Combat-focused Investigator


Advice


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Hey guys,

Now that the ACG is out, I'm really interested in making a melee Investigator. It seems with their Studied bonus they can have a decent attack/damage bonus, and they can get a Mutagen for extra help. Does anyone have any advice on how to maximize an Investigator's combat prowess?


Bump! I was thinking a Slashing Grace/Dex build may be good, but it's a little feat intensive, even more so if I go Two-Weapon Fighting.

Grand Lodge

Focused Shot?


I plan on making one soon for PFS, or at least theory craft one, but I haven't gotten that far. I was probably going to go dex based with slashing grace and quick study is my level 3 talent (Despite not getting studied combat until 4th).

I'm also fairly certain studied strike is a trap as well. Unfortunately I don't think any archetype trades it away or I'd pick it up in a heartbeat...almost don't even care what it is.

Grand Lodge

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Is there an archetype that replaces, or alters it, into something more viable?


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As far as I can tell you, you first need to decide if you want to try to Finesse it or just go brute strength.

Dex route:
Cat's Grace: Dex +4 (Enhancement)
Mutagen: Dex +4 (Alchemical), Wis -2
Alter Self (small, pick a creature with a natural attack): Dex +2 (size) (or Reduce Person, but you take a Str penalty)

Agile AoMF for +5 hit/+5 damage on top of your base scores. Add in Studied Combat for more.

Str route:
Bull's Strength: Str +4 (Enhancement)
Mutagen: Str +4 (Alchemical), Int -2 (obviously not an ideal penalty)
Alter Self (medium): Str +2 (size) (or Enlarge Person, if you want the reach and don't mind the Dex penalty)

+5 hit/+5 damage on top of your base scores. Add in Studied Combat for more. Two-handing is better here if you can swing it, but you should also consider saving up for a Holy AoMF.

Either way, picking up an Admixture Vial will help with action economy. You can also pick up the Accelerate Drinker trait and use potions for Enlarge Person. With the Mutagen up early (long duration), you can start with a potion in hand and have all the Str buffs up at the end of round 1.

At higher levels, you want to switch from Enlarge/Reduce/Alter Self to Monstrous Physique. Pick a form with a ton of natural attacks (like a Gargoyle). Add the Holy AoMF for shenanigans.

Studied Strike isn't great, but you may as well use it once your Studied Combat rounds are up (assuming combat lasts that long).


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Is there an archetype that replaces, or alters it, into something more viable?

Nope, every archetype affects alchemy, trap finding, or poison use.


Why does everyone say studied strike is a trap? Its a free damage boost at the ens of you studied combat rounds.

I dont have acess to swashbuckler but I bet itd help this.
Dex based is my advice, agile and weapon finesse. I like knives but thats just me. I dont think two weapon would be a good idea. I think hit and run dex type is good. The bonus to hit and damage, being focused one one target at a time. This screams mpbile target killer. Get some aoo ac buffs. Posivly pick up he ranfed studied stuff incase you need to throw a dagger or for a hand xbow.

Liberty's Edge

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Okay, to truly maximize combat prowess, you go Str. For this sample build I'm modifying a Half Orc build I'm considering playing (which is a solid way to go). I'm So, without further ado, a full build (20 point-buy, 2 Traits). This is also designed to be pretty good out of combat, for the record:

Str 16+2 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 7

Archetype: Empiricist (Doesn't hurt combat unless you happen to to want poisons, which suck, and I love this archetype)

Traits: Student of Philosophy, Fate's Favored (because you grab Sacred Tattoo, obviously),

Feats:

1: Medium Armor Proficiency
3: Power Attack
5: Heavy Armor Proficiency
7: Extra Investigator Talent
9: Extra Investigator Talent

Investigator Talents:

3: Mutagen
5: Quick Study
7: Sickening Offensive, Amazing Inspiration
9: Combat Inspiration, Combine Extracts,

And from there you're a lot more free to do as you please.

