Is the Magus a better Swashbuckler then the Swashbuckler

[Caimbuel]

Flamboyant Arcana:the magus gains the derring-do and
opportune parry and riposte deeds from the swashbuckler's
list of deeds. The magus can spend points from his arcane
pool as panache points to use these deeds and any other deeds
he gains from the deed arcana.
This with the spontaneous magus archtype has possibilities. Not to happy with how the swashbuckler ended up, this seems better, but it does use spells.

[Deadmanwalking]

Check the Daring Champion Cavalier archetype instead. That really does do a better Swashbuckler than most Swashbucklers, and without spells.

[Lemmy]

Yeah... It really isn't very difficult to "outswashbuckler" the Swashbuckler. The class is a mess.

I'd take a Bard, Magus, Inquisitor, Slayer, Ranger, Urban Barbarian or Daring Champion Cavalier with Dervish Dance over a Swashbuckler any day of the week and twice on sunday.

[Anzyr]

Dawnflower Dervish Bard (or Archaeologist Bard) also works if you interpret "Battle Dance" as "Buckling Swashes".

[DRS3]

Yeah, I could see most magi spending their 3rd level arcana on Flamboyant, and their 3rd level feat on Extra Arcana: Arcane Deed: Precise Strike. They will have to pick up shadow strike at some point to negate concealment but + your level in damage is going to be really hard to pass up.

Bonus points a lot of those deeds don't switch off based on armor (Evasion probably would), so Heavy Armor Str Magus using Rapier might become interesting. Heck you could even go Intimidating Prowess and Bruising Intellect + Menacing Swordplay as a way to get people shaken during your Spell combat, Spell strike, then finish off with the cast. Even better you could still be a Hexcrafter and get some of those goodies as well.

Almost makes me want to go make a build.

Regards,
DRS

[Zhayne]

Anything with spells > anything without spells, with rare exception.

BTW, marginally on-topic, what is the spont. magus called?

[The Pale King]

Wait, the ACG adds a spontaneous Magus? How didn't I notice that?

[SteelDraco]

Yeah, it does, but it's not great (you lose spell recall and have to spend arcana to use a bloodrager-esque "eldritch focus" ability to use spell combat).

I was hoping for an archetype as simple as "bard spells per day/known progression, class abilities and spells use Cha, not Int". It's more complicated than that, and a bit of a pain in the rear. I'd have been happy without spell recall, but with a minor bloodline ability. The eldritch focus thing really shot the archetype in the foot.

[Deadmanwalking]

It does give you all the Bloodline stuff of a Bloodrager of your level, though. So there's that.

And at 8th level you can use Spell Combat freely.

[Zhayne]

SteelDraco wrote:

Yeah, it does, but it's not great (you lose spell recall and have to spend arcana to use a bloodrager-esque "eldritch focus" ability to use spell combat).

I was hoping for an archetype as simple as "bard spells per day/known progression, class abilities and spells use Cha, not Int". It's more complicated than that, and a bit of a pain in the rear. I'd have been happy without spell recall, but with a minor bloodline ability. The eldritch focus thing really shot the archetype in the foot.

Check out the Cabalist 3pp archetype on the OGC site. Basically does this.

[DRS3]

Also as a Cha based class Eldritch Heritage is a possibility.

Regards,
DRS

[Dead Phoenix]

This goes into some RAI vs RAW crap, but I don't think your Magus levels count as swashbuckler levels for anything other then meeting the requirements, which would make precise strike add 0 damage. There's also the fact you can't regain arcane pool points like a swash regains panache, but I can't say I've spent enough time with either class to know how much of an issue this might be though(though if you are just getting 0 point cost deeds, just don't spend all your points).

[Anzyr]

DRS3 wrote:

Also as a Cha based class Eldritch Heritage is a possibility.

Regards,
DRS

And CHA to all saves, with an appropriate dip (or the right race)! And of course don't forget to worship Arshea so you can add your CHA to AC. (Or dip Oracle for nature/lore/lunar mystery, but you should have a good Dex. I mean Noble Scion is a thing to but...)

[Phoebus Alexandros]

Thing about a Magus "swashbuckler" is you're using Arcana to fuel those deeds. A Swashbuckler can restore her Panache throughout the day by doing appropriate things. Have I missed something crucial? Can the Magus restore his Arcana pool?

[LazarX]

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

Thing about a Magus "swashbuckler" is you're using Arcana to fuel those deeds. A Swashbuckler can restore her Panache throughout the day by doing appropriate things. Have I missed something crucial? Can the Magus restore his Arcana pool?

For 99 percent of Magi, the answer is no. The few exceptions are 19th level Bladebound magi. and munchkins with way root.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

No he can't, but his Arcana pool tends to start out higher.

[Phoebus Alexandros]

Not that high, brother. At least, not in my estimation. And not for what we're talking about.

[Ipslore the Red]

LazarX wrote:

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

Thing about a Magus "swashbuckler" is you're using Arcana to fuel those deeds. A Swashbuckler can restore her Panache throughout the day by doing appropriate things. Have I missed something crucial? Can the Magus restore his Arcana pool?

For 99 percent of Magi, the answer is no. The few exceptions are 19th level Bladebound magi. and munchkins with way root.

I don't see how using wyroot for its intended purpose is munchkinning. Can someone elaborate?

[Anzyr]

Ipslore the Red wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

Thing about a Magus "swashbuckler" is you're using Arcana to fuel those deeds. A Swashbuckler can restore her Panache throughout the day by doing appropriate things. Have I missed something crucial? Can the Magus restore his Arcana pool?

