Feral Combat Training combined with other Natural Attacks


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A PC as Monk Levels, Feral Training - Bite and a Bite and 2 Claw Attacks.

He chooses to make a full Attack using 3 Unarmed Strikes - replaced with his Bite, + his Bite + 2 Claw attacks.

Question - are the subsequent natural attacks that aren't Feral Combat Training replacements for UAS's secondary attacks or Primary?

1st UAS (Bite) BAB
2nd UAS (Bite) -5 BAB
3rd UAS (Bite) -10 BAB

Bite - BAB or -5 BAB
Claw BAB or -5 BAB
Claw BAB or -5 BAB

Basically does using Feral Training turn those UAS's into a pure Natural Attack attack sequence or does the attack sequence remain a Weapon + Natural attacks sequence. I think the latter but am not sure.

Thanks

Attached Rules info

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Normally a monk who has natural attacks (such as a lizardfolk monk with claw attacks) cannot use those natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows. Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.


First, how do you have two bite attacks? It's not permitted unless the creature has two mouths.

The rest of your example is a bit unclear to me. Feral Combat Training applies to a single natural weapon type, so claw or bite, not both, so that needs to be specified. Also, bites are strange in that they vary between defaulting to primary or secondary depending on where you get them. Toothy, for instance is a primary attack bite, while Tusked is secondary.

Is this a flurry of blows or just a full attack action?


Iron Giant, He doesn't have 2 different bites. He's saying he want's to do a full attack subbing Unarmed strikes for bites, To be able to get iterative bites. Then he wants to use all his natural attacks like normal after using Iterative attacks.

Stephen Ede
You can't do iterative attacks with your bite as far as I know, Unless using flurry of blows, in which case you can't add natural attacks afterwards still. So your example can't work.


I see now. Yeah, if you're doing a full attack action feral combat training isn't going to change much. You'll still do all of the unarmed strikes as normal then ALL of the natural attacks are done after with a -5 penalty (because they're treated as secondary attacks). I've read arguments that the Feral Combat Trained attack always gets a full strength bonus on damage and can use the monks unarmed damage die when used with the monks "unarmed strike" rule, but I'm highly skeptical of that one.

The important thing to keep in mind is that FCT doesn't turn natural attacks into unarmed strikes. The only instance that this sort of happens is in the flurry of blows, but still the natural attacks are no more unarmed strikes than a monk weapon would be in a flurry.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Iron Giant, He doesn't have 2 different bites. He's saying he want's to do a full attack subbing Unarmed strikes for bites, To be able to get iterative bites. Then he wants to use all his natural attacks like normal after using Iterative attacks.

Stephen Ede
You can't do iterative attacks with your bite as far as I know, Unless using flurry of blows, in which case you can't add natural attacks afterwards still. So your example can't work.

Iron Giant's confusion is well founded, because if you are right, then Stephen has a misunderstanding of how claws work

Stephen Ede wrote:
.He chooses to make a full Attack using 3 Unarmed Strikes - replaced with his Bite, + his Bite + 2 Claw attacks.

He says 3 unarmed strike are replaced, but he then lists 4 attacks he wants to replace them with.

I think we need more info for clarifications. What does this monk's attack block look like when he is just using unarmed strikes in a flurry of blows? Or what level is the monk?


Also note that you have to take FCT once per natural weapon (type). So in order to use bites and claws in a flurry routine, you'd actually have to take FCT twice (and consequently, you'd have to take Weapon Focus twice, too).


lemeres wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Iron Giant, He doesn't have 2 different bites. He's saying he want's to do a full attack subbing Unarmed strikes for bites, To be able to get iterative bites. Then he wants to use all his natural attacks like normal after using Iterative attacks.

Stephen Ede
You can't do iterative attacks with your bite as far as I know, Unless using flurry of blows, in which case you can't add natural attacks afterwards still. So your example can't work.

Iron Giant's confusion is well founded, because if you are right, then Stephen has a misunderstanding of how claws work

Stephen Ede wrote:
.He chooses to make a full Attack using 3 Unarmed Strikes - replaced with his Bite, + his Bite + 2 Claw attacks.

He says 3 unarmed strike are replaced, but he then lists 4 attacks he wants to replace them with.

I think we need more info for clarifications. What does this monk's attack block look like when he is just using unarmed strikes in a flurry of blows? Or what level is the monk?

Lemeres, notice he's wanting to replace all the Unarmed strikes with bite attacks.

Then in addition to his "unarmed strikes" he wants to make an attack with all his natural attacks.

He's listing out what he thinks a full-attack action would look like. 3 punches and three natural attacks. All legal. His question is wanting to replace the punches with bites. And then if that's possible what would that do to the normal natural attacks.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Lemeres, notice he's wanting to replace all the Unarmed strikes with bite attacks.

Then in addition to his "unarmed strikes" he wants to make an attack with all his natural attacks.