That results, at 9th level, assuming a +2 Str Item and +2 Str from level (which you should do, 16 Int + Items is plenty), Haste, and Mutagen an easy +18/+18/+13 with a +1 Keen Falchion for 2d4+23 a hit or so, and critical-ing on a 15-20. And that's with minimal wealth investment. And you sicken people every time you hit them (which is pretty awesome). Bull's Strength, Alter Self, and Enlarge Person and that becomes +20/+20/+15 for 2d6+27.

That version skips Infusion (which I'd never actually do) but you could rearrange things to get that by scrapping Combine Extracts, and you asked for combat oriented.


Zwordsman wrote:
Why does everyone say studied strike is a trap? Its a free damage boost at the ens of you studied combat rounds.

Because it ends your studied combat, which is your big combat boost. You are correct in those situations where something survives that many rounds its not a bad ending (not that great either though). But seriously, how many enemies you focus the fight on live for more than 3+ rounds? Not many in most PF games. An average entire combat is about 5 rounds, most the time with multiple opponents.


Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:
Why does everyone say studied strike is a trap? Its a free damage boost at the ens of you studied combat rounds.
Because it ends your studied combat, which is your big combat boost. You are correct in those situations where something survives that many rounds its not a bad ending (not that great either though). But seriously, how many enemies you focus the fight on live for more than 3+ rounds? Not many in most PF games. An average entire combat is about 5 rounds, most the time with multiple opponents.

Thanks for the insight!

I've never played PFS, so maybe my GM's raise everything up a bit.. but we' usually have pretty gritty fights that last plenty of rounds. Though Unless it was just me vs the one guy, then yeah I suppose that not much would live past 3-4 rounds. Would be good with one of my easier GM's who use health bars haha. Not so good with the others.
Generally unless the spell caster blows out lots of their spells then most things take a few rounds in our fights, and whole combat takes a more than a few rounds. (One GM is a fan of a lot of littler fights, the other lights 1-3 giant miniboss style fights. both have rather durable builds, though the one with a buncha minibosses is one hell of an optimizer, even in our group)
(and except for me, who isn't great at smart optimizing (but amazing at weird a** builds) the other 2-3 are usually super optimized. so that might be why things are toned up).


I'm not entirely sure I'd call studied strike a trap.

It's free damage that happens after your attack has already hit. You can throw on rider effects like toppling or repositioning strike to make it worthwhile.

Currently one of the builds I'm considering is a harrier that piles on such riders.

So, using spring attack and a reach weapon you can pop in and hit a target with sickening or sapping offensive and pop out just out of there reach.

If they come after you you can hit them, blow studied strike and knock them prone with your heightened attack (buffs+studied combat+toppling strike).

At this point you can probably just pick a new target to annoy while your party fighter moves in for the kill. Otherwise you can just blow an inspiration and get a free full attack.

Nah, not really a trap but does require thought before using.

Liberty's Edge

Toppling Strike comes online at 9th level and all the other strike riders even later.

Sickening and Sapping Offensive don't require Studied Strike. So...before 9th level, there are no riders, and even after, you're giving up a Full Attack for 4d6 damage and Trip. That's...lackluster at best.

Now, just adding the damage to your last attack when Studied Combat is going away anyway is a solid call, but not earth-shatteringly god or anything.


I've been playing a combat focused in a home-brew game and it has worked out really well. The general role you'll play is striker, but with Extracts and Mutagens you'll wind up being quite tough at higher levels.

I highly recommend races which grant additional weapon proficiencies. Both Elf and Half Elf are great choices, though I prefer Half-Elf with a Strength build.

Getting Kirin Strike by level 9 is a great way to boost your damage significantly, and is also quite thematic. Note that his requires Improved Unarmed Strike by level 5 and then Kirin Style at level 7. Taking round 1 of combat to drink a buff, activate your Studied Combat and then make your Kirin Style roll will suddenly turn you into a powerhouse.

