Martial Yoga Session (Martial Flexibility Thread)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Seeing as we've all got so much martial flexibility now, I figured it might be fun to have a thread devoted to shenanigans, observations, builds, and other things that can be done with the Brawler's ability or the Barroom Brawler feat. Also, for posterity, if this works having a grouping of things for people to look up if they need help figuring out what they're going to do with all that feat access would be nice.

If you can, try to keep it core. If you don't, let us know where the abilities come from.

I'll start with something super simple and straightforward: style feats! Picking up some prereqs for style chains using normal feats gained at odd levels and the bonus feats the Brawler gets lets you use Martial Flexibility to swap between multiple styles depending on the encounter. Since we're so flexible, we can have five or six styles ready to go at level 6, and even usually have our second feat slot unfilled for things like Blind-Fight or Dodge.

Contributor

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My favorite combo involves several archetype combinations: Lore Warden (Fighter) and Martial Master (Fighter).

Lore Warden is best known for giving Combat Expertise and a scaling bonus on combat maneuver checks to the player for free. It does not replace Weapon Training or Weapon Mastery, which Martial Master does.

In effect, you can spend all of your fighter bonuses feats on whatever you want and use your "free feats" from Martial Flexibility in order to pick up whatever Combat Maneuver feats you happen to want. This works for nearly all of the combat maneuvers, with the exception of Bull Rush and Grapple. Grapple is a bit harder, since you'll have to take a feat that no one really wants to take (Improved Unarmed Strike) to use it initially but Improved Bull Rush requires Power Attack, which you were probably going to take anyway.

That way, there's no complaining that Improved / Greater Trip aren't always useful. Now you have them whenever you want them. Never more often.

Shadow Lodge

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I've been thinking of making a guide to this at some point. Still, here's a list of good situational feats to apply, followed by one of good feats that work in almost any situation.

List1:
  • Blind-Fight
  • Intimidating Prowess
  • Combat Expertise
  • Improved Trip
  • Improved Dirty Trick
  • Improved Grapple
  • Improved Sunder
  • Greater[any combat maneuver listed above]
  • Flanking Foil
  • Combat Reflexes
  • Stand Still
  • Disruptive
  • SpellBreaker
  • Mobility
  • Martial Weapon Proficiency Longbow
  • Point-Blank Shot
  • Precise Shot
  • Cleave
  • Great Cleave

I limited the combat maneuvers because these will be the ones with the strongest impact for your action.
List2:
  • Enforcer
  • Weapon Focus
  • Weapon Specialization
  • Pummeling Style
  • Pummeling Charge
  • Greater Weapon Focus
  • Greater Weapon Specialization
  • Penetrating Strike
  • Greater Penetrating Strike
  • Power Attack
  • Quick Draw
Quick draw is in there in case you use weapons, because from 6th level on, depending on the wording, you might be able to spend the first round burning a swift and free action to get your weapon out, move up, then spend another swift action to change your feat.
Variable Wording in question wrote:
The brawler can use this ability again before the duration expires in order to replace the previous combat feat with another choice.

All feats listed can be found in the PRD.

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I actually started listing stuff here but the threat didn't go anywhere:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdr3?Optimizing-the-Brawler

Here's what I had so far:

-Maneuvers as appropriate
--Power Attack for added damage when you aren't worried about missing?
--Deflect arrows vs archers, and Missile Shield too if there are a LOT of arrows coming your way
--Enforcer when you are hitting people non-lethally
-- Step Up when you've got something that's going to shift away on you, like a caster
--Desperate Battler when fighting solo
-- Demon Hunter for fighting demons, only requires an investment in knowledge religion
--Normally I would include all the different style feats here, but man if Pummeling Style doesn't just seem better than them.
-- Felling Escape when you are about to break a grapple
--Firebrand when you've got a torch and something flamable gets up in your grill!
--Gang up for when you just can't quite get that flank.
--Spring attack
-- Lunge
-- Combat Patrol
--Ki throws are kewl
--Vicious stomp when you are someone who loves tripping


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Actually, glancing at the ACG and I am seeing some really interesting options.

--Battle Cry for giving a temporary boost and reroll on saves to all your ally, if you have the Charisma. (Admittedly a lot of Brawlers won't have charisma.)
--Stunning Fist won't have a great DC, but since you only have it for one minute to you can include one in every attach that round. And there are bunch of similar feats in there
--Elemental Fist for some added damage


Dotting


I like stacking the Martial Master with Dawnflower Dervish; you have a very mobile, Full-Attacking, versitle Fighter with that.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
EvilPaladin wrote:
I've been thinking of making a guide to this at some point. Still, here's a list of good situational feats to apply, followed by one of good feats that work in almost any situation.** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **All feats listed can be found in the PRD.

You know, I think that Enforcer and Pummeling Charge should be on list one. Enforcer is good, but there are going to be tons of situations where just dealing lethal is more effective (such as anything immune to non-lethal or fear, enemies that you can quickly dispatch with a few blows, or when your allies are already pouring on the damage.) And while there will be plenty of combats where you want to open with a charge, it's often times going to only really happen turn 1, and even then there are tons of things that can prevent it. Unless you MMoS dip for Dragon Style, and even then you still need an avenue without interruptions. Both seem like perfect "go to" options for flexibility.


Now, it does seem to behoove the Brawler to make sure they actually have a good Intelligence score. A lot of feats and feat chains require investments into skills before you can actually get ahold of them, so having more skill points isn't a bad idea. Humans will probably have the easiest time being versatile. The biggest things that you'll want to watch for in terms of skill requirements are style feats, because these can be good ways to make your unarmed fighting stronger but are a little esoteric in their requirements sometimes. I'll go ahead and list which ones need which:

Boar Style: Intimidate
Dragon Style: Acrobatics
Earth Child: Acrobatics
Janni Style: Perform (dance)
Kirin Style: Knowledge (dungeoneering, local, nature, planes, or religion)
Mantis Style: Heal
Monkey Style: Acrobatics, Climb
Snake Style: Sense Motive

Now, most Brawlers won't want to do every style, but this'll help you figure out if you need a specific skill before you head out into the world and find your Martial Yoga just doesn't quite get you into that mantis position...

Something that can be pretty neat is coordinating with your party Inquisitors, Hunters, Cavaliers, etc. and their teamwork feats. Not every teamwork feat is [Combat], which is a bummer for Stealth Synergy, but Tandem Trip or Paired Opportunists can be fun, and Broken Wing Gambit (requires Bluff!) can be cool with Snake or Crane Style.