He's listing out what he thinks a full-attack action would look like. 3 punches and three natural attacks. All legal. His question is wanting to replace the punches with bites. And then if that's possible what would that do to the normal natural attacks.

All I am saying is that confusion breeds confusion. With the bit I quoted, it seemed like he wanted to replace his unarmed strikes with his whole set of natural attacks.

That, and the fact that we were thrown off that he seemed to be using a regular full attack and replacing those unarmed strikes, rather than using a flurry.

This whole thing needed untangling.


dot


It's the comma in his full attack sequence that clears up his intent. He wants to make

3 Unarmed Strikes - replaced with his Bite,
+ his normal bite
+ his normal claws.

He is using a full attack instead of a flurry.

SO he's asking,
1) Can I replace unarmed strikes for my bite in a normal full attack sequence?
2)If I can, can I still use all my normal natural attacks that I'd get?
3)If I can, what are the penalties? Since I'm not combining manufactured with natural attacks would the attacks under 2 be at full BAB, or would the be at -5 because they're still being combined with iteratives.

There, let the confusion be cleared up as to what he's asking.


Now my answer the questions:
1)No
2)you can't
3)you can't

Also, if you flurry to get your bites to replace unarmed strikes in the flurry you can't use your normal natural attack sequence of bite + 2 claws afterwards.

So option are flurry, or all natural attacks, or punches that can't be replaced + your natural attacks.


Can't use FCT to replace a regular UAS with a natural weapon. That only applies to flurry.

If you want to combine all attacks, make the UAS with a kick or headbutt or whatever, but nit a punch. That way you can still use your claws (albeit at -5 BAB and 1/2 STR). Bite (if that's the one with FCT) will still get Monk's UAS damage, no matter when you use itvin the sequence, though.


@ Stephen Ede

There was an FAQ that clarifies Feral Combat Training. It says, among other things, that you can use your natural weapon as if it were a Monk Weapon.

Feral Combat Training FAQ

FAQ wrote:

Normally a monk who has natural attacks (such as a lizardfolk monk with claw attacks) cannot use those natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows (Core Rulebook 57). Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.

The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.

So for your first attack routine,

Stephen Ede wrote:

1st UAS (Bite) BAB

2nd UAS (Bite) -5 BAB
3rd UAS (Bite) -10 BAB

From the FAQ, I extrapolate that with Feral Combat Training you are allowed to use these strikes iteratively in the same manner as iterative strikes are allowed with a manufactured Monk Weapon like a Sai. If your BAB is +11, then your first bite is allowed at +11, your second at +6, and your third at +1. So, it looks like you are spot on about that.

I’m not sure why you want to, since you can use Flurry of Blows normally with any combination of Bites, unarmed strikes, or other monk weapons. Also, you could just make 3 unarmed strikes in just this way, or you could make 3 strikes this way with any other weapon, like an Earthbreaker hammer or a Greatsword. Who cares if 0-3 of your full-attack action attacks are bites? Until you share more with us about your character build, your question about this attack routine seems purely academic. But I sure do ask purely academic questions for the purpose of developing my character builds, so I hope this helps.

Your second routine,

Stephen Ede wrote:

Bite - BAB or -5 BAB

Claw BAB or -5 BAB
Claw BAB or -5 BAB

You can make your bite and both claw attacks, and you take no penalty. Even with Feral Combat Training, your Bite Attack is still a Bite Attack, so you don't suffer a -5 on your Claw attacks due to combining natural and manufactured weapons. Since Both Bites and Claws are primary natural attacks, none of them will suffer any penalties. Fretgod recently convinced me of this. Look in the Bestiary at the Tiger, and I think you will see that a tiger can make a bite attack and 2 claw attacks, takes no penalties, and doesn't have the Multiattack Feat.


Iron Giant wrote:
I've read arguments that the Feral Combat Trained attack always gets a full strength bonus on damage and can use the monks unarmed damage die when used with the monks "unarmed strike" rule, but I'm highly skeptical of that one.

You may lay your skepticism down about whether Feral Combat Training allows Steven Ede to use his Monk Unarmed Strike Damage in place of his Bite damage. It does. He can.

Feral Combat Training FAQ

FCT FAQ wrote:

Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?

Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.


Based on the FAQ that says he can treat his Bite attack as a Monk Weapon, and the fact that his bite remains a bite, given something like a +11 BAB, he can make 5 attacks with his claws and bites.

+11 Bite
+11 Claw
+11 Claw
+6 Bite
+1 Bite.


Stephen Ede, what you are suggesting doesn't work.

Feral Combat training allows you to swap your unarmed strikes for a specific natural attack when making a flurry of blows. When making a flurry of blows you cannot make any natural attacks, with the exception of replacing attacks with FCT. So when making a flurry you can never gain additional attacks with natural attacks, because at best you can replace an unarmed strike for a natural attack keeping the same number of attacks.

