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I disagree with your hyperbole-laden rant.
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Without brawlers cunning they would have serious problems. May feats down chains require 13 int. It's one of the brawlers best features when combined with Martial flexibility.
Without brawlers cunning they would have serious problems. May feats down chains require 13 int. It's one of the brawlers best features when combined with Martial flexibility.
Shame there's no archetype that trades this away though. I had a neat idea for a brawler with a decent int score but it's a waste of points with cunning.
@Marcus, it just seems like a workaround so that they can get combat expertise without spending the attributes...but still forced to spend a feat slot on it.
Improved trip still requires 13 int.
So without brawlers cunning they would be hosed. Brawlers are around monk strong. They are good, but they have to be built well.
So the class isn't for you. You don't like the theme. that doesn't make it a bad class.
Granted it could be much, much better and there's a lot of little things that could use fixing, but the sky isn't falling.
@Marcus, it just seems like a workaround so that they can get combat expertise without spending the attributes...but still forced to spend a feat slot on it.Improved trip still requires 13 int.
So without brawlers cunning they would be hosed. Brawlers are around monk strong. They are good, but they have to be built well.
or they dont use trip? im confused on why anyone would water down a class like this, if someone wanted to focus on combat maneuvers tehy could have made an archetype or two.
either way brawlers cunning isnt my major beef, its flexibilty and maneuver training. one would only be used very seldomly just so you dont run out when you need it. the other just wouldnt be used, not by me.
i wanted to like this class...but even looking at the archetypes i cant get rid of both adn having anything useful in its place.
i can get mutagen to replace flexibility, and i can at least find ways to keep using that.
but maneuver training there is nothing good in the archetypes to replace it.
Sounds like you wanted a full BAB class that punches things well.
Fighters can already do that, and do it well with archetypes.
You don't have to "rely" on combat maneuvers though. You just have a feature that makes them better if you do.
I'm honestly not seeing what the problem here is.
It sounds like you just want a class that runs around a full attacks things with his fist.
The concept you want is inherently weak just like a two-handed power attacking fighter. It's too narrow in scope and doesn't make for an effective non-broken class.
The brawler is a mere mortal that is appears to be competent. It has options. Options that go outside your concept scope. Which isn't a bad thing.
So the class isn't for you. You don't like the theme. that doesn't make it a bad class.
Granted it could be much, much better and there's a lot of little things that could use fixing, but the sky isn't falling.
except even after several years i still cannot make what i want to make.
apparently having a unarmed fighter that doesnt rely on combat maneuvers or severely gimped resource mechanics is not in the cards for paizo.
brawler was my hope i guess, and i hoped that even if the base class wasnt to my liking that there would be a archetype or two to help out. there is not. im stuck with a unfocused unarmed fighter no matter my choices it seems. and dont bring up fighter/barbarian as unarmed...i wanted a calss that at base excelled at unarmed combat...
2 things-
1.) Have you seen the sohei archetype? Depending on how you read their bonus feats (it says you 'may' pick mounted feats, but it never says that this replaces the normal feat selection), then it does what you want.
It gets light armor and it can flurry in it (based off of a FAQ). It gets a form of weapon training 'as the fighter class feature' (so it can grab gloves of dueling). Grab some brawling armor on top of that so it can compete with flurrying polearms, and unarmed strikes work fine with it (it punches about as hard as a melee inquisitor with standard action attacks when you have the magical items).
2.) Have you even noticed pummeling style and pummeling charge in ACG? From what I hear, they are on page 154.
Pummeling style lets you put all of your flurry into 1 full round action punch, which means DR is meaningless against you. Pummel charge lets you use pummel style with a charge. That is basically pounce.
Sure, the mobile style is not baked directly into the class, but you get what you wanted by level 8-9 anyway. That is before even a barbarian can grab pounce. And it solves all the problems of an unarmed style (it destroys DR and it turns the TWF focused style unarmed strikes need into a pure advantage)
at least a bloodrager does something well. kill things
And the brawler does that pretty well too.
i just wanted to do that with my fists, in a class that was designed around it.