I prefer Strength builds over Dexterity builds as you don't have to pay a feat tax. Strength builds will have higher damage, but will be a bit more fragile. Dexterity builds can wind up with rather nice AC scores early on along with nice Acrobatics checks if you're going to move in combat a lot.

If you do go with a Dexterity build, a 1 level dip into Swashbuckler can get you Dex to Damage at first level. Humans Swashbuclkers can pick up Weapon Focus and Slashing Grace at first level. Alternatively, the Inspired Blade archetype grants you Weapon Finesse (Rapier) and Weapon Focus (Rapier) right at first level, allowing you to pick up Fencing Grace at first level for your Dex to Damage.

Actually, that might make me rethink my Strength preference. The Inspired Blade gets a Panache pool made up of his Cha Mod (minimum 1) and his Int Mod (Minimum 1). This means you could dump your Charisma to 7 and still wind up with a nice sized Panache pool. This build delays Studied Combat until level 5 for a huge boost in combat potential...

Silver Crusade

I'm working on a Dex-based wayang investigator, but I haven't gotten very far with him yet. I have too many PFS characters to play before I even have to worry about getting to the new classes from the ACG.


Deadmanwalking wrote:


Sickening and Sapping Offensive don't require Studied Strike. So...before 9th level, there are no riders, and even after, you're giving up a Full Attack for 4d6 damage and Trip. That's...lackluster at best.

You have to look at the whole picture.

You only get one extra attack on a full attack (sans two weapon fighting, rapid shot, or haste) this attack being at a -5. This doesn't come until 8th level.

The concept I described precludes the idea entirely in favor of mobility and reach trolling, which can get you more attacks at a higher bonus along with a solid defense. Even after you pop your studied strike, you can just get it back pretty much instantly.

You can go a more straightforward style, certainly. And in those cases full attacking works fine. But it's not the only viable option available to you.

And in the end Studied combat is far from the only tool in your tool box for boosting attack.


TarkXT wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


Sickening and Sapping Offensive don't require Studied Strike. So...before 9th level, there are no riders, and even after, you're giving up a Full Attack for 4d6 damage and Trip. That's...lackluster at best.

You have to look at the whole picture.

You only get one extra attack on a full attack (sans two weapon fighting, rapid shot, or haste) this attack being at a -5. This doesn't come until 8th level.

This is one reason I'm focused on Alter Self/Monstrous Physique. Getting as many natural attacks as possible helps make the most out of Studied Combat without the Feat tax of TWF.

I have a Spring Attacking Oracle of Metal and I found the results underwhelming.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Bull's Strength, Alter Self, and Enlarge Person and that becomes +20/+20/+15 for 2d6+27.

Note that Enlarge Person and Alter Self are both size bonuses, so they don't stack.


Javaed wrote:


Getting Kirin Strike by level 9 is a great way to boost your damage significantly, and is also quite thematic. Note that his requires Improved Unarmed Strike by level 5 and then Kirin Style at level 7. Taking round 1 of combat to drink a buff, activate your Studied Combat and then make your Kirin Style roll will suddenly turn you into a powerhouse.

Kirin Strike is a trap. It takes a swift action to enter Kirin Style, a swift action to study the creature, and a swift action to deal the damage. Which means you don't deal that extra damage before round 3. Not worth it at all.

Silver Crusade

redward wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


Sickening and Sapping Offensive don't require Studied Strike. So...before 9th level, there are no riders, and even after, you're giving up a Full Attack for 4d6 damage and Trip. That's...lackluster at best.

You have to look at the whole picture.

You only get one extra attack on a full attack (sans two weapon fighting, rapid shot, or haste) this attack being at a -5. This doesn't come until 8th level.

This is one reason I'm focused on Alter Self/Monstrous Physique. Getting as many natural attacks as possible helps make the most out of Studied Combat without the Feat tax of TWF.