Also, Brawlers can potentially be built as switch-hitters a bit like Rangers, in the sense that they can invest their normal feats into melee combat and then use their ability to pick up ranged combat feats as they see fit, or just use the pool to specialize their unarmed for a specific encounter. Because of proficiency, Brawlers don't have access to bows by default, but an elf or half-elf can get around this with racial abilities (half-elves go for Ancestral Arms alternate). Elves can also pick up Elven Accuracy if they're fighting guys taking cover frequently. Crossbows aren't bad in a pinch if you're another race, because you can pick up Rapid Reload. Just not as efficient. At 6th and higher a Brawler who finds herself using a ranged attack on enemies who are closing in can also take Opening Volley to get a bonus when melee begins.

Lastly here is that Brawlers can pick up weapon proficiency feats with Flexibility. With a lot of uses, you might as well have proficiency in the weapon as far as combat is concerned, and for those who are interested at home a Brawler can pick up proficiency in firearms on the fly, and even grab Amateur Gunslinger for deeds because it's a combat feat. Not terribly efficient, but outside of a party Gunslinger the Brawler is really the only one who'd feasibly be able to use a firearm that the party might loot off of an enemy or find.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So here's the thing with styles... it seems to me that the massive crit potential of Pummeling just makes any other style kind of moot. Do you guys disagree with that?


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Captain Morgan wrote:
So here's the thing with styles... it seems to me that the massive crit potential of Pummeling just makes any other style kind of moot. Do you guys disagree with that?

Yes, because there are infinite ways to play this game that aren't optimizing one feat chain.


Also I'm sure Pummeling Style was written like crapola and will get errata to oblivion.

Also, a few combos:

- Blind-fight, Combat Expertise, Moonlight Stalker (requires 3 Bluff, low-light vision or better, 13 Int): Fighting in absolute darkness? Turn that into an advantage for yourself!
- Endurance, Drunken Brawler (requires worshipping a good deity): +HP equal to character level and +2 to Fort and Will, -2 to Reflex. Could be useful!
- Saving Shield, Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes (requires 13 Dex, BAB +6, wearing a shield): Keep that guy alive!!


Well, it's pretty explicit on pg. 140 that it's to

Advanced Class Guide... wrote:
Pool all unarmed strikes into a single powerful blow

so that's what I'm going with on it. Also, there are a bunch of comments and threads for discussing Pummeling and its various English-deficiencies, so if we can not diverge into that territory that'd be grreeeaaaat. I'd like to keep this one focused primarily on what you can do with Martial Flexibility, not that doing anything but Pummeling Style is dewinitrong.

At any rate, yes. For people who aren't aware, Pummeling Style is good and something you can take on your Brawler, though it seems better to pick up as part of normal feat progression and/or bonus feats, so I'd recommend going that route rather than using all of your Flexibility uses to grab it.


I added a few combos.


Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Power Attack and Dodge should be the first four feats for a Brawler focusng on Martial Flexibility, with one or more picks of Extra Martial Training and Weapon Focus with a favored weapon or two, probably Unarmed Strike, and Critical Focus at 9. Since they gain Improved Unarmed Strike from class this allows them to pick nearly any combat feat chain possible.

Also, Endurance is not a combat feat, so you can't take it with Martial Flexibility. If you want to use combos like that you would have to spend a feat on Endurance. Diehard isn't a combat feat either so you can't grab it when necessary even if you take Endurance.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Puna'chong wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
So here's the thing with styles... it seems to me that the massive crit potential of Pummeling just makes any other style kind of moot. Do you guys disagree with that?
Yes, because there are infinite ways to play this game that aren't optimizing one feat chain.

Fair point. But what contexts would you pick use the other styles for? The best I can come up with is using Dragon Style for charging through difficult terrain. Crane would be useful if you were trying to go purely on the defense (maybe so you could talk someone attacking you down?)

Monkey can be used if someone is just tripping you over and over again... but ranks in climb are lame.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
So here's the thing with styles... it seems to me that the massive crit potential of Pummeling just makes any other style kind of moot. Do you guys disagree with that?
Yes, because there are infinite ways to play this game that aren't optimizing one feat chain.

Fair point. But what contexts would you pick use the other styles for? The best I can come up with is using Dragon Style for charging through difficult terrain. Crane would be useful if you were trying to go purely on the defense (maybe so you could talk someone attacking you down?)

Monkey can be used if someone is just tripping you over and over again... but ranks in climb are lame.

.

Perhaps actually adding suggestions for this Martial Yoga would suit your time better than, unintentionally or not, attempting to derail the thread into a VS of Pummeling against other styles?

That said.

Enemy Spellcaster gotcha down? Need to prevent a guard from screaming? Improved Grapple + Choke Hold (required BAB 6 or Monk lvl 5), grab him and make sure nobody can hear him ever again!

Actually, anything in the grapple chain seems to become fantastic with a Brawler...

Wanders off to go build a grappling brawler...


Add Sleeper Hold to that!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Artemis Moonstar wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
So here's the thing with styles... it seems to me that the massive crit potential of Pummeling just makes any other style kind of moot. Do you guys disagree with that?
Yes, because there are infinite ways to play this game that aren't optimizing one feat chain.

Fair point. But what contexts would you pick use the other styles for? The best I can come up with is using Dragon Style for charging through difficult terrain. Crane would be useful if you were trying to go purely on the defense (maybe so you could talk someone attacking you down?)

Monkey can be used if someone is just tripping you over and over again... but ranks in climb are lame.

.

Perhaps actually adding suggestions for this Martial Yoga would suit your time better than, unintentionally or not, attempting to derail the thread into a VS of Pummeling against other styles?

That said.

Enemy Spellcaster gotcha down? Need to prevent a guard from screaming? Improved Grapple + Choke Hold (required BAB 6 or Monk lvl 5), grab him and make sure nobody can hear him ever again!

Actually, anything in the grapple chain seems to become fantastic with a Brawler...

Wanders off to go build a grappling brawler...

Cool your jets dude. I was actually asking for scenarios where those styles would come in handy, and wrote a few suggestions myself. Just listing a bunch of styles isn't helpful if you don't know when to actually use them. I'm honestly looking for input in the spirit of the thread, and have posted a large number of examples, so I dunno why you guys seem so aggressive here.