Both of the classes you're crying about do good damage with their fists. Again, nothing to complain about.
and both get watered down by baking in CM's into the base class.
Again, not really. Gaining more option doesn't "water you down". It physically can't. Like. It literally does the exact opposite of that.
Watered down would be your "dream" class that's apparently incompetent at everything except damage (and we already have that anyways).
It sounds like you just want a class that runs around a full attacks things with his fist.
The concept you want is inherently weak just like a two-handed power attacking fighter. It's too narrow in scope and doesn't make for an effective non-broken class.
The brawler is a mere mortal that is appears to be competent. It has options. Options that go outside your concept scope. Which isn't a bad thing.
a fighter is weak because of its lack of ways of getting to target, staying on target, and keeping from being made useless.
granted brawler probably has that trouble too to a degree
Ok, #3- have you seen the brawler fighter archetype (yeah, Paizo has confusing naming conventions).
It can combine an ability, No escape, with the Stand still feat in order to make 'staying on target' into a non-issue. Stand still lets you do a maneuver to stop any AoO drawing movement to stop in adjacent squares. No Escape pretty much makes any movement out of your adjacent squares draw AoOs. Combined with a rather large scaling bonus later on, the brawler archetype for fighters can keep even big beefy opponents from escaping them. Also, this archetype focuses on the close weapon group (i.e.-the one where unarmed strikes are in)
I think the reason you are unsatisfied, w01fe01, is because you do not spend the time to familiarize yourself with your options.
And 'halting your unarmed progression' is not that bad for the sohei. Increasing damage dice is a terrible way to increase damage most of the time. Getting straight +'s to attack and damage (particularly 7 of them when combining weapon training, gloves of dueling, and brawling armor) is a far better choice. This is because reliably hitting with good attack bonuses is a more important problem for them.
Resources you don't spend cause you gain feats on the fly...
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Martial Flexibility:I agree, this isn't all that I had hoped for it to be either. But it still can be fairly useful, with some creativity. Look through any book in the game that provides a large pool of feats, and you will probably find at least 1 combat feat that looks neat but is too situational to use. Examples include Blind Fight[well-designed, but unless you have a bunch of feats, isn't exactly the easiest to implement], Acrobatic Steps/Nimble Moves, Flanking Foil, etc. This lets you have them when you need them. Alternatively, at 6th level when it becomes a swift action, you can pick up things useful most of the time that you haven't yet had time to get[Enforcer, Weapon Spec/Greater, Weapon Focus, etc], and just treat it as "free goodies" in several fights a day. I'd advise against multiple uses at once though, unless you have to. 15 minute workday isn't supposed to apply to martials as well as casters[especially since the latter is debatable]. Also, is there an "extra" martial flexibility feat? I have only gotten to skim the Brawler class and get a few other spoilers[don't have the book yet].
Mobility:I'm really glad Pummeling Style is a thing now. Because with Pummeling Style/Charge you now never have to fear DR again, and have your own pseudo-pounce to enter fights with. Makes brawler a surprisingly mobile combatant. Unfortunately, now you can't do Dragon Style and this, so MoMS dips are probable in the future.
Maneuver Training:I would ordinarily point out times when combat maneuvers don't suck, but instead, because you seem to not want them for both the suck factor and a lack of theme, all I can say is that I do agree with you that it doesn't quite fit. I get things like Dirty Trick and Grapple, that might come up in a brawl, but then there are things like disarm that just...really? Do these even have to be options? I hope that the Advanced Class Origins[or another nearby splatbook] includes an archetype that replaces this with something better.
TLDR; i HATE martial flexibility and even more so maneuver training, they are too limited in use or scope of usefulness and take away form what i imagine a brawler. in short i think they are crap. any archetype or way to remove them and replace them with something actually useful?