If you instead make a regular full attack action you can't substitute natural attacks for unarmed strikes because FCT doesn't allow you to. It only works on Flurry. So you could make your natural attacks in addition to your normal full attack routine (that isn't a flurry). However, because you will be using manufactured weapons (unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons despite that being really confusing for most people) and therefore any and all natural attacks are made as secondary natural attacks using BAB -5 and getting only half strength damage on the attack.


Claxon is exactly right. Your options are:
"full attack with manufactured weapons (includes unarmed strike but not natural weapons)" + "all natural attacks are secondary and no reusing a limb" or
"flurry of blows and replace some or all of your unarmed strikes with bite" + "no other natural attacks because flurry says so" or
"full attack with natural weapons only".


claxon wrote:
If you instead make a regular full attack action you can't substitute natural attacks for unarmed strikes because FCT doesn't allow you to. It only works on Flurry.

Claxon, your interpretation of FCT is flatly contradicted by the description of the feat. It says you can apply effects that augment unarmed strikes. The FAQ states that the feat lets you treat the natural attack as if it were a Monk Weapon.

It most certainly does NOT "only work on Flurry."


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
claxon wrote:
If you instead make a regular full attack action you can't substitute natural attacks for unarmed strikes because FCT doesn't allow you to. It only works on Flurry.

Claxon, your interpretation of FCT is flatly contradicted by the description of the feat. It says you can apply effects that augment unarmed strikes. The FAQ states that the feat lets you treat the natural attack as if it were a Monk Weapon.

It most certainly does NOT "only work on Flurry."

Nope.

The monk weapon quality only means that:

Quote:
Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows (see Classes).

The monk weapon quality doesn't actually do anything else.


The FAQ was addressing the question of how the natural attack is intended to work with Flurry of Blows, but the description of the Feat states that that you can apply to the selected natural attack all effects that augment unarmed strikes.


I'll grant you, I am extrapolating in my interpretation of the FAQ, but you are way overstating the limitations of FCT.


Feral Combat Training is doing 2 things, neither of which allow you to do an iterative attack with a Natural Weapon, as Stephen is trying to do.

1: It allows you to use the specified natural weapon (the Bite) as part of a Flurry of Blows. This is all the "Monk Weapon" part of the feat means; this doesn't apply as Stephen is doing a standard full attack.

2: It allows you to apply all effects that augment unarmed strikes. So you could do your Monk Unarmed damage to enhance your Bite damage as part of your standard Claw/Claw/Bite sequence, whether as primary natural weapons or as secondary ones after an iterative attack sequence. As well as all the various Unarmed Strike feats.

However, an iterative attack sequence is not "an effect that augments unarmed strikes". It's just how you attack with non-natural weapons, including unarmed damage without any enhancements at all. There's no augment to apply.

I do wonder how feats like Improved Natural Attack, the spell Strong Jaw, and non-feat/non-spell effects (like the element damage of higher-level Bloodline claw attacks, or the Bleed effects of the Tengu Blood Beak) would interact with applying your Monk Unarmed Strike damage to a Natural Weapon.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
The FAQ was addressing the question of how the natural attack is intended to work with Flurry of Blows, but the description of the Feat states that that you can apply to the selected natural attack all effects that augment unarmed strikes.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I'll grant you, I am extrapolating in my interpretation of the FAQ, but you are way overstating the limitations of FCT.

Scott, being able to make iterative attacks is not an effect that augments unarmed strikes. The line is mostly about being able to apply feats that would normally only work with unarmed strikes to your natural weapons. It also works with anything that modifies how an unarmed strike normally works, but making iterative attacks isn't a modification.

We've had this argument before in another thread, and you continue to be wrong and misinterpret what this feat does. I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, but you are consistently giving out incorrect information.

I'm not even sure what argument you're trying to make by quoting the FAQs. There is literally nothing in the FCT feat text or the FAQ's that supports your position.

Also, I am not overstating the limitations of FCT. The part about "it only works on flurry" was clearly in reference to replacing attacks. You can only replace flurry attacks, and that is not an overstatement of its limitations.

Feral Combat Training has two effects:
1) A single natural attack benefits from feats or other effects which modify how your unarmed strikes function.
2) A single natural attack can be used to replace attacks that you would make during a flurry of blows, as the natural attack gains the monk weapon quality. Flurry still has it's normal restrictions otherwise, including not making any natural attacks except those you replace during the Flurry.


Claxon wrote:
Scott, being able to make iterative attacks is not an effect that augments unarmed strikes. The line is mostly about being able to apply feats that would normally only work with unarmed strikes to your natural weapons. It also works with anything that modifies how an unarmed strike normally works, but making iterative attacks isn't a modification.

I agree with that. It was an extrapolation from the FAQ saying that FCT allows the character to treat the natural attack as a Monk Weapon that I offer as rationale for FCT allowing iterative bite attacks, not the text of the FCT Benefit.

I'll assert again that I have been convinced that he can make his bite attack and his 2 claw attacks without penalty.