I have a Spring Attacking Oracle of Metal and I found the results underwhelming.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Bull's Strength, Alter Self, and Enlarge Person and that becomes +20/+20/+15 for 2d6+27.
Note that Enlarge Person and Alter Self are both size bonuses, so they don't stack.

Nor do bull's strength and a belt of giant's strength.


Brotato wrote:
Javaed wrote:


Getting Kirin Strike by level 9 is a great way to boost your damage significantly, and is also quite thematic. Note that his requires Improved Unarmed Strike by level 5 and then Kirin Style at level 7. Taking round 1 of combat to drink a buff, activate your Studied Combat and then make your Kirin Style roll will suddenly turn you into a powerhouse.
Kirin Strike is a trap. It takes a swift action to enter Kirin Style, a swift action to study the creature, and a swift action to deal the damage. Which means you don't deal that extra damage before round 3. Not worth it at all.

As someone currently playing an Investigator with Kirin Strike, I can attest to this. It's great when it works. It doesn't often.

And the DC 15+CR for the identify is harder to hit than you might think.

Scarab Sages

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I actually proposed a sample build (focused on tripping) here. But for a more "Standard Issue" Investigator...

Get an "Inspired" Weapon, get Amazing Inspiration, be a Half-Elf and get those favored class bonuses, and get Combat Inspiration.

Inspired weapon Property (+1), ACG pg214-215:
This special ability can be placed only on simple weapons, hand crossbows, rapiers, shortbows, short swords, and sword canes. In the hands of an investigator, an inspired weapon reduces the cost of using inspiration on attack rolls made with the weapon. The weapon’s wielder needs to expend only one use of inspiration to augment his attack rolls with this weapon, as with the combat inspiration investigator talent. If the wielder already has the combat inspiration talent, the wielder must still expend one use of inspiration, but in addition to adding the result of the inspiration roll to the attack roll, the investigator adds twice the result of the inspiration roll to the weapon’s damage roll.

Boom. Basically guaranteed hit that deals an additional 2*(1d8 + level/4), all for one Inspiration (average 13 at level 9). You're welcome.

Unfortunately, it restricts you to your base proficiency, but oh well.

Getting "Inspired Strike" to spent another Inspiration to add another 1d8 + level/4 isn't quite as efficient, but it stacks (since it's a separate roll). You may want to get "Extra Inspiration" once or twice, though.

redward wrote:
Brotato wrote:
Javaed wrote:


Getting Kirin Strike by level 9 is a great way to boost your damage significantly, and is also quite thematic. Note that his requires Improved Unarmed Strike by level 5 and then Kirin Style at level 7. Taking round 1 of combat to drink a buff, activate your Studied Combat and then make your Kirin Style roll will suddenly turn you into a powerhouse.
Kirin Strike is a trap. It takes a swift action to enter Kirin Style, a swift action to study the creature, and a swift action to deal the damage. Which means you don't deal that extra damage before round 3. Not worth it at all.

As someone currently playing an Investigator with Kirin Strike, I can attest to this. It's great when it works. It doesn't often.

And the DC 15+CR for the identify is harder to hit than you might think.

Nonsense! With a 1d6/8 inspiration added for FREE, only the most awful of rolls should be putting you into that camp. Three rounds to see progress, though? Yeah that stings. Meanwhile your Studied Combat timer is ticking away...

Seriously, though: GET AN INSPIRED WEAPON

Liberty's Edge

TarkXT wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


Sickening and Sapping Offensive don't require Studied Strike. So...before 9th level, there are no riders, and even after, you're giving up a Full Attack for 4d6 damage and Trip. That's...lackluster at best.

You have to look at the whole picture.

You only get one extra attack on a full attack (sans two weapon fighting, rapid shot, or haste) this attack being at a -5. This doesn't come until 8th level.

You have Haste in-class by that point...why wouldn't you use it? It's the best buff in the game, after all. Foregoing it for 4d6 damage and maybe a trip (and one that gives you -5 each to hit and damage or costs you an Inspiration) is probably a poor life choice. Now, some of the higher level tricks would probably be worth it...if they came online before 13th level. They do not.