The bloodrager and brawler are the two classes i was most excited about. the bloodrager largely does what i hoped for. a strong frontline fighter with smattering of spells. bloodlines are just awesome gravy to me.
the brawler tho...i had such hopes. i love hte monk, but its 3/4 bab and conflicting mechanics and tons of fluff meant unless i was doing silly things that had a decent chance of failing, i was just trying to flurry of blows everything, wich required me not moving...(see the conflict?)
low and behold a FULL BAB UNARMED combatant with NO ALIGNTMENT RESTRICTION and able to use LIGHT ARMOR.
holy mother of jeebus yes!...but wait...lets look closer.
Brawlers cunning...really? you couldnt just give them combat expertise for free? this is simple to understand but is very much "beating around the bush" to force a feat tax. ok whatever, i rarely use anything that involves combat expertise anyways.
Martial flexibility...seems pretty awesome. find yourself in the dark/vs invisbile enemies? haha! blind fight <about the best thing i can imagine it for aside from wanting to get fancy and temporarily trying a combat maneuver of some kind. then i look at its uses...holy cripe. level 20 they get 13 uses, and each feat you pick takes up a use, and they only last one minute! this kills it outright for me. my playgroup does NOT adhere to the "15 min work day" idea. i would run out of these so fast its not funny.
quite simply a massive change is needed for this feature. make it cost nothing? make it only cost one point even if you learn more then one feat? its uses are so limiting if there is an option id archetype it out in a heartbeat.
maneuver training...i think i just threw up in my mouth a little seeing this. imo combat maneuver focus should NEVER EVER EVER EVER be baked into a base class. the very nature of combat maneuvers mechanically in pathfinder make them useless or narrowly incredibly powerful vs just hte right enemy. this makes me more upset then even martial flexibility. please tell me there is a way to archetype both this and flexibility out?
Okay so were gonna answer these mostly in order.. Brawlers cunning in fact exists to allow brawlers to martial maneuver grab all the combat maneuver feat chains without having to slot a 13 into intelligence. It was in fact one of the most requested abilities in the brawlers playtest.
Only lasts one minute is an issue with you ? Ive been playing a brawler with the playtest rules for a bit off and on and I *never* have combats go past ten rounds let alone ten rounds after I grabs my custom set of eff your day feats designed for hosing that enemy in specific.. But I admit I have a high level of system mastery.. Still I can't imagine a fight going past ten rounds unless your fighting like 300 kobolds at level ten.. who are all running away.. And to spread out for area spells.. Plus theres a feat to get you more uses. Which is sixteen minutes.. Since my combats never last the full ten and I tend to not use the feat on scrub fights its one or two fights with two cherry picked encounter counters and a few extra uses to grab an emergency defence feat or something. If your facing so many encounters that's not enough you play the game somewhat differently than what the math intends. the 13 uses at level is 130 *rounds* of feat and thats not good enough ?
As for your thoughts on maneuvers.. Um.. Wow.. Okay. So flying hoses a base brawler period.. you cant punch things in the air and your ranged options are a step up from getting tea bagged but not really something you'd admit to using in public.. <Unless you're the Captain Andoran alternate> So yeah trip especially is totes situational but if you've ever seen a tricked out lore warden or tertori monk go into shop wreck mode you'd be less down on the control options provided by a good maneuverer.. Thier uses aren't as cut and dry as 'I walk up and punch it in the face with my seven knuckles of justice.' but they're a solid fall back plan in at least a third of the encounters in your average AP style game and when you can grab the whole string of feats only when you need them getting on the chain is off the chain.
Now that all being said I can accept that you don't like the class or its play style but its not bad its just doesnt suit your play methods which is good because different strokes for different folks.
im aware of brawler archetype, i played it. its boring.
"oh but all you wanted to do was hit things" someone might say. yes and no. brawler doesnt provide the other half of what i aim for and nothing ever will probably, but i do supposed id rather be bored then frustrated at failing CM rolls or staring at maneuver training ability on my character sheet and being annoyed its there.
this is part of the reason i enjoyed bloodrager. i didnt just hit things, i could enlarge, move faster, move on surfaces i normally wouldnt, etc. it provided me options, but the options didnt suck.
...what did you want from the brawler class then? An unarmed spellcaster? Maybe a rage/smite/judgment mechanic?