Anyway, Chokehold is a good suggestion. Pin down seems like it could come in handy as well.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Artemis Moonstar wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
So here's the thing with styles... it seems to me that the massive crit potential of Pummeling just makes any other style kind of moot. Do you guys disagree with that?
Yes, because there are infinite ways to play this game that aren't optimizing one feat chain.

Fair point. But what contexts would you pick use the other styles for? The best I can come up with is using Dragon Style for charging through difficult terrain. Crane would be useful if you were trying to go purely on the defense (maybe so you could talk someone attacking you down?)

Monkey can be used if someone is just tripping you over and over again... but ranks in climb are lame.

.

Perhaps actually adding suggestions for this Martial Yoga would suit your time better than, unintentionally or not, attempting to derail the thread into a VS of Pummeling against other styles?

That said.

Enemy Spellcaster gotcha down? Need to prevent a guard from screaming? Improved Grapple + Choke Hold (required BAB 6 or Monk lvl 5), grab him and make sure nobody can hear him ever again!

Actually, anything in the grapple chain seems to become fantastic with a Brawler...

Wanders off to go build a grappling brawler...

Cool your jets dude. I was actually asking for scenarios where those styles would come in handy, and wrote a few suggestions myself. Just listing a bunch of styles isn't helpful if you don't know when to actually use them. I'm honestly looking for input in the spirit of the thread, and have posted a large number of examples, so I dunno why you guys seem so aggressive here.

Anyway, Chokehold is a good suggestion. Pin down seems like it could come in handy as well.

No worries. Sry if I came off harsh, been seeing nothing but pretty purposeful thread derailments for otherwise helpful threads lately (Paizo and elsewhere). Had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and failed my will save, lol.

That said... The following would be for a Strangler archetyped Brawler, but slap Sap Master and Sap Adept onto yourself. Decide to deal non-lethal, and you're doubling your Sneak Attack damage while choking the life out of them.


I posted a bunch of these at my Lore Warden vs Brawler thread.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Artemis Moonstar wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Artemis Moonstar wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
So here's the thing with styles... it seems to me that the massive crit potential of Pummeling just makes any other style kind of moot. Do you guys disagree with that?
Yes, because there are infinite ways to play this game that aren't optimizing one feat chain.

Fair point. But what contexts would you pick use the other styles for? The best I can come up with is using Dragon Style for charging through difficult terrain. Crane would be useful if you were trying to go purely on the defense (maybe so you could talk someone attacking you down?)

Monkey can be used if someone is just tripping you over and over again... but ranks in climb are lame.

.

Perhaps actually adding suggestions for this Martial Yoga would suit your time better than, unintentionally or not, attempting to derail the thread into a VS of Pummeling against other styles?

That said.

Enemy Spellcaster gotcha down? Need to prevent a guard from screaming? Improved Grapple + Choke Hold (required BAB 6 or Monk lvl 5), grab him and make sure nobody can hear him ever again!

Actually, anything in the grapple chain seems to become fantastic with a Brawler...

Wanders off to go build a grappling brawler...

Cool your jets dude. I was actually asking for scenarios where those styles would come in handy, and wrote a few suggestions myself. Just listing a bunch of styles isn't helpful if you don't know when to actually use them. I'm honestly looking for input in the spirit of the thread, and have posted a large number of examples, so I dunno why you guys seem so aggressive here.

Anyway, Chokehold is a good suggestion. Pin down seems like it could come in handy as well.

No worries. Sry if I came off harsh, been seeing nothing but pretty purposeful thread derailments for otherwise helpful threads lately (Paizo and elsewhere). Had a bit of a...

Ok, cool, no harm no foul.

Ray Shield is pretty rad. It's a shame that you have to get through disruptive and spell breaker to get it. Neither seem like the best way to shut down a Caster to me.

You could potentially use a stunning fist, elemental fist, and punishing kick all in the same flurry.


It's hard to go over each and every style feat and their uses. Honestly, just reading through the chains is the most concise way for a player to get a handle on them and their uses. I do think that combining Boar Style and Jabbing Style looks like it'd be fun, though, and after a bit of thought Dwarves actually look like they're really well situated for the Brawler class. They've got really good bonuses for a Monk MoMS dip, too, and though I generally dislike class dips for features this one is really helpful for the character concept.

-- +2 Con and Wis, -2 Cha is basically what you want. That Con bonus means you spend less points for decent HP, and if you completely dump Cha you have lots of points left over for a 12 Int.

-- Some martial weapon proficiencies, which further increase your flexibility and let you have some decent, not-simple weapons to use. Picks are fun if you start grabbing Improved Critical on the fly.

-- Relentless swaps out +4 CMD for +2 CMB on relevant things (you'll have improved everything anyways, so more CMD doesn't do much for you)

-- Ability to take the Earth Child Style line, which overcomes certain limitations on trip and grapple when you fight giants.

-- Never lose mobility if you decide you want to move into heavier armors.

-- Bonuses on saves against relevant things

-- Darkvision is always relevant

-- They get to use boulder helmets.

Along with what VM Mercenario is saying above, I'd think about Improved Grapple as the level 1 feat. A lot of things rely on it and not letting opponents get AoO on you when you grapple is helpful. Also, for anyone who wants to go with as many styles as they can get, here's sort of what you need (barring the elemental-themed styles, which need elemental fist):

Brawler 2/MoMS 1

This gets you Brawler's Flurry, 1 free combat feat (I'm partial to grabbing Dodge, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, or a style that fits the weird restriction), one free style (I like Dragon Style because it helps at all levels), a feat leftover for whatever you want (take advantage of MoMS though, and grab a style!), +2 BAB, Stunning Fist, yoga, and then around 14-17 skill points. I'd recommend these skills go in primarily these spots to maximize style potential: Acrobatics, Heal (srsly though, lots of things rely on this), Sense Motive, Intimidate, Climb, and then Perception because everyone is contractually obliged to take it.