TarkXT wrote:
The concept I described precludes the idea entirely in favor of mobility and reach trolling, which can get you more attacks at a higher bonus along with a solid defense.

No reason you can't reach troll without doing the Studied Strike talents/build. There are lots of ways to do that little trick. And they can easily result in both a full attack and attacks of opportunity if you handle it right.

TarkXT wrote:
Even after you pop your studied strike, you can just get it back pretty much instantly.

At one Inspiration a pop. That's not cheap considering how useful Inspiration is. And you need to spend the first round not attacking or you won't be able to do this for your AoO.

TarkXT wrote:
You can go a more straightforward style, certainly. And in those cases full attacking works fine. But it's not the only viable option available to you.

I'm deeply skeptical of any build that doesn't involve full attacking being all that viable. Fun? Sure, potentially. Optimal? Not in the least. Effective? Eh...I'm doubtful. Especially one who can only trip things (in terms of conditions inflicte), and only at cost...a bunch of stuff is immune to trip, making building something based on it less than great, decision-wise.

Basically, this build only comes online at 9th level, and is very shaky at 9th-12th with only Trip. Then it gets Steal and Reposition at 13th, which aren't much better...and nothing until 17th, when most games are over, and even for those that aren't, nice as Blind and Deafened are...they aren't huge obstacles for the things you face at that point.

TarkXT wrote:
And in the end Studied combat is far from the only tool in your tool box for boosting attack.

That's certainly true, but it's the only one that's completely free of charge. The first time you use it anyway.

redward wrote:
Note that Enlarge Person and Alter Self are both size bonuses, so they don't stack.

You're right, my bad. Call everything -1 from what I listed, then.

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Nor do bull's strength and a belt of giant's strength.

That one I took into account. The belt I assume is only +2 so Bull's strength's bonus is still better even sans stacking.

Liberty's Edge

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@Forty2:

Oh, god. I hadn't looked at the magic items yet. That's absurd. The Half Elf bonus is, indeed, great, but even on a non-Half Elf...that's just fabulous.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


Sickening and Sapping Offensive don't require Studied Strike. So...before 9th level, there are no riders, and even after, you're giving up a Full Attack for 4d6 damage and Trip. That's...lackluster at best.

You have to look at the whole picture.

You only get one extra attack on a full attack (sans two weapon fighting, rapid shot, or haste) this attack being at a -5. This doesn't come until 8th level.

You have Haste in-class by that point...why wouldn't you use it? It's the best buff in the game, after all. Foregoing it for 4d6 damage and maybe a trip (and one that gives you -5 each to hit and damage or costs you an Inspiration) is probably a poor life choice. Now, some of the higher level tricks would probably be worth it...if they came online before 13th level. They do not.

It's an alchemists haste. Which only affects you. Chances are there's someoene else who can cast it.

And honestly I think you'd have to see it at work. It does a lot more than what you've described.


Can you put Inspired on an Amulet of Mighty Fists? Unarmed Strikes are on the Simple Weapons table, so I'd imagine you could.

Scarab Sages

redward wrote:
Can you put Inspired on an Amulet of Mighty Fists? Unarmed Strikes are on the Simple Weapons table, so I'd imagine you could.

I want to know the same thing, but with a twist. For my PFS Character, I dipped two levels in Alchemist (Grenadier), hoping to use feral mutagen with Studied combat by 6. Since the Amulet also applies to natural attacks, getting both Agile and Inspired on that would allow me to absolutely destroy everything At level 11 when "Combat Inspiration." can finally switch on. For now, though; I gave him Inspired Bomb. If this actually does work, bully for me! I'll eat the 5 prestige and retrain the discovery. If it doesn't, ah well. I'm already dervish dancing with an alchemical weapon coating at reach. Tiefling Prehensile Tail: Swift to grab the acid, move to coat the weapon, standard to hit for 1d6 + 4 (Slashing) and 1d6 + 4 (Acid).