Claxon wrote:
We've had this argument before in another thread, and you continue to be wrong and misinterpret what this feat does. I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, but you are consistently giving out incorrect information.

It was a different argument. Similar, but different

The information I am giving is not wrong at all. I am linking directly to the source of my information, and I am carefully explaining my rationale. There is nothing deceptive about what I'm saying. Interpretation is not information. Argument is not evidence. I am making clearer distinctions between those than most.

You may disagree with my interpretation, of the rules. I am a creative player, and I am willing to take risks. But if you think the facts I am quoting are false, I would very much like to know. I am trying to get at the truth here, not ramrod my version of the truth down people's throats.

Claxon wrote:

Feral Combat Training has two effects:

1) A single natural attack benefits from feats or other effects which modify how your unarmed strikes function.
2) A single natural attack can be used to replace attacks that you would make during a flurry of blows, as the natural attack gains the monk weapon quality. Flurry still has it's normal restrictions otherwise, including not making any natural attacks except those you replace during the Flurry.

I agree with this interpretation of FCT. It really felt you were overstating before.

Sczarni

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Based on the FAQ that says he can treat his Bite attack as a Monk Weapon, and the fact that his bite remains a bite, given something like a +11 BAB, he can make 5 attacks with his claws and bites.

+11 Bite
+11 Claw
+11 Claw
+6 Bite
+1 Bite.

No. This is wrong.

The way that FCT interacts with FoB's is set. The above example does not conform to that in anyway.

If we were to assume a Monk with a BAB of +11 (so that's a 15th level monk), his or her FoB routine would be as follows;

+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3

Now, with FCT he could substitute any number of these attacks with a natural attack (or all of them). But any combination is still limited by the FoB mechanic.

If the same Monk was capable of making a Bite & 2 Claw attacks he/she could elect to make a Full Attack (not a FoB), and that full attack sequence would look like this;

+11 Bite/+11 Claw/+11 Claw

Natural Attacks do not get iteratives; but being that Claws & Bites are primary he/she can make each of them at full BAB.

Additionally, the same Monk could make a Full Attack (not FoB) that looks like this;

+11 Unarmed Strike/+6 Unarmed Strike/+1 Unarmed Strike/+6 Bite/+6 Claw/+6 Claw

In this instance the Natural Attacks (Claws/Bite) become secondary and are made at BAB -5, but the UAS follow the rules manufactured weapons and receive iteratives.

(Please note that these examples do not take into account Weapon Focus, which is a prerequisite for Feral Combat Training).

On a semi-related topic: Are Characters allowed to select Feral Combat Training more than once? I thought there was some limitation that you could only take a feat once unless it had the special caveat expressly stating "you can take this feat more than once"... Going from memory here, but I don't think FCT has that caveat? Which would mean that a character with multiple types of Natural Attacks could only fold one (the one he takes FCT for) into a Flurry of Blows.


Claxon and Krodjin are correct. FCT allows you to use a natural weapon with Flurry, not substitute a natural weapon whenever you'd get an US attack.


I think the argument being made is as follows;

Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon.

I think the rule interpretation is just that, the natural attack is now a (monk) weapon. As weapons get itterative attacks it would follow logically that the (monk) weapons would also get it.

Look at it this way. RAW you could do the following at 11 Bab:

Make 3 normal unarmed strikes at +11/+6/+1. Imagine all these attacks are headbutts.

RAW you can make natural attacks as well as your itteratives at -5.

The sequence would then be +11/+6/+1 (weapon/unarmed attacks) and +6/+6 for the claw attacks (and possibly another +6 bite if we argue that the unarmed strikes were not headbutts but kicks).

As I see it people here are arguing that the RAW "as if it were a monk weapon" means that you could replace the weapon attacks/unarmed attacks with bite attacks.

You would then indeed get +11/+6/+1 bites (at x1.5+ 0.5 strength with Dragon Style/Ferocity), and +6/+6 claws at 0,5x Str.

I am not sure if I agree with this interpretation. However, since it is hardly unbalancing (you'd get less attacks then with FoB) I wouldn;t mind too much. Might change if you throw in Synthesist/Form of the Dragon with Martial Versatility shenanigans.

Errrm, 9 Brawler/1 Sorcerer/10 DD anybody? 16/11/6/1 itteratives (with your hind legs) and bite, 2x claw, 2x wing and a tailslap. Get Muti-Attacks and go to town :)


Bambear. A "monk" weapon is a Special Weapon Features of a weapon. Like tripping or reach. It's not saying it's now able to be used as a weapon, but that you can flurry with it.

*Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows (*see FAQ/Errata.)

If a weapon is specified as a monk weapon, does that mean that monks are automatically proficient with that weapon?

No. It means that they can use this weapon while using flurry of blows. It does not mean that it is added to the list of weapons that a monk is proficient with, unless the weapon description says otherwise.


Like I said, I was not a proponent of the interpretation that the natural attack becomes a 'weapon'.