I honestly want a summary of what you are looking for here. Please just list a set of mechanics you have seen on other classes that 'work' for you.
Trip is a fun maneuver against anything with two legs, if you ask me. And there are lots of ways to stack bonuses for it (the hyena spirit skin comes to mind).
I haven't looked at the class since yesterday, but you can get mutagen access? mutagens are, if it's the same thing as the alchemist one, extremely powerful and useful.
Can you use martial versatility to pick up the powerful and situational mounted combat feats (I don't remember how it works)? Or the style feats? Improved critical with any weapon? Actually, any of the critical focus feats? Maybe proficiency with things like the net or bolas? Bludgeoneer?
Like I said, maybe I don't get how the power works, but I feel like it could be pretty cool and versatile. Or maybe not because I can't see it.
Maneuver training seems pretty fun to me. Tripping is great against anything with two legs. Sundering a wand or spell component pouch can be a life saver. Yes, situational, I know. But I mean, I feel like complaining about maneuver training is like complaining about jack of all trades. Sure it's not a good ability, but it's not like having it necessarily hurts you.
im aware of brawler archetype, i played it. its boring.
"oh but all you wanted to do was hit things" someone might say. yes and no. brawler doesnt provide the other half of what i aim for and nothing ever will probably, but i do supposed id rather be bored then frustrated at failing CM rolls or staring at maneuver training ability on my character sheet and being annoyed its there.
this is part of the reason i enjoyed bloodrager. i didnt just hit things, i could enlarge, move faster, move on surfaces i normally wouldnt, etc. it provided me options, but the options didnt suck.
...what did you want from the brawler class then? An unarmed spellcaster? Maybe a rage/smite/judgment mechanic?
I honestly want a summary of what you are looking for here. Please just list a set of mechanics you have seen on other classes that 'work' for you.
i already said brawler couldnt fit my ideal class, but i was excited for it for the small bits it could fullfill, wich it then ceased to.
as far as what my ideal class would be? a melee focused class, capable fo fighting in most environments with equal effecitiveness. good example would be a flying enemy, so it would be able to fly in some way (crap, already invalidated brawler, but i said that would happen)
he has mobility, by wich i do not mean he has a bunch of movement like a monk but hampered by flurry of blows retarded mechanics of hurp durp i must now stand still to attack at full potential. no real class has this, as paizo seems obsessed that if you want to do good damage, you have to make yourself a sitting duck.
he uses his fists, I.E. monk/brawler level unarmed damage progression along with free unarmed combat feats like improved unarmed baked into the class without losing existing class features.
so, a bloodrager that has fisticuffs baked into the base class? i didnt see an archetype for that tho
I was going to go on about how you would love the deadly fist archetype for soulknives from all that psionic junk...but psionics hurt my head (yes, I realize the irony).
But instead, why couldn't you just play a bloodrager with the unarmed focused rage powers? Sure, it doesn't give you unarmed strike dice progression (you obsession with that), but it gives you everything else you asked. Or dip sohei to give you unarmed stuff, and then just use blood rager for the rest (less resources used, I guess). With pummeling style as a 'thing' now, there are far fewer reasons to avoid using unarmed styles (since DR is no longer a problem for your fists). Just get someone to cast greater magical fang on you (bribe them with pearls of power?) and then I see little lost.
i already said brawler couldnt fit my ideal class, but i was excited for it for the small bits it could fullfill, wich it then ceased to.
Which it ceased to?
But that's complete nonsense. Having Maneuver training doesn't suddenly make it bad at fighting in a direct combat. The point is utter nonsense.
You're right that it lacks flight, but it never did in the first place so whining about that doesn't make sense either.
Then again, complaining about a 13/day ability being too limited to ever be worth using seems sort of silly too.
Because honestly your described "dream class" is a dragon totem barbararian or a Strix brawler/monk. Pretty simple.
Honestly at this point it's like you're going out of your ways to try to not like a class rather than having any honest discussion though.