My gut says it would work, but it's a question for the rules board. If it does: a level-dip in brawler would not go amiss.


Don't think so strictly speaking. But getting it on a longspear is more than enough for me.

One thing I have noted is that it does strack with inspired strike.

Welp time to add half elves as the really really scary damage dealers for investigators.

Scarab Sages

TarkXT wrote:

Don't think so strictly speaking. But getting it on a longspear is more than enough for me.

One thing I have noted is that it does strack with inspired strike.

Welp time to add half elves as the really really scary damage dealers for investigators.

Yep, I noted that earlier. It's a flash in the pan, though - no longevity. You'd be getting 3-5 hits in like that before you're out of Inspiration for the day. As I mentioned earlier: it's not terribly efficient. Double the Inspiration for 1.5x the extra damage? I'll pass.

But if you alternate half-elf and full elf racial favored (+ 1/3 more inspiration for the pool)... well then. (Which you CAN DO.)


Forty2 wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

Don't think so strictly speaking. But getting it on a longspear is more than enough for me.

One thing I have noted is that it does strack with inspired strike.

Welp time to add half elves as the really really scary damage dealers for investigators.

Yep, I noted that earlier. It's a flash in the pan, though - no longevity. You'd be getting 3-5 hits in like that before you're out of Inspiration for the day. As I mentioned earlier: it's not terribly efficient. Double the Inspiration for 1.5x the extra damage? I'll pass.

But if you alternate half-elf and full elf racial favored (+ 1/3 more inspiration for the pool)... well then. (Which you CAN DO.)

It works fine if you play less like an alchemist and more like a magus. Which is to say you emphasize more intelligence and try to get more attacks in order to get as much out of studied combat as possible. IT's not seomthign you want to do every attack but if you're finishing an opponent that quick.....

Then of course you can include thigns like Tenacious/Amazing inspiration.

Right now I'm struggling with such a half elf build. My challenge is trying to get more attacks without TWF (the dex requirements kill me) or Eldritch heritage for claws (don't last long enough) and I want to have the solution viable around 5th level.

Scarab Sages

TarkXT wrote:
Forty2 wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

Don't think so strictly speaking. But getting it on a longspear is more than enough for me.

One thing I have noted is that it does strack with inspired strike.

Welp time to add half elves as the really really scary damage dealers for investigators.

Yep, I noted that earlier. It's a flash in the pan, though - no longevity. You'd be getting 3-5 hits in like that before you're out of Inspiration for the day. As I mentioned earlier: it's not terribly efficient. Double the Inspiration for 1.5x the extra damage? I'll pass.

But if you alternate half-elf and full elf racial favored (+ 1/3 more inspiration for the pool)... well then. (Which you CAN DO.)

It works fine if you play less like an alchemist and more like a magus. Which is to say you emphasize more intelligence and try to get more attacks in order to get as much out of studied combat as possible. IT's not seomthign you want to do every attack but if you're finishing an opponent that quick.....

Then of course you can include thigns like Tenacious/Amazing inspiration.

Right now I'm struggling with such a half elf build. My challenge is trying to get more attacks without TWF (the dex requirements kill me) or Eldritch heritage for claws (don't last long enough) and I want to have the solution viable around 5th level.

But all of the cool talents only come online by level 7/9 and later... Best bet? Dip One Level in something else first, preferably a full BAB class and/or a class that nets you a bonus feat. You won't see the Inspired Weapon shine until level 10, but you will have options in the meantime.

Brawler is a good choice if you want go the Inspired Amulet of Mighty Fists route. Martial Flexibility ain't exactly Flurry and a Feat, but you'll have versatility, which is nice (And qualify for Power Attack at lvl 1). Momma Monk ain't bad either, especially for synergy with the Spiritualist archetype.

A level in classic Fighter never hurt anyone. Fort Saves and a feat? OK then. Skills'll suffer for it, though...