So my 20 point buy Dwarf Brawler/Monk at level 3 has this going for him:

Spoiler:

Unnamed Hero
Dwarf Brawler 2/Monk (Master of Many Styles) 1 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 0)
LG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Hero Points 1
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +2 untyped)
hp 31 (2d10+1d8+3)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +4; +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training (+4 dodge bonus to AC vs. giants)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +5 (1d6+3)
Special Attacks brawler's flurry, +1 on attack rolls against goblinoid and orc humanoids, relentless, stunning fist (4/day, DC 13)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 5
Base Atk +2; CMB +5 (+7 grapple); CMD 19 (19 vs. bull rush, 21 vs. grapple)
Feats Dragon Style[UC], Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mantis Style[UC], Snake Style[UC], Stunning Fist
Skills Acrobatics +8, Appraise +1 (+3 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Climb +8, Heal +5, Intimidate +3, Perception +8 (+10 to notice unusual stonework), Sense Motive +10
Languages Custom Language, Common, Dwarven
SQ fuse style, hero points, martial flexibility, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike
Other Gear 150 gp
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Martial Flexibility (Move action, 4/day) (Ex) - 0/4
Stunning Fist (4/day, DC 13) - 0/4
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Brawler's Flurry +0/+0 (Ex) Can make full attack & gain two-wep fighting, but only with unarmed strike, close, or monk wep.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Mantis Style Gain +1 use of Stunning Fist per day, and increase stunning fist DC by +2
Martial Flexibility (Move action, 4/day) (Ex) As a Move action, gain a combat feat for 1 min. More gained for greater actions.
Relentless +2 Gain CMB bonus to bull rush/overrun while both self and foe stand on ground.
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (4/day, DC 13) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) Can apply different conditions when using stunning fist feat.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) Extra unarmed strike dam, no off-hand dam reduction and don't need free hands to att.

I took Snake, Dragon, and Mantis style as my bonus feats n' such because they're consistently useful and do fun things even at early levels. They also lend themselves well to other things like Stunning Pin, Jawbreaker, Pummeling Style, Crane, etc. etc. that are more situational but useful in their own ways.


honestly so long as a brawler uses unarmed strikes and not close weapons i cant imagine not doing a 2 level moms dip.

power gamey? maybe

not necessarily bad roleplay tho.

pummeling+dragon style+power attack=all the damage your gonna need.

wich with 2 level moms dip is 5 feats total


Yeah, I'd recommend dipping into MoMS twice as well if you really want to push styles, but it seems to me that B1/M1/B2/M2 is the best way to do it. Sure, you give up that second style feat at 3rd if you go B1/M1/M2/B2, but other than that and getting evasion (which is aight), you're missing out on getting Brawler's Flurry at 3rd. Also, brawlers get a bonus feat at 2nd anyways, so you're still getting two feats at 3rd level this way, just not a style feat that skips prereqs. You'd want to save your acquisition of Pummeling until you can actually use it, anyways, and you don't give up any BAB or anything by going Brawler as your third level. Brawler's also got a better HD, which is most noticeable in the early stages of the game, and you'll also get your favored class bonus (unless you're half-elf, in which case do your thing) at 3rd which can be beneficial.

But yeah, Brawler + Monk of Many Styles is well on its way to doing unarmed stuff at 4th level. Lots of customization.

Incidentally, Brawlers are also pretty impressive with those weird exotic monk weapons like the double-chained kama. This sort of requires you to be a Tien or Vudrani half-elf (for flavors and also for Ancestral Arms), or a human for the proficiency feat, but then after that and your first feat being Combat Expertise to pay the taxman, you can use your yoga to be good at any of the weapon's modes: trip, disarm, reach, double, etc. Grab Combat Reflexes in reach mode and you can slap around dudes as they approach (free action to not have reach, too, I think... These are complicated), or use flurry and Improved Trip, Disarm, or both at level 6 to knock guys down and take their weapons at range. If you aren't into the whole taking-TWF-as-a-feat thing, you can just stick with it being basically a normal weapon and strike the yoga stance to suddenly be good at using it two-handed.

Huh. Yeah. That's kinda fun. Seems the Brawler can handily beat the monk at monk weaponing provided they can find the proficiency, because using all modes of the weapons usually requires heavy feat investment.


that is fun tho i have a weird obsession with punching dragons with my fists.

you could "use" pummeling style as soon as you get flurry of blows or brawlers equivalent. as youd get 2 attacks you could combine them.

im making a chart all 3 ideas, archetyped fighter (the two new archetypes), brawler, and sacred fist warpriest.

they each provide some interesting options. my main attraction to sacred fist/brawler is keeping the unarmed damage dice progression of a monk


w01fe01 wrote:


you could "use" pummeling style as soon as you get flurry of blows or brawlers equivalent. as youd get 2 attacks you could combine them.

Right, which is why I'd say going for a second Brawler level before MoMS gets you there a bit easier, because you get flurry at 2nd while MoMS gives up flurry (though you're probably well aware). You can also pick it up with the bonus feat that you get at 2nd level as a Brawler, saving your now-4th level style feat to advance another one or grab a new style... There's a ton you can do with this. It's kind of intimidating.

But yeah, I like the idea of punching dragons too. My players don't optimize too much, so we've never had many issues with Monks getting totally outclassed so long as I'm up on them needing magic items. I'll have to fiddle with Sacred Fist, it looks pretty fun. Maybe a bit feat-starved though.

Here's that half-elf Brawler with the double-chained kama I mentioned above. Just the sort of raw stats though. 20 point buy:

Spoiler:

Unnamed Hero
Half-Elf Brawler 3
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Hero Points 1
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +9
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+2 Dex)
hp 33 (3d10+3)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +2; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee double-chained kama +7 (1d6+6/x2) and
. . unarmed strike +7 (1d6+4)
Special Attacks brawler's flurry
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +3; CMB +7 (+10 grapple); CMD 19 (22 vs. grapple)
Feats Combat Expertise, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting
Skills Acrobatics +8, Escape Artist +8, Heal +4, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (local) +7, Perception +9, Sense Motive +6; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven, Tien
SQ elf blood, hero points, martial flexibility, unarmed strike
Other Gear double-chained kama, 142 gp
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Martial Flexibility (Move action, 4/day) (Ex) - 0/4
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Brawler's Flurry +1/+1 (Ex) Can make full attack & gain two-wep fighting, but only with unarmed strike, close, or monk wep.
Combat Expertise +/-1 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Martial Flexibility (Move action, 4/day) (Ex) As a Move action, gain a combat feat for 1 min. More gained for greater actions.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) Extra unarmed strike dam, no off-hand dam reduction and don't need free hands to att.

Seems pretty fun. +5/+5 flurry at 1d6+4/1d6+4 isn't bad, potentially with reach, and with some yoga you can turn one of those into a trip or a disarm without any trouble. Can also throw on Power Attack for some more damage, Weapon Focus to hit more consistently, Combat Reflexes to be the AoO hurricane, Dodge for AC...