I was merely trying to restate what the OP and Scott Wilhelm seemed to be saying, as there seemed to be some static in the communication.

The problem with the whole natural attacks/FCT thing is that it takes a whole slew of feats (Weapon Focus/FCT/Martial Versatility/Multi-Attack)and it is still usually subpar (especially the monk route).

Anyway, I agree that RAW 3 bites as itteratives is not allowed by FCT.


So, Claxon, instead of making his attack routine
Claw+11/Claw+11/Bite+11/Bite+6/Bite/+1, Stephen Ede should just throw in his regular Unarmed Strikes, making his attack routine. So that, assuming a character with a BAB of +11, and again, laying aside other bonuses, his attack routine would be

Bite+11
Claw +11
Claw +11
Unarmed Strike +11
Unarmed Strike +6
Unarmed Strike +1

Is that your advice, too?


fretgod99 wrote:
Also note that you have to take FCT once per natural weapon (type). So in order to use bites and claws in a flurry routine, you'd actually have to take FCT twice (and consequently, you'd have to take Weapon Focus twice, too).

FCT does not say that you can take it multiple time with the effects applying to another natural attack, so you cannot. FCT like most other feats, can only be taken once so the benefits can only apply to one type of natural attack. Many GMs may allow multiples of FCT, but by RAW you can only take it once.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So, Claxon, instead of making his attack routine

Claw+11/Claw+11/Bite+11/Bite+6/Bite/+1, Stephen Ede should just throw in his regular Unarmed Strikes, making his attack routine. So that, assuming a character with a BAB of +11, and again, laying aside other bonuses, his attack routine would be

Bite+11
Claw +11
Claw +11
Unarmed Strike +11
Unarmed Strike +6
Unarmed Strike +1

Is that your advice, too?

The correct mix of unarmed strikes and natural attacks, following the general combat rule of mixing "weapon attacks" (using iteratives) and natural weapons is:

Unarmed Strike (kicks, etc.) +11/+6/+1
Bite (secondary) +6
Claw (secondary) +6
Claw (secondary) +6


Dragonchess Player wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So, Claxon, instead of making his attack routine

Claw+11/Claw+11/Bite+11/Bite+6/Bite/+1, Stephen Ede should just throw in his regular Unarmed Strikes, making his attack routine. So that, assuming a character with a BAB of +11, and again, laying aside other bonuses, his attack routine would be

Bite+11
Claw +11
Claw +11
Unarmed Strike +11
Unarmed Strike +6
Unarmed Strike +1

Is that your advice, too?

The correct mix of unarmed strikes and natural attacks, following the general combat rule of mixing "weapon attacks" (using iteratives) and natural weapons is:

Unarmed Strike (kicks, etc.) +11/+6/+1
Bite (secondary) +6
Claw (secondary) +6
Claw (secondary) +6

Are you saying that mixing natural attacks creates a -5 penalty? That if the OP were making just his claw and bite attacks that it would be

Bite +6
Claw +6
Claw +6?


Stephen Ede wrote:

A PC as Monk Levels, Feral Training - Bite and a Bite and 2 Claw Attacks.

He chooses to make a full Attack using 3 Unarmed Strikes - replaced with his Bite, + his Bite + 2 Claw attacks.

Question - are the subsequent natural attacks that aren't Feral Combat Training replacements for UAS's secondary attacks or Primary?

1st UAS (Bite) BAB
2nd UAS (Bite) -5 BAB
3rd UAS (Bite) -10 BAB

Bite - BAB or -5 BAB
Claw BAB or -5 BAB
Claw BAB or -5 BAB

Basically does using Feral Training turn those UAS's into a pure Natural Attack attack sequence or does the attack sequence remain a Weapon + Natural attacks sequence. I think the latter but am not sure.

Thanks

First, which natural attack does FCT apply to? I will assume claw.

Assuming a 15th level monk (11 BAB) with an 18 str:
Non flurry full attack: +15 US (2d6+4)/+10 US (2d6+4)/+5 US (2d6+2)/+10 claw (2d6+2)/+10 claw (2d6+2)/+10 bite (d8+2)

Flurry: US or claw +17 (2d6+4)/ US or claw +17 (2d6+4)/ US or claw +12 (2d6+4)/ US or claw +12 (2d6+4)/ +7 US or claw (2d6+4)/ +7 US or claw (2d6+4). Of course any weapon with the monk quality could be swapped in for any of these attacks.

In the first example all FCT does for you is allow you to use your Monk IUS damage in place of claw damage.

In the second example what FCT essentially does is add the monk quality to your claws. That, and use your Monk IUS damage for your claws.


thorin001 wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
Also note that you have to take FCT once per natural weapon (type). So in order to use bites and claws in a flurry routine, you'd actually have to take FCT twice (and consequently, you'd have to take Weapon Focus twice, too).
FCT does not say that you can take it multiple time with the effects applying to another natural attack, so you cannot. FCT like most other feats, can only be taken once so the benefits can only apply to one type of natural attack. Many GMs may allow multiples of FCT, but by RAW you can only take it once.