As someone mentioned earlier, a dip into Inspired Blade could get you (the future) Fencing Grace at lvl 1. Easy Dex to Damage, TWF with a dagger (unfortunately no finesse on that) and get the full benefit of your studied combat.

Have you considered going Ranged? Dip Fighter (Archer) for PBS & Precise at 1, Weapon Focus (Shortbow) at lvl 3 (a requirement, unfortunately), Quick Study at 4 (there no level prereq), Then pick up the feat "Ranged Study" at 5, allowing you to immediately use your shortbow for Studied Combat out to 30'. Then Deadly Aim at 7, etc.


For my PFS Investigator I did a 2-level dip into Master of Many Styles (I know, I know) to pick up Improved Unarmed Strike/Kirin Style/Kirin Strike and Evasion, as well as a bump to Fort Saves.

I made my character during the Playtest, so I was trying to keep my options open for the final product. If Studied Combat had been in its current state then, I probably would have stuck with pure Investigator.

I decided to pick up PBS, Precise Shot and Focused Shot for a moderately effective ranged attack, with the option to go into Unarmed Strike or Short Sword melee with a Mutagen, Enlarge Person/Alter Self and/or Bull's Strength.

I've been unimpressed with Kirin Strike thus far. It's great when it hits (especially when stacked on top of Focused Shot for 3 x Int Mod to damage), but often the combat is over, or the target you've identified has already dropped by the time it winds up.

My current plan is to retrain back into full Investigator at level 9 when all of the fun combat options become available. Monstrous Physique (more than 1/day, at least), Combat Inspiration, etc. and begin wading into melee.

I'm not suggesting this as a way to go. Just passing on my experience thus far.


Forty2 wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Forty2 wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

Don't think so strictly speaking. But getting it on a longspear is more than enough for me.

One thing I have noted is that it does strack with inspired strike.

Welp time to add half elves as the really really scary damage dealers for investigators.

Yep, I noted that earlier. It's a flash in the pan, though - no longevity. You'd be getting 3-5 hits in like that before you're out of Inspiration for the day. As I mentioned earlier: it's not terribly efficient. Double the Inspiration for 1.5x the extra damage? I'll pass.

But if you alternate half-elf and full elf racial favored (+ 1/3 more inspiration for the pool)... well then. (Which you CAN DO.)

It works fine if you play less like an alchemist and more like a magus. Which is to say you emphasize more intelligence and try to get more attacks in order to get as much out of studied combat as possible. IT's not seomthign you want to do every attack but if you're finishing an opponent that quick.....

Then of course you can include thigns like Tenacious/Amazing inspiration.

Right now I'm struggling with such a half elf build. My challenge is trying to get more attacks without TWF (the dex requirements kill me) or Eldritch heritage for claws (don't last long enough) and I want to have the solution viable around 5th level.

But all of the cool talents only come online by level 7/9 and later... Best bet? Dip One Level in something else first, preferably a full BAB class and/or a class that nets you a bonus feat. You won't see the Inspired Weapon shine until level 10, but you will have options in the meantime.

Brawler is a good choice if you want go the Inspired Amulet of Mighty Fists route. Martial Flexibility ain't exactly Flurry and a Feat, but you'll have versatility, which is nice (And qualify for Power Attack at lvl 1). Momma Monk ain't bad either, especially for synergy with the...

No, no dipping. My thinking is if you dip the build is already failing.

Scarab Sages

TarkXT wrote:

<Quote chain clipped>

No, no dipping. My thinking is if you dip the build is already failing.

I can understand the ideal. You can always take Inspired Strike earlier for that extra damage, but you won't be doing the big numbers until Amazing Inspiration comes on at 7 and Combat Inspiration comes on at 9.

