefully ineffective at what they're supposed to be good at.

Its one thing to SAY that your swashbuckler is mobile, its another thing when you're... moving the exact same way anyone else is. Its one thing to say that you're a dex/charisma based character.. until you realize the most effective builds are drooling mouth breathers hulking with muscle.

And sometimes it isn't even just being 'most effective' but just being more effective than a warrior NPC or the like, as mechanics just don't work.


Parry costs an AoO and a penache.


I like the swashbuckler but Charmed Life really should have been like the Paladin's ability. But playing the new swashbuckler, and I like it. Mobility seems less "move and attack " and more positioning with dodge.


I snagged a level of dervish dancing bard For the dervish dancer feat, feather step and expeditious retreat. Those two have added a LOT of much needed mobility to the character.


I will say, to try to be positive, that the magic items for the swashbuckler are very good and flavorful. The plume of penache (once they get the wording un edited), reasonably priced bits of swashbucklers flair, and a few swirling capes look like a lot of fun and something to actually buy outside of the christmas tree.


FanaticRat wrote:
Does anyone know why the swashbuckler has poor Fort, anyway? Those were good saves for both its parent classes, so it seems especially odd that it would be a bad save.

Maybe it's because of the SWASHBUCKLER rogue Archetype. Or possibly the Duelist where most of the abilities for Class came from.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Stark_ wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:


Order of the Flame is the current Cavalier splatbook fad that gives you basically unlimited challenges in exchange for defenestrating your AC.

Combined with the Daring Champion they want to use the ability to parry to negate the impact of that ability.

It's worth noting though, even that combo is really bad because Glorious Challenge also requires a swift action every round you need to re-activate it.

You do realize that parry has no action cost, right? Only riposte requires an immediate action. Daring Champion Order of the Flame Cavalier is anything but a fad.

My point was that you still have no actions left to use any of your other swift abilities, which is pretty much everything else you get.

And yeah, it's a fad. It's a poorly written Cavalier order from a terrible splat book intended for a specific race combined with a decent archetype. Before Daring Champion it was Order of the Flame Sword Saints.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Undone wrote:
If charmed life was no action it would be really, really good.

Nah. It'd just be okay rather than bad.

Divine Grace is a thing for 2nd level Paladins, who have better Class Features than the Swashbuckler in most other areas, too. Why no Swashbuckler equivalent to that?

Not to mention a thing for Clerics, Oracles, and Inquisitors if they take a feat.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm not sure what's to hate so much about Order of the Flame, the bitter reaction seems overstated.

If you wanna talk about poor writing, how about making two Orders of the Beast? Tsk tsk.

Quote:
It's worth noting though, even that combo is really bad because Glorious Challenge also requires a swift action every round you need to re-activate it.

Wouldn't say really bad, since if you're killing enemies fast enough that that the aciton economy on glorious challenge is causing a serious problem then you're mercing enemies fast enough for it not to be a huge deal either. Probably not great really, but still.

Can't really comment on what would be good though since the only order I've ever played was cockatrice (once because I thought it was cool and once because I was playing a DSP Knightmare)


I'm trying to get some input to fix the class here. Any advice is welcome.

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