I've never liked the permission-based mentality at all.

The rules don't specify that you can still take Blind Fighting if you take Whirlwind Attack, so you can't.

The rules don't say that if you use a weapon with which you are specialized, you still retain your armor bonus to your AC, so you don't.

Ridiculous.

It seems like a poor build to apply FCT to multiple natural attacks, anyway, so this is a minor point.

But it also seems to me that the reason why they explain why Weapon Specialization has a Special section that says you can take the Feat multiple times is to clarify that each time you take it, you apply it to a new weapon and you can't stack the +2 bonuses all on the same weapon, not that it's the Special section that lets you take FCT in the first place. Also, in 1st and 2nd Edition Dungeons and Dragons, you used to be able to take Weapon Specialization in only 1 weapon. That changed in 3rd Edition. Also, for most feats, taking it more than once is nonsensical.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So, Claxon, instead of making his attack routine

Claw+11/Claw+11/Bite+11/Bite+6/Bite/+1, Stephen Ede should just throw in his regular Unarmed Strikes, making his attack routine. So that, assuming a character with a BAB of +11, and again, laying aside other bonuses, his attack routine would be

Bite+11
Claw +11
Claw +11
Unarmed Strike +11
Unarmed Strike +6
Unarmed Strike +1

Is that your advice, too?

I hadn't been giving advice, so much as clarify the rules.

But in any event, no this sequence is still wrong. Whenever you use manufactured weapons with natural attacks all natural attacks become secondary natural attacks. So, if you make a non-Flurry attack with unarmed strikes and natural attacks all natural attacks will be at BAB-5. So in your example, the bite and claws would be a +6.

Quote:

Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Also, yes, unarmed strikes do count as manufactured weapons.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I've never liked the permission-based mentality at all.

The rules don't specify that you can still take Blind Fighting if you take Whirlwind Attack, so you can't.

The rules don't say that if you use a weapon with which you are specialized, you still retain your armor bonus to your AC, so you don't.

Ridiculous.

It seems like a poor build to apply FCT to multiple natural attacks, anyway, so this is a minor point.

But it also seems to me that the reason why they explain why Weapon Specialization has a Special section that says you can take the Feat multiple times is to clarify that each time you take it, you apply it to a new weapon and you can't stack the +2 bonuses all on the same weapon, not that it's the Special section that lets you take FCT in the first place. Also, in 1st and 2nd Edition Dungeons and Dragons, you used to be able to take Weapon Specialization in only 1 weapon. That changed in 3rd Edition. Also, for most feats, taking it more than once is nonsensical.

You're examples aren't valid Scott. Under a permission based system, there would have to be a rule saying that you can't take Blind Fight if you take Whirlwind because currently the rules simply say:

Quote:

Feats

Some abilities are not tied to your race, class, or skill—things like particularly quick reflexes that allow you to react to danger more swiftly, the ability to craft magic items, the training to deliver powerful strikes with melee weapons, or the knack for deflecting arrows fired at you. These abilities are represented as feats. While some feats are more useful to certain types of characters than others, and many of them have special prerequisites that must be met before they are selected, as a general rule feats represent abilities outside of the normal scope of your character's race and class. Many of them alter or enhance class abilities or soften class restrictions, while others might apply bonuses to your statistics or grant you the ability to take actions otherwise prohibited to you. By selecting feats, you can customize and adapt your character to be uniquely yours.
Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

So as long as you qualify for feats you can take them. No other restrictions exists, unless specified within a feat itself.

So no, you don't need explicit permission to do what your examples indicate, because the rules exist to tell you how you can take feats and your made up examples don't exist because there isn't a rule to cause the problem in the first place.

Pathfinder is definitely a permission based system.

Sczarni

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So, Claxon, instead of making his attack routine

Claw+11/Claw+11/Bite+11/Bite+6/Bite/+1, Stephen Ede should just throw in his regular Unarmed Strikes, making his attack routine. So that, assuming a character with a BAB of +11, and again, laying aside other bonuses, his attack routine would be

Bite+11
Claw +11
Claw +11
Unarmed Strike +11
Unarmed Strike +6
Unarmed Strike +1

Is that your advice, too?

The correct mix of unarmed strikes and natural attacks, following the general combat rule of mixing "weapon attacks" (using iteratives) and natural weapons is:

Unarmed Strike (kicks, etc.) +11/+6/+1
Bite (secondary) +6
Claw (secondary) +6
Claw (secondary) +6

Are you saying that mixing natural attacks creates a -5 penalty? That if the OP were making just his claw and bite attacks that it would be

Bite +6
Claw +6
Claw +6?

No, if the Character is only making Natural Attacks, and they are all Primary attacks, they would be at full BAB.

It's only when you mix Natural Attacks with Manufactured Weapons (including Unarmed Strikes) that the Natural Attacks become Secondary and take the -5 penalty.