For a Dex Build.. perhaps Weapon Finesse/TWF/Inspired Strike by five? If you're playing PFS, you can always put the Agile Property on a couple of Sickles/Daggers/Whatever and hold off on Inspired until you get closer to 9. (You could also use Sickles as discount reach/trip weapons for tripping with the long arm extract)

Have you considered dumping Wis and Cha and going Empiricist? They have little need for those stats at lvl 2, anyway. Risky Proposition, but may be valuable for that extra physical point.

Also: If you're in a bind, don't forget that Half-Elves can pick two favored classes with Multitalented.

EDIT: If Investigators got access to Combat trick, it would be one thing. However: They don't. You only get ten feats that can be dedicated to combat (eleven if you're human).


Hmmmmm twf may be my only option sadly for half elves.


Question, is there a monk's robe/Robe of Arcane Heritage equivalent for Investigators?(as a bonus question, how about for Slayers?) Such an item might be really key to making a build like this work (much like Gloves of Dueling for the fighter...).


now i don't have the book right now, so i'm going off memory but..
I thought the inspiried weapon property specifically listed only usuable with the weapons listed in the investigator class. and specifically excluded natural weapons?

someone with access to it might wanna take a gander i suppose.

Scarab Sages

Yep it can only be added to "simple weapons, hand crossbows, rapiers, shortbows, short swords and sword canes"


Unarmed strike is a simple weapon.

Feral Combat Training treats the natural atack its aplied to as an unarmed strike in all things.

Does this allow you to put it on an amulet of mighty fists? No. But if it did that's how it would be feasible.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Okay, to truly maximize combat prowess, you go Str. For this sample build I'm modifying a Half Orc build I'm considering playing (which is a solid way to go). I'm So, without further ado, a full build (20 point-buy, 2 Traits). This is also designed to be pretty good out of combat, for the record:

Str 16+2 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 7

Archetype: Empiricist (Doesn't hurt combat unless you happen to to want poisons, which suck, and I love this archetype)

Traits: Student of Philosophy, Fate's Favored (because you grab Sacred Tattoo, obviously),

Feats:

1: Medium Armor Proficiency
3: Power Attack
5: Heavy Armor Proficiency
7: Extra Investigator Talent
9: Extra Investigator Talent

Investigator Talents:

3: Mutagen
5: Quick Study
7: Sickening Offensive, Amazing Inspiration
9: Combat Inspiration, Combine Extracts,

And from there you're a lot more free to do as you please.

That results, at 9th level, assuming a +2 Str Item and +2 Str from level (which you should do, 16 Int + Items is plenty), Haste, and Mutagen an easy +18/+18/+13 with a +1 Keen Falchion for 2d4+23 a hit or so, and critical-ing on a 15-20. And that's with minimal wealth investment. And you sicken people every time you hit them (which is pretty awesome). Bull's Strength, Alter Self, and Enlarge Person and that becomes +20/+20/+15 for 2d6+27.

That version skips Infusion (which I'd never actually do) but you could rearrange things to get that by scrapping Combine Extracts, and you asked for combat oriented.

Stupid question, how do you get mutagen as an Investigator talent?

Liberty's Edge

TarkXT wrote:

Don't think so strictly speaking. But getting it on a longspear is more than enough for me.

One thing I have noted is that it does strack with inspired strike.

Welp time to add half elves as the really really scary damage dealers for investigators.

Yep. Even if not doing this, the Half Elf is officially the optimal combat Investigator now.

TarkXT wrote:
No, no dipping. My thinking is if you dip the build is already failing.

Agreed.

Ooze licker wrote:
Stupid question, how do you get mutagen as an Investigator talent?

It's a listed option under 'Alchemist Discoveries'. So...you just do.

Scarab Sages

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I think I have an Investigator Build to be proud of here.

(Thread)

A possible Alternative to the Fauchard would just be to use Sickles w/ Long Arm, but I like being able to apply two stats to my Trips way too much. I'll still be abusing Long Arm, just for my Spiked Gauntlet AoOs. (If I'm getting Spiked Gauntlets wrong, and I can't use one while keeping hold of a fauchard, let me know. Seriously. The build depends on it.)

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