For 99 percent of Magi, the answer is no. The few exceptions are 19th level Bladebound magi. and munchkins with way root.

I don't see how using wyroot for its intended purpose is munchkinning. Can someone elaborate?

Using things that give you an advantage the GM might not anticipate is being a dirty no good munchkin theorycrafter. Everyone knows that.

/sarcasm.

[LoneKnave]

You could grab amateur swashbuckler feat I think, because you don't actually get the panache class feature. That'd get you a rechargable panache pool, if you want it.

[KutuluKultist]

Terbutje!

[Caimbuel]

Ok, I will address a few things in my OP I did not.
1. No matter what a front liner with bad fort and will is bad, and gimmicky things don't make up for it.
2. I find the swashbuckler to be a very clunky class that has issues, were as the magus does what it is supposed to very well, and giving it a way to be more dashing is easy and hurts the magus not at all.
3. The Eldritch Scion does have its drawbacks, but for a swashbuckler I think most would agree he was a charismatic guy, and this is it, and the bloodrage does not confer the rage, just the level dependant powers from that bloodrage bloodline. Having options for reach, arcanes buffs and anti caster, or any of the other bloodlines when ya want is nice.

[Artanthos]

Ipslore the Red wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

Thing about a Magus "swashbuckler" is you're using Arcana to fuel those deeds. A Swashbuckler can restore her Panache throughout the day by doing appropriate things. Have I missed something crucial? Can the Magus restore his Arcana pool?

For 99 percent of Magi, the answer is no. The few exceptions are 19th level Bladebound magi. and munchkins with way root.

I don't see how using wyroot for its intended purpose is munchkinning. Can someone elaborate?

Muchkins are the ones that pick up a wyroot club and a bag of rats.

Slightly less munchkin, they coup de grace everything after every fight.

[Artanthos]

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

Thing about a Magus "swashbuckler" is you're using Arcana to fuel those deeds. A Swashbuckler can restore her Panache throughout the day by doing appropriate things. Have I missed something crucial? Can the Magus restore his Arcana pool?

The big deed everyone is eyeing is Precise Strike, which is continuous as long as you have 1 point in your arcane pool.

[Diego Rossi]

Ipslore the Red wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

Thing about a Magus "swashbuckler" is you're using Arcana to fuel those deeds. A Swashbuckler can restore her Panache throughout the day by doing appropriate things. Have I missed something crucial? Can the Magus restore his Arcana pool?

For 99 percent of Magi, the answer is no. The few exceptions are 19th level Bladebound magi. and munchkins with way root.

I don't see how using wyroot for its intended purpose is munchkinning. Can someone elaborate?

The problem with wyroot is a badly thought out item. It is better than the capstone ability of the black blade and only cost a few thousand gp.

[LazarX]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Ipslore the Red wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

Thing about a Magus "swashbuckler" is you're using Arcana to fuel those deeds. A Swashbuckler can restore her Panache throughout the day by doing appropriate things. Have I missed something crucial? Can the Magus restore his Arcana pool?

For 99 percent of Magi, the answer is no. The few exceptions are 19th level Bladebound magi. and munchkins with way root.

I don't see how using wyroot for its intended purpose is munchkinning. Can someone elaborate?

The problem with wyroot is a badly thought out item. It is better than the capstone ability of the black blade and only cost a few thousand gp.

That and the bag of rats exploit noted above. The black blade at least requires you to end someone that's a significant threat to you hit dice wise.

[Saving Cap'n Crunch]

Which books are the following thingies from?

1) All of these magus deed-like arcanas mentioned
2) The spontaneous magus (I think someone said ACG)
3) Some people were talking about the importance of CHA. Is it just the obvious with using swashbuckler deeds through feats/arcana, or did someone at Paizo make a CHA-based magus archetype (presumably in the ACG, but I don't think it exists, unfortunately)?

[Scythia]

Theodore Berman wrote:

Which books are the following thingies from?

1) All of these magus deed-like arcanas mentioned
2) The spontaneous magus (I think someone said ACG)
3) Some people were talking about the importance of CHA. Is it just the obvious with using swashbuckler deeds through feats/arcana, or did someone at Paizo make a CHA-based magus archetype (presumably in the ACG, but I don't think it exists, unfortunately)?

These are all from the Advanced Class Guide.

The spontaneous Magus archetype is the Eldritch Scion, and like the vast majority of spontaneous casters, they are CHA based.

[Artanthos]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Check the Daring Champion Cavalier archetype instead. That really does do a better Swashbuckler than most Swashbucklers, and without spells.

There are questions if the Precise Strike deed does anything at all for either Magus or Daring Cavalier.

Strictly RAW, Precise Strike only counts Swashbuckler levels. RAI, it is obviously intended to work, at least for the cavalier.

[kestral287]

Eldritch Scion is a spontaneous Magus that uses Cha for everything instead of Int, to answer those two.

[swoosh]

Artanthos wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Check the Daring Champion Cavalier archetype instead. That really does do a better Swashbuckler than most Swashbucklers, and without spells.

There are questions if the Precise Strike deed does anything at all for either Magus or Daring Cavalier.

Strictly RAW, Precise Strike only counts Swashbuckler levels. RAI, it is obviously intended to work, at least for the cavalier.

Unrelated, this has issues for a few other similar archetypes like Mutation Warrior (who has abilities that have alchemist level/minutes duration).

There were a few people claiming that the rule is that archetypes that have class features that "function as" another class' replace the instances of the latter class' with their own for stuff like that, but I haven't been able to find a definitive source.