Dragon Chess has the right of it in the post of his you quoted.


thorin001 wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
Also note that you have to take FCT once per natural weapon (type). So in order to use bites and claws in a flurry routine, you'd actually have to take FCT twice (and consequently, you'd have to take Weapon Focus twice, too).
FCT does not say that you can take it multiple time with the effects applying to another natural attack, so you cannot. FCT like most other feats, can only be taken once so the benefits can only apply to one type of natural attack. Many GMs may allow multiples of FCT, but by RAW you can only take it once.

You are correct. It doesn't say you can take it more than once, so you shouldn't technically be able to.

My argument would be it's probably implied, in that it only applies to one natural weapon type. There are lots of PC-legal races that could end up having multiple natural weapons. But that's just me reading into it.

I don't think any GM should have a problem with it because it's a substantial feat investment for not much additional benefit. Bottom line though is it's safer to ask from the outset.


Claxon wrote:
But in any event, no this sequence is still wrong. Whenever you use manufactured weapons with natural attacks all natural attacks become secondary natural attacks. So, if you make a non-Flurry attack with unarmed strikes and natural attacks all natural attacks will be at BAB-5. So in your example, the bite and claws would be a +6.... Also, yes, unarmed strikes do count as manufactured weapons.

For starters, thank you for the rules quote on natural attacks. It is elucidating on a character build I am planning.

I don’t think that the OP would be simply mixing natural and manufactured weapons here. I think all the weapons, including the unarmed strikes, may be treated as all natural weapons here in this case.

Unarmed Strikes count as manufactured weapons, but remember here we are talking about Monk Unarmed Strikes, and Monks have a Class Ability that seems to bear.

Unarmed Strike description within the Monk class description in the Core Rulebook wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Bites and Claws are natural weapons, so a Monk Unarmed Strike counts as a natural weapon for effects that improve Bite attacks and Claw attacks.

Mixing another natural instead of a manufactured weapon attack into the attack routine has the effect of relieving instead of imposing a -5 upon the claw and bite attacks.

So this rule says that Monk Unarmed Strikes count as natural weapons for the purpose of mixing them in with the claw and bite attacks, so there would be no -5 penalties. And that means with Stephen Ede’s +11 BAB our Monk’s attack routine would indeed be

Bite +11
Claw/Claw +11
Monk Unarmed Strike +11
MUS +6
MUS +1

Is there some other rule I have overlooked, some rule in some other book, maybe: an FAQ, erratum, Official Rules Response, something?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I've never liked the permission-based mentality at all.

The rules don't specify that you can still take Blind Fighting if you take Whirlwind Attack, so you can't.

The rules don't say that if you use a weapon with which you are specialized, you still retain your armor bonus to your AC, so you don't.

Ridiculous.

Claxon wrote:

So as long as you qualify for feats you can take them. No other restrictions exists, unless specified within a feat itself....

So no, you don't need explicit permission to do what your examples indicate, because the rules exist to tell you how you can take feats and your made up examples don't exist because there isn't a rule to cause the problem in the first place.

Thank you Mr. Claxon. Those are my thoughts exactly.


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That's not how that rule works in here. Natural weapons aren't being "enhanced" or "improved" by the rule that treats them as secondary when combined with manufactured weapons. That "combining" rule imposes a penalty. Monk's US aren't treated as manufactured or natural weapons depending on if that would benefit other attack forms; that rule simply allows the Monk's US to be the beneficiary of whatever spell or effect is in question. Ergo, utilizing a Monk's US with natural weapons changes nothing.

You're still combining manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

US are made at BAB with iteratives.
Natural attacks are made at BAB-5, as per usual.

FCT does nothing to change any of this. Neither does the Monk's rule on US.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

For starters, thank you for the rules quote on natural attacks. It is elucidating on a character build I am planning.

I don’t think that the OP would be simply mixing natural and manufactured weapons here. I think all the weapons, including the unarmed strikes, may be treated as all natural weapons here in this case.

Unarmed Strikes count as manufactured weapons, but remember here we are talking about Monk Unarmed Strikes, and Monks have a Class Ability that seems to bear.

Unarmed Strike description within the Monk class description in the Core Rulebook wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Bites and Claws are natural weapons, so a Monk Unarmed Strike counts as a natural weapon for effects that improve Bite attacks and Claw attacks.

Mixing another natural instead of a manufactured weapon attack into the attack routine has the effect of relieving instead of imposing a -5 upon the claw and bite attacks.

I'm glad I could help you Scott. Despite my intractable nature, and my propensity for being argumentative my ultiamte goal is to explain the rules to the best of my abilities and understanding and help other understand the game.

That being said, no that line you quoted about Unarmed Strike counting as manufactured weapons and natural attacks doesn't do what you are suggesting here.