Martial Flexibility, mmmmmmmm. So flexible...


one of the greatest features of the brawler with paizo's point buy system is its SAD as hell. and maintains a lot of flexibility with flexibility lol.

sacred fist really is more feat starved, and imo needs combat style master feat more then a brawler would. because of all there swift actions. but first level freedom of movement for 1 round is pretty damn sexy in my book too.

fighter archetypes? you can get flexibility of the brawler, more feats, and with the other archetype you can fly and pump your physical stats....but you dont get flurry of blows/brawlers flurry. wich is pretty noticeable too.


still seems feat starved when i try to build one with the most basic focus on making me better at punching things.

power attack, dragon style, dragon ferocity, pummeling style, pummeling charge, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization.

then iron will (cuz our will sucks)

then after ALL OF THAT, you can build towards things to branch out with flexibility. things like combat expertise, dodge, for examples.

you can make some interesting builds, but i think if you priorities punching things, your going to need to use flexibility at a more base level.

thankfully my playgroup has a good few house rules. power attack and combat expertise being free for all classes being some of them (and piranha strike for dex users)...helps me and the calss out a lot, tho i know not everyone has the luxury


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
w01fe01 wrote:


still seems feat starved when i try to build one with the most basic focus on making me better at punching things.

power attack, dragon style, dragon ferocity, pummeling style, pummeling charge, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization.

then iron will (cuz our will sucks)

then after ALL OF THAT, you can build towards things to branch out with flexibility. things like combat expertise, dodge, for examples.

you can make some interesting builds, but i think if you priorities punching things, your going to need to use flexibility at a more base level.

thankfully my playgroup has a good few house rules. power attack and combat expertise being free for all classes being some of them (and piranha strike for dex users)...helps me and the calss out a lot, tho i know not everyone has the luxury

Yeah, that's true. I think if you want to prioritize hitting and damage that much the Brawler archetype might be better. I get that it stinks that you can't get everything you want out of the class, but I think they didn't want to totally render the fighter obsolete for a pure beat stick. (Which is a shame, but kind of fair too.)

That said, loving the ideas for builds being thrown around here.


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Weird thing I'm finding with the Brawler is that it almost encourages you to go a little nutty with your build. Its design makes it so that you don't get great proficiencies, are discouraged by that and class mechanics to go with a big two-hander (no flurry, no damage die change on unarmed...), and then your armor is light to start with and you only get more class bonuses to AC if you stay in light or no armor. So in theory, yeah. We could build like a fighter and just smack things with a big rod of metal, but we're, like... Kinda bad at that.

Then what we are good at is one of the less efficient (or at least more complex) methods of doing melee damage. But the class' flexibility is such that you really can be good at the feat tax extravaganza that is unarmed combat. You can grapple, trip, disarm, bull rush all the things! But what makes that hard is how situational these maneuver things are, so it's a class that requires very good system mastery, a thorough understanding of maneuvers and unarmed mechanics, including grapple, along with an understanding of feat chains, what they do, what they're for, what skills you might need for them, what ability scores are required, all of this stuff just to function. If you aren't theorycrafting often or know feats and feat chains like the back of your hand it's gonna be a bit rough to get started.

So that's sort of what we're doing here =)

After trying for a bit here to build a straight Power Attacking Brawler, it's a tough call. I'd say just do another class... Steel Breaker gives up magic fists for the Martial Artist's Exploit Weakness ability to get a bonus to hit and bypass DR, but with a 2hander DR isn't as much of a problem as when you're using lots of fist attacks! So you aren't maximizing the potential there. Likewise, with Mutagenic Mauler, you give up MF for a bit of bonus damage and a mutagen, but you can't take Feral mutagen in-class until level 10! And even then, your unarmed attacks do more than the claws would, and you can flurry them anyways without any sort of feat investment for Feral Combat Training. So I'm ehhh there; MF is just a great option pile.


my 2 cents is you can make a brawler in a lot of interesting ways.

but if you want to optimomize damage with the base class...you can and do it very effectively

a that point you dont have as many options or you cant go as "deep" into a option with MF, but you can still use it.

blind fighting? no problem

you can take combat expertise with one of your MF charges and go to trip town or whatever...but you might not be able to get as fancy as a brawler who had combat expertise in there normal build.

same for dodge feat.

with pummeling style i dont think DR is a concern also.

so im basically making a build involving power attack, dragon style, pummeling style, dragon ferocity, pummeling charge, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, improved critical

that is every combat feat i think i need to optomize my unarmed damage. i cant think of anything else right now.

fill in the broader spectrum of brawler base feats to branch into with MF with the rest

oh and iron will, gotta shore up that will save.


hmm actually i need to do the math on how much damage a brawler specced for unarmed damage could do in a round with all that

20 point buy, completly sad...hmmmm


And that all comes online around, what, level 10 or so? Do you have any numbers for it yet? Seems like it might be a good test to compare a straight Brawler to a straight Monk in terms of unarmed damage capability, including perhaps differences in the use of Monk weapons and close weapons. Also, with Pummeling, it's likely best for any of these tests to assume that it's only for unarmed attacks. Pg. 140 of the ACG, like I pointed out above, is one of those pages where they index all of the new feats in the coming chapter with a brief description. Naturally, nobody ever reads these pages. It's 100% explicit there, though, that the intent is for the character to use Pummeling style only with unarmed attacks. At the very least you err on the side of caution building that way.

Anywho! Has anyone done anything with the Shield Champion archetype yet? It seems like it, Steel Breaker, and Wild Child are sort of the go-to archetypes for the class. They only give up Maneuver Training (or, typically, just modify it) and the Brawler's Strike ability to magic up and align fists. Wild Child does give up Close Weapon Mastery, but in return you're getting an animal companion that uses combat maneuvers AND Hunter's Tricks that rely on Constitution instead of Wisdom which he can swap out any time by using Martial Flexibility! That's pretty cool. Shield Champion also gives the Brawler some much-needed in-house throwing/ranged capability for little cost, and you can enhance a shield to bolster your defense, and when you pump it up with Bashing (you can have an adamantine Bashing shield for 4k gp) at level 5 you're smacking dudes with a 2d6 shield.


Yo I made this thread here.