A Strix or Wyvaran or Angel Aasimar (couple other races I can't remember) Brawler/archetype monk does everything you want. Sucks to be locked into a racial choice but the only other way to get flight and pounce at the same time is to take Pummeling Charge on a Dragon Totem barbarian.
Eh. I'm not a huge fan of maneuvers either but having it in your back pocket if you want to trip something is nice.
Hm..
Pummeling Bully lets you free action trip after a pummeling strike. Still not great, but it's something.
because i wanted unarmed baked into the base class, i wanted it to revolve around that.
and yes i have an obsession with unarmed strike progression, its not the most effective form of damage progression but its added to the total, and losing it would bother me greatly.
i am grateful for pummeling style tho, probably will be in all my builds.
at this point i feel like my last hope will be to the monk changes they are supposedly coming out with next year. annoying to wait that long.
i also do not like psionics, nor gunslingers...wich i know isnt what your talking about heh.
I only suggested the psionics thing since it was the only punchy thing I knew of that could possible do range and flying and...again, I have no idea of how psionics really works. I assume it does....stuff.....
But Squiggit is right- you could go barbarian with dragon totem and the brawler rage powers (or get TWF feats normally; it is not that hard to get enough dex for the good TWf feats while still being a strength build on a standard 20 pt buy). With pummeling style and charge, you miss out on little compared to a 'normal' barbarian if you skipped beast totem. The only thing you miss out on is your beloved damage dice.
We provide you with options that fulfill your requirements (to the most part... *angry fist points towards the heavens*...DAMAGE DICE!!!!111000?"32!), it is not our fault if you don't take them. The only other problem you have (it is not entirely built around your preferences) is even more minor than the damage dice problem when the game gives you a lot of ways to customize your character to your liking.
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Not sure if it helps, but TarkXT made an interesting post about combat maneuvers and how they can be effectively used, even with a lower investment.
Also, thanks for the tip about extra flexibility. Glad it made its way in there.
i already said brawler couldnt fit my ideal class, but i was excited for it for the small bits it could fullfill, wich it then ceased to.
as far as what my ideal class would be? a melee focused class, capable fo fighting in most environments with equal effecitiveness. good example would be a flying enemy, so it would be able to fly in some way (crap, already invalidated brawler, but i said that would happen)
he has mobility, by wich i do not mean he has a bunch of movement like a monk but hampered by flurry of blows retarded mechanics of hurp durp i must now stand still to attack at full potential. no real class has this, as paizo seems obsessed that if you want to do good damage, you have to make yourself a sitting duck.
he uses his fists, I.E. monk/brawler level unarmed damage progression along with free unarmed combat feats like improved unarmed baked into the class without losing existing class features.
so, a bloodrager that has fisticuffs baked into the base class? i didnt see an archetype for that tho
Hmm, well, while not baked into the class, if you pick a Bloodrager bloodline with an ability you don't like, and the primalist archetype, you could pick up Brawler and Greater Brawler rage powers to implant fisticuffs into it, in addition to all the bloodrager things. Not exactly a full archetype, but it does give you the larger damage die [d6] and more of a fisticuffs feel. Possibly could take a few monk levels for Monastic Training, and even more scaling unarmed strike damage.
Is there a feat for extra uses of martial flexibility?
Seems like there should be.
There most certainly is.Is there a feat for extra uses of martial flexibility?
Seems like there should be.
So is it like two extra uses or something?
Cause I could really see grabbing power attack and then just that feat over and over again.
EDIT: Please tell me that there is an FCB for extra uses too.
There most certainly is.Is there a feat for extra uses of martial flexibility?
Seems like there should be.
So is it like two extra uses or something?
Cause I could really see grabbing power attack and then just that feat over and over again.
EDIT: Please tell me that there is an FCB for extra uses too.
I don't have ACG, so I'll differ here-
id be ok with flexibility if i could use it more honestly. yes there is a feat for it (3 more uses a day) but really? how come every shortcoming of a class has to be bandaided with a feat.
3?!?!?!?
Human brawler can get 30 extra uses (assuming you can take it multiple times)
Feats aren't all that great, but if you can get a custom list for each encounter that is really nice.