It is as FretGod says. The fist are manufactured weapons and count as such when determien whether they function as manufactured weapons or natural attacks when making an attack. Monk's unarmed strikes only count as natural attack for things that enhance them, such as feats and spells. But this doesn't include their interaction with other rules elements such as the rules for combining manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

The unarmed strike functions as manufactured weapon, and when used with natural attacks all natural attacks become secondary weapons. Causing them to be at BAB-5 and only half strength to damage.


Claxon wrote:
Monk's unarmed strikes only count as natural attack for things that enhance them, such as feats and spells. But this doesn't include their interaction with other rules elements such as the rules for combining manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

The rule doesn't say that it only counts for things that enhance them. It says, "treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon... for... manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

It doesn't say, "treated as... for things that affect them." There isn't any self-reflective language like that in this rule.

The wording of the rule does not preclude the use I am proposing.

So, is there some other rule? An FAQ? An Official Rules Post? Anything?


Fretgod wrote:
Natural weapons aren't being "enhanced" or "improved" by the rule that treats them as secondary when combined with manufactured weapons.

But being able to treat that manufactured weapon as a natural weapon sure does improve those natural weapons. That's the effect I'm talking about.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Monk's unarmed strikes only count as natural attack for things that enhance them, such as feats and spells. But this doesn't include their interaction with other rules elements such as the rules for combining manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

The rule doesn't say that it only counts for things that enhance them. It says, "treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon... for... manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

It doesn't say, "treated as... for things that affect them." There isn't any self-reflective language like that in this rule.

The wording of the rule does not preclude the use I am proposing.

So, is there some other rule? An FAQ? An Official Rules Post? Anything?

the rules are in what you cut out

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

SO to break down what it is saying.

A monk's unarmed strike
is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon
for the purpose of spells that enhance or improve A monk's unarmed strike,

And

A monk's unarmed strike
is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon
for the purpose of effects that enhance or improve A monk's unarmed strike.

This rephrasing is what it's saying, that the monk's unarmed strikes can benefit from stuff that boosts both.

Nothing in there says it, Improves other natural attacks, or counts as natural attacks for attacking or in a full attack action.


fretgod wrote:
FCT does nothing to change any of this.

You're getting ahead of me! I'll get back to FCT, soon!


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Monk's unarmed strikes only count as natural attack for things that enhance them, such as feats and spells. But this doesn't include their interaction with other rules elements such as the rules for combining manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

The rule doesn't say that it only counts for things that enhance them. It says, "treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon... for... manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

It doesn't say, "treated as... for things that affect them." There isn't any self-reflective language like that in this rule.

The wording of the rule does not preclude the use I am proposing.

So, is there some other rule? An FAQ? An Official Rules Post? Anything?

Scott, reread this line:

Quote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Unarmed strike being counted as natural weapons does not fall under a "spell or effect that enhances" them.

The rules are quite literally in the parts you ommitted as chess pwn notes.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Fretgod wrote:
Natural weapons aren't being "enhanced" or "improved" by the rule that treats them as secondary when combined with manufactured weapons.
But being able to treat that manufactured weapon as a natural weapon sure does improve those natural weapons. That's the effect I'm talking about.

The natural weapons aren't being improved. If they are combined with manufactured weapons they are done at -5. That's just the rule. There's no effect to enhance the. Just because to us it improves the attacks doesn't mean it's an effect that can be added. Like what is being boosted? nothing as far as I can see.


ChessPwn wrote:

A monk's unarmed strike

is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon
for the purpose of spells that enhance or improve A monk's unarmed strike,

And

A monk's unarmed strike
is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon
for the purpose of effects that enhance or improve A monk's unarmed strike.

This rephrasing is what it's saying, that the monk's unarmed strikes can benefit from stuff that boosts both.

I know you think that what it means. And I think that is what Wizards of the Coast meant when they wrote it.

But WotC is irrelevant, here. And that's not what the rule says in the Core Rulebook.

It says that a monk unarmed strike may count as a natural weapon for the purpose of improving natural weapons.

And Claws and Bites are natural weapons.

We need to find another rule that says that it doesn't mean what I say.


Claxon wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Monk's unarmed strikes only count as natural attack for things that enhance them, such as feats and spells. But this doesn't include their interaction with other rules elements such as the rules for combining manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

The rule doesn't say that it only counts for things that enhance them. It says, "treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon... for... manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

It doesn't say, "treated as... for things that affect them." There isn't any self-reflective language like that in this rule.

The wording of the rule does not preclude the use I am proposing.

So, is there some other rule? An FAQ? An Official Rules Post? Anything?

Scott, reread this line:

Quote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Unarmed strike being counted as natural weapons does not fall under a "spell or effect that enhances" them.

The rules are quite literally in the parts you ommitted as chess pwn notes.

But Claxon, the rule doesn't say that Monk Unarmed Strikes only count as natural weapons for spells and effects that improve them.

It says that they count as natural attacks for effects that improve natural weapons!

You repeated the rule. You bolded the rule. This rule does NOT preclude my application. Can you find another rule?

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