Nice! That's a pretty good list. I've had to start avoiding GitP message boards though, because I've found every post turns into Edition Wars... When I get back from work tonight I'll see if I can't whip up a switch-hitter.


bumping this thread for reference! Good job guys!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Puna'chong wrote:


Anywho! Has anyone done anything with the Shield Champion archetype yet?

Yeah, I have. The big problem is the class eats up your feats more than the standard version... But the shield options are pretty amazing. Some stuff needs to be clarified (Do you need TWF for the "free" bonus feats, do you lose your AC bonus, etc.) A liberal reading of what the archetype can do is pretty impressive. For example: can I use Shield Slam to score a free bull rush on a thrown shield attack? And with the ricochet rules in effect, can I basically bull rush someone from any direction by tossing the shield?


Captain Morgan wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:


Anywho! Has anyone done anything with the Shield Champion archetype yet?

Yeah, I have. The big problem is the class eats up your feats more than the standard version... But the shield options are pretty amazing. Some stuff needs to be clarified (Do you need TWF for the "free" bonus feats, do you lose your AC bonus, etc.) A liberal reading of what the archetype can do is pretty impressive. For example: can I use Shield Slam to score a free bull rush on a thrown shield attack? And with the ricochet rules in effect, can I basically bull rush someone from any direction by tossing the shield?

Awesome. In my little tests on Hero Lab the archetype does seem to deliver. I'd say having to invest more feats into a very specific build (i.e., "I want to beat things over the head with a magic shield, with the option to use my huge metal disc as a frisbee to beat the crap out of monsters...") is acceptable, and at any rate you can always use some yoga to grab things you might need in niche situations. In general, if something doesn't say you get to ignore prereqs for a bonus feat, you still need the prereqs. Additionally, whenever you do something that is a shield bash (I'd say probably any time you want to attack with a shield in general) you'll lose the AC bonus unless you get the Improved feat.

But I'd also go with a fairly liberal reading for what the archetype is capable of. For all of its bonuses and penalties, I'd just treat throwing the shield as a shield bash (it even mentions it deals damage as a shield bash) for my home games and stick with that. So you're getting all of the bonuses you'd normally get, just using Dex for the throw. And it seems like it can ricochet off any target, so yeah. I'd totally allow stuff like a bull-rush moving towards the Brawler who then proceeds to beat the crap out of the closer enemy. It'd be like playing air hockey =P

I did test out a switch-hitter for Brawler. Hard to say with what you can do with flexibility, but while a ranger gets to beat prereq taxes the Brawler really just gets to use flexibility to temporarily move past stuff. I'd say if you want to go with being a dedicated switch-hitter, stick with ranger or another class that gets bonus feats which bypass prereqs. At later levels you're just a bit too inefficient because Brawlers have bad ranged proficiencies and, again, all of their class features push unarmed. That means you have to put more of your stressed feats into unarmed combat (inherently feat-starved), while a ranger can simply pick up Power Attack and a falchion or greatsword and have good output.

Because I pretty much only DM, I'll have to drop hints to get one of my players to play as "Captain Andoran" and live vicariously through their shenanigans... le siiiiiiiiiigh.....


Ok, putting it all together we get something like this:

Human MoMS Monk2/Brawler 18, 20ptb

str18 dex14 con14 int10 wis10 cha10 OR
str16 dex14 con14 int10 wis14 cha10 If you worry about the Will save

01 (MoMS) Power Attack; bonus: Pummeling Style; Bonus Combat Expertise
02
03 Weapon Focus (Unarmed); bonus: Dragon Style
04 (MoMS) bonus: Pummeling Charge
05 Combat Reflexes
06
07 Dodge; bonus: Dragon Ferocity
08
09 Weapon Specialization (Unarmed)
10 bonus: Critical Focus
11 Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed
12
13 Iron Will; bonus: Improved Grapple
14
15 Improved Critical
16 bonus: Improved Dirty Trick
17 Extra Martial Flexibility
18
19 Extra Martial Flexibility; bonus: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unamed)
20

What do you guys think?


I wouldn't take Pummeling Style at first level. You get nothing out of it until you can flurry or gain iterative attacks (MoMS replaces flurry). Dragon Style is a better choice for the first bonus feat because it works all the time at every level so long as you're in its stance. Also, I'd start with Brawler 1) to get Martial Flexibility from the get-go, which can really make a huge difference considering how limited you are at 1st level, 2) to get a better hit die at level 1, which is usually the only time a lot of DMs allow max HP, 3) to get +1 BAB at level 1, otherwise you can't actually take Power Attack, 4) to get Brawler's Cunning so you can actually take Combat Expertise, and 5) to start out with any favored class bonus I'd want. Sure, your saves and proficiencies won't be as solid, and you lose out on Stunning Fist at the beginning, but at level 1 does it matter? I'd rather be able to grab PBS or Dodge or Blind-Fight or whatever for those odd fights that are super desperate at the beginning.

If dump stats are allowed I'd dump Charisma to pump up Wisdom to make Stunning Fist harder to resist and to actually take advantage of Wisdom to armor. My breakdown would look like this with the +2 on str:

str 17, dex 14, con 13, int 10, wis 14, cha 10 without dumps.
str 17, dex 14, con 13, int 12, wis 15, cha 7 with full dump.

I usually try to stat my theoretical characters off the idea that you'll be rounding out odd numbers with advancement bonuses. Saves points. This stat breakdown means we get a +2 to AC from Wisdom, our Stunning Fist is 2 harder to resist, and if we dump charisma we get an extra skill point to play with or we can put constitution at 14. The dump route we also meet most prerequisites for style chains that we might want to pick up in the course of play with our yoga. And extra skill points are always nice. I'd like to put out again that I think B1/M1(MoMS)/B2/M2 is the way to go if you're really pushing the concept, as it delivers what you're looking for at every level and you're getting at least 1 feat every level until 4th (as far as I've rolled so far).

Grand Lodge

dot dotdotdot dot dooooooooooooooot


So, here's something fun I made that utilizes the Brawler as a dip: Brutal Pugilist Abyssal Bloodline Barbarian. Sounds fun, looks fun, should be fun!

