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So, as stated above, I want to uderstand how these two interact, as they say they stack. The reading:
Rapier Weapon Mastery(EX): At 20th level, when an inspired blades threatens a critical hit with a rapier, that critical hit is automatically confirmed. Furthermore, the critical threat range increases by 1(this increase to the critical threat range stacks with increases from the keen weapon special ability and similar effects) and the critical modifier of the weapon increases by (x2 becomes x3, for example). This replaces swashbuckler weapon mastery.
This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll. This benefit doesn't stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).
I ask about the order in which these abilities take effect. Does it go keen, then RWM, or RWM, then keen? The fact that it doesn't specify is just bad, because even though it's a 20th level ability, having an auto crit from between 13-20 seems pretty ridiculous, even if we don't go into the critical feats. Bleeding critical four times in one turn? Seven if they dual wield rapiers? Freaking scary and ridiculous... If it works that way.
I'd say keen first and then rapier mastery since it seems to augment the weapons current Crit range. So with keen the actual range is 15-20 so it drops by 1.
I agree with Havoc XIII on that, given the clause stating that it stacks with effects that increase the range.
Additionally, it's a a sort of static precision bonus, which, in the cases of Vital Strike, are generally added at the end of an attack, and aren't multiplicative on criticals, for example.
Also, consider Order of Operations. You do Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction, in that order to calculate the final result. Since multiplication (doubling the threat range) comes before addition (+1 to the threat range), by mathematical calculations, you would come to 14 instead of 13.
Thanks all. I figured it wouldn't be the 13-20, but I just wanted to be sure. As I said above, having an 8 in 20 chance(2/5ths) chance of a guaranteed crit just seemed a little unfair.
So would improved crit work the same way? The rapier only has an 18-20 crit range when it's laying there, so which applies first when you pick it up?
Remember that the ability only stacks with effects that already work with themselves. It doesn't allow Improved Critical to stack with Keen.
Additionally, Improved Critical still doubles the threat range, so that's a similar effect to Keen.
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So would improved crit work the same way? The rapier only has an 18-20 crit range when it's laying there, so which applies first when you pick it up?Remember that the ability only stacks with effects that already work with themselves. It doesn't allow Improved Critical to stack with Keen.
Additionally, Improved Critical still doubles the threat range, so that's a similar effect to Keen.
Umm, what? I'm talking about mastery and improved crit, not IC and keen.
And I still think it's 13-20
I can see the ambiguity of the wording, thus the question of 13 or 14. PF doesn't have many special rules relating to mathematics, so we don't have something specific to refer to. If we were to not nit-pick to unclear wording, and instead follow PEMDAS, we would get 14-20.
So would improved crit work the same way? The rapier only has an 18-20 crit range when it's laying there, so which applies first when you pick it up?Remember that the ability only stacks with effects that already work with themselves. It doesn't allow Improved Critical to stack with Keen.
Additionally, Improved Critical still doubles the threat range, so that's a similar effect to Keen.
Umm, what? I'm talking about mastery and improved crit, not IC and keen.
And I still think it's 13-20
And it'd work the same way, since Improved Critical is a similar effect to Keen, so it stacks all the same.
I doubt it would be 13-20. It's a static modifier, it goes on after the fact. I'm sure Paizo would specify if the amount it grants is also multiplied.
Yeah but keen is also a static bonus, it doubles the whole crit range not part of it.
We're missing one key word to make this easy. Furthermore, the Base/current crit range is increased by 1. It's an easy fix if they get to it.
It's not a static bonus, it's a percentage bonus; the amount varies on which multiplier you use. It doesn't make 19-20 weapon into an 18-20 weapon like this modifier would.
It's ambiguous, sure, and it's an easy fix. I just doubt they want to give 13-20 Rapier criticals.
Totally!
Swashbucklers are not magical, so they shouldn't be too crazy in what they can do!
Yeah but keen is also a static bonus, it doubles the whole crit range not part of it.
We're missing one key word to make this easy. Furthermore, the Base/current crit range is increased by 1. It's an easy fix if they get to it.It's not a static bonus, it's a percentage bonus; the amount varies on which multiplier you use. It doesn't make 19-20 weapon into an 18-20 weapon like this modifier would.
It's ambiguous, sure, and it's an easy fix. I just doubt they want to give 13-20 Rapier criticals.
Especially since they auto crit on any critical threat. With all the super buffs to hit you can get, they'd have a high enough bonus to to beat most ACs, and as I said before, they'd be critting 2/5ths of the time. That's 40% of the time, btw. It seems like one point wouldn't make a difference, but it would.
I would say that it is probably 14-20 when combined with either Improved Critical or Keen. Remember that both cannot be in effect on the same weapon, or rather that only one functions to increase critical threat range at a time.
It is somewhat ambiguous, but I think the +1 to critical threat range should be applied after double from other effects.
Also, do remember that it's not a critical threat unless it is actually enough to overcome the enemies AC. If you have a threat range of 14-20, and roll a 14 for an attack total of 40, but the enemies AC is 41 you still simply miss.
I don't know why swashbucklers are getting keen on their weapon.