Riptar:

Riptar
Half-Orc Barbarian (Brutal Pugilist) 5/Brawler 2 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 0)
CG Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Hero Points 1
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +11
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+2 Dex)
hp 94 (5d12+2d10+14)
Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3; +4 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities while raging but must resist all spells, even allies'
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +11 (1d4+6) and
. . unarmed strike +11/+6 (1d6+4)
Special Attacks brawler's flurry, rage (14 rounds/day), rage powers (abyssal blood, lesser, superstition +4)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +11 (+17 grapple); CMD 23 (25 vs. grapple)
Feats Feral Combat Training[UC], Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Acrobatics +11, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (local) +4, Knowledge (nature) +4, Perception +11, Stealth +5, Survival +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Common, Orc
SQ fast movement, hero points, savage grapple, martial flexibility, orc blood, weapon familiarity, pit fighter, unarmed strike
Other Gear 150 gp
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Martial Flexibility (Move action, 4/day) (Ex) - 0/4
Rage (14 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/14
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Abyssal Blood, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 1d6 claw attacks when raging (1d4 if small).
Brawler's Flurry +5/+5/+0 (Ex) Can make full attack & gain two-wep fighting, but only with unarmed strike, close, or monk wep.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Feral Combat Training (Claw) Use Improved Unarmed Strike feats with natural weapons
Greater Grapple Maintaining a grapple is a move action, allowing you to make 2 checks a round.
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Savage Grapple (Ex) Grapples always provoke AoO from you, no grapple penalties, grapple at +1 size.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Martial Flexibility (Move action, 4/day) (Ex) As a Move action, gain a combat feat for 1 min. More gained for greater actions.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Pit Fighter +2 (Grapple) Selected combat maneuver gains +1 CMB or +1 CMB (+2 if not wearing armor)
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (14 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Superstition +4 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) Extra unarmed strike dam, no off-hand dam reduction and don't need free hands to att.

So why is this guy fun? Well, he gets a lot of feats plus Martial Flexibility PLUS flurry from the Brawler class. What we like here is the fact that we can (or should, honestly) flurry feral weapons with the Brawler class feature and Feral Combat Training with our Abyssal claws. Now, the feat's Special says, "If you are a monk, you can use the selected [natural] weapon with your flurry class feature." Personally, I'll houserule in that this works with the Brawler's flurry too, as they're the same thing.

This is different from a Barbarian/Monk guy because 1) you don't have to houserule any alignment stuff and 2) you get Martial Flexibility along with full BAB progression even after dipping, PLUS the ability to ignore restrictions on Combat Expertise if you want to eventually use combat maneuver stuff. Your bonus feat at level 2 is also relevant, because if you go Bbn/Bar/Bbn/Bbn/Bar etc. you can grab Weapon Focus (Claws) and Feral Combat Training at the same time using your normal feat as well as your Brawler bonus feat; it's just efficient folks. But under the hood, what is this guy actually doing?

Well, at level 7 you are sitting pretty at full +7 BAB. That's cool, and one higher than a comparable Bbn/Monk build. You've got a claw attack from Abyssal Blood (which I chose to get the enlarge person effect at level 8 for this guy, but Beast Totem works too), a bite attack from Toothy, a whopping +11 to Will saves while raging thanks to Superstition, and when you grapple you take no penalties on anything, their grapples provoke, and you are treated as 1 category larger while you grapple (Brutal Pugilist). You're also able to flurry your claws, which is sweet, and pick up the Boar, Dragon, Grabbing, Jabbing, Pummeling, Scorpion, Snapping Turtle, and Tiger styles with yoga.

But wait, there's more! Since you've got Greater Grapple you get to attack twice, essentially, against a creature who is trapped in your adamantine vise. Raging I think the squealing target of your grapples have to beat some ungodly CMD (I think 35+, because of size mods) to resist you, and you get a +17 CMB with no penalties on attacks or ANYTHING while you grapple them, and you can grapple larger opponents. Once you get to level 8 you can grow 1/day during combat with the Abyssal Bloodline power, making you count as HUGE while grappling and doing even more damage just as an innate ability. At level 12 (which is a bit late, but still) you can pick up Body Bludgeon and swing around creatures that are Large or smaller (a large creature is I think 2d6 damage this way) after you pin them. Not if, after. Because you will pin them. And they will turn into your lamp-post of choice, because you can Martial Flexibility into Weapon Focus [Corpse] while you beat their buddies with their bodies.

Speaking of yoga, you can pick up Dazing Fist to hit dudes when you're clawing them, Dragon Style to help you ragepounce into dudes or just do bonus damage with your stupid high strength, Eldritch Claws if you come up against damage reduction, Ferocious Tenacity to not die, Jabbing Style to add 3d6 to a successful full-attack, Nightmare Fist to be, like, a nightmare against dudes in a darkness effect the wizard made, Smash to break stuff really hard, Staggering Fist to staggerclaw, or any number of feats you'd want. And all this while still being able to wear medium armor, wield just about any weapon you'd want to wield, and have great HD. And if you wanted to take Animal Fury (say, you're not a human or half-orc and/or don't want to take Superstition or the Toothy trait, in which case I totally support your decisions don't let anyone tell you otherwise =) ) you'd get free bites too whenever you maintain a grapple. Which, for this guy at level 7, means you're adding two more free attacks to a round of grappling (I think, maybe only 1 because wording).

Also, the beauty of this build, I think, is how much flexibility you have, both Martial and otherwise. You're not necessarily pigeonholed into grappling because all you're giving up in terms of class features is Trap Sense and Uncanny Dodge. You have full martial proficiencies along with full BAB and a free feat that's always floating around for things like Vital Strike, Cleave, Weapon Focus [Greatsword], etc. and can pick up a 2hander and do great damage if you have to. And, if you really want to push it [though you lose Flexibility, which is the point of this thread, but whatever], you can take the Mutagenic Mauler archetype and have a super fun mutagen to add to your rage!

You are Riptar. Hear you roar, you big beast, you.

The Exchange

Puna'chong wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:


Anywho! Has anyone done anything with the Shield Champion archetype yet?

Yeah, I have. The big problem is the class eats up your feats more than the standard version... But the shield options are pretty amazing. Some stuff needs to be clarified (Do you need TWF for the "free" bonus feats, do you lose your AC bonus, etc.) A liberal reading of what the archetype can do is pretty impressive. For example: can I use Shield Slam to score a free bull rush on a thrown shield attack? And with the ricochet rules in effect, can I basically bull rush someone from any direction by tossing the shield?
Awesome. In my little tests on Hero Lab the archetype does seem to deliver. I'd say having to invest more feats into a very specific build (i.e., "I want to beat things over the head with a magic shield, with the option to use my huge metal disc as a frisbee to beat the crap out of monsters...") is acceptable, and at any rate you can always use some yoga to grab things you might need in niche situations. In general, if something doesn't say you get to ignore prereqs for a bonus feat, you still need the prereqs. Additionally, whenever you do something that is a shield bash (I'd say probably any time you want to attack with a shield in general) you'll lose the AC bonus unless you get the Improved feat.

I think he'd be talking about the Brawlers dodge AC bonus and if shield champions can get that when using a shield. Usually they couldn't, but it's strange to have an archtypes main feature not function with a class feature that stays active.

Also the two weapon fighting thing, well we don't get any benefit from it, so why are we forced to take it?


Ah. Yeah, RAW they don't, but I'd houserule they do. And TWF for Shield Master is odd, mainly because a flurrying Brawler is treated as having it for the purpose of those attacks. Another thing I'd houserule out, but I think in this case I would just give them Shield Master as a bonus feat with no strings attached. As with a lot of things in ACG, it seems like Paizo could've used a few more days to edit... Though, I have a suspicion that a lot of these archetypes were written up before they had finalized their updates from the playtest, so there might be some weird things here and there (Ecclesitheurge comes to mind).

The Exchange

Ok i'm asking the question for PFS, and all I ever get as a response to those 2 key points are "House rules" and "talk to your GM". Well I can't do that. So can we please get an official response. The poor editing and checking in the ACG needs to be addressed!


This thread and General Discussion are the wrong places to ask that. You'll want to go to Rules Questions and FAQ it, or else you're just going to get these same responses.

The Exchange

Been there. Done that. Got ignored.


Been excited about this since I saw it. I've got a blog post sitting slowly in the barrel when I can get the computer running.

I think taking a few root feats to get more and more access to the wide range of combat feats is the right idea. But, I'd probably stop at combat expertise and power attack for the most part as "must haves" and only take things like blind fight or critical focus unless you want to specialize in that way.

Honestly I think critical focus is a waste for a brawler but amazing on the lorewarden/martial master fighter. Simple reason being that unarmed strikes and close weapons tend to have bad crit ratings.


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Yeah, I'll agree that Power Attack and Combat Expertise will cover most general bases. I think noting that Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, and to a certain extent Two-Weapon Fighting (for Shield Champ.) are all roots is good though. As long as you pick two you're well on your way to doing what you want to do, just have to think about it ahead of time. The more of these you have the more flexible you'll be, but all of that flexibility will probably come at the price of raw power unless someone with far better theorycrafting/optimizing skills than me comes along and throws out some monstrous build. And I do agree that Critical Focus is a waste for the Brawler. Unless you're working really, really hard to maximize the output of Pummeling Style's crazy critical thing, you'll get more mileage out of other feats at that level. Other classes, like you said, can do the thing too. Besides, if you want effects on your crits just dip into Monk and start slapping dudes around with your Stunning Fist, or take the new (oddly-worded) feats that let you add daze, staggered, etc. to unarmed attacks.

For those of you at home, or if it's four years from now and people still care, here are the feats you'll want to take as "root" feats, unless there are new hoverboard feat options:

Power Attack: This'll be your damage output center, and it's pretty much always useful. I shouldn't really need to explain this to you, and can't without being condescending, but this is what unlocks all of those more offensive, brute-force Improved [Combat Maneuver]s, like Bull Rush or Sunder. You can safely skip this if you're doing a more Dexterity-based build or one that just doesn't have the room, but I'd recommend taking it anyways.

Combat Expertise: The poster child for feat taxes, luckily as a Brawler you basically get to bypass the Int requirement with no hard feelings. This is the opposite of Power Attack in terms of use, but you really won't be using it unless you're desperate. Instead, this unlocks the more subtle and arguably more useful Improved [Combat Maneuver]s like Trip or Disarm. You can safely skip this if you don't care about doing those maneuvers, and unlike Power Attack you probably won't miss it if you don't take it.

Combat Reflexes: These feats are sort of a triad (Str 13, Int 13, Dex 13) for feat chains, and Combat Reflexes opens up a bunch of situational but useful things, not to mention bonus attacks of opportunity are always super nice. This feat leads you down the battlefield control line, much like Combat Expertise, but it's different in that most of what it lets you do is be super reactive. With a reach weapon, too, you can be a threateningly sharp wall. You can safely skip this if you are ok missing out on a couple styles (panther, snake) and doing all of your stuff on your own turn.

Improved Grapple: Grappling is weird, and kind of hard, but if you think on character creation "Ehhh, I might want to wrastle dragons..." then pick this up. Likewise, if you find yourself grappling a lot, stop using Martial Flexibility to grab it and keep it around. Not provoking is always nice, but once you start stacking grapple bonuses it's almost always a done deal, as most things have very little in the way of specific CMD against it. Also, it unlocks a lot of very impressive feats at mid-high levels, so keep that in mind. You can safely skip this if you don't intend to ever grapple anything, or only grapple on rare occasions.

Dodge: +1 AC seems lame. It kind of is, but what you're really taking this for is to unlock Crane Style and the upper tiers of Monkey and Jabbing, along with situational things that are nice to have like Mobility/Spring Attack. And it's never bad to improve your AC. However, this one is super specific, so you don't need to pick it up unless you're planning to frequently use the style feats it unlocks or Mobility/Spring Attack stuff. You can safely skip this if you aren't doing those, but it isn't a bad one to grab if (heaven forbid) you can't find another feat to take.

Weapon Focus: It's surprising how much this unlocks, but if you want to do stuff like Dazzling Display or... a lot of other things, check out what requires this and see if you want to stick with one weapon or unarmed from the get-go. It's never a bad thing to be better at hitting, so you won't regret picking this up unless you decide to stop using the specific weapon or your fists (I recommend fists, personally). You can safely skip this if you don't want anything that branches off of it, which mostly includes static bonuses or intimidation things.

Two-Weapon Fighting: Lastly, and very much a niche pick, you can pick this up almost solely to fulfill prereqs for Shield Champion. It's weird, and it'll probably get errata'd, but for right now if you plan on taking a Shield Champion to level 11 and beyond you'll need this to pick up Shield Master and to use Shield Slam. It's a definite feat tax that shouldn't be there, but if you find yourself wanting to be Captain Andoran you'll need to pick this up before it's too late. You can safely skip this unless you're a Shield Champion, or really, really want to take the feat to dual-wield a weapon not on your default proficiencies cuuuuz... You can flurry with all of those...

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