So I've been looking at the Alchemist class lately, and have been looking at things that can be done with vestigial arms. While they don't grant additional attacks, they do allow you to wield a weapon, and thereby bypass cumbersome weapon switches.
My idea is simple, an Alchemist gains two vestigial arms, and then uses a reach weapon with those arms while also using normal weapons with their other two arms (feral mutagen natural attacks or TWF as desired). With a medium creature, this means the character can have a set of weapons that allow them to engage targets at both 5 and 10 feet increments.
Adding enlarge person into the mix is where I personally started giggling madly. Large creatures with reach weapons double the, well, reach, of their weapon, but that also doubles their vulnerable area right next to them. But with those two vestigial arms wielding normal-ranged weapons, that space is covered as well.
Lastly, add combat reflexes for multiple attacks of opportunity, and you end up getting a character that threatens up to 15-20 feet (depending on whether you consider a large reach weapon as threatening 15 feet or 20 feet max), making multiple AoO. Combine this with the character themselves occupying a 10 foot square, and in total you have something that fills up a 50 foot wide square for every melee enemy to get through.
Basically every point becomes a choke point, and your guy can stand pretty much anywhere and get a full attack action once enemies start getting within 15 feet of your character.
Potential issues are that this build can be rather feat- and discovery-intensive: combat reflexes, extra discovery, vestigial arms x2, Feral mutagen, Two Weapon fighting, weapon proficiencies and focuses, etc, depending on what combination of weapons you use.
Another potential issue, Enlarge Person gives -2 dexterity, which means that combat expertise takes a hit to attacks of opportunity that can be made when using Enlarge Person.
My question, are there any other issues I'm missing, and is it worth it?
Focus down a little. No need for both claws and TWF. Personally, I'd just double dip and wield a reach two hander and a non-reach two hander (Glaive and Greatsword for example). The same feats (mostly) work for both and you don't nearly face the same MAD as before. If you're worried about your dex score taking a hit while enlarged, key your Mutagen into Dex instead of Str. That'll keep your AC up as well as give you an extra AoO. If you're looking for pure DPR, keep it in Strength (and maybe dip a level in barbarian for rage to stack on top of that, you know, for giggles).
Starting 18 Str + 4 Mutagen + 2 Enlarge Person + 4 Rage = 28 Strength --> +9 Str Bonus --> +13 Damage while two handing. Only feats absolutely required are Combat Reflexes and Extra Discovery (Vestigial Arms) so theoretically this is achievable at level 3:
Alchemist 2/Barbarian 1
1: Combat Reflexes
3: Extra Discovery
Assuming 20pt buy with a human/half orc/half elf
18/14/14/14/9/7
Racial +2 in Strength.
If you're willing to take a harder stat dump you can get:
18/16/14/13/7/7 but then you've got the -2 Will Save issue, but it does allow more AoO's.
Barbarian covers the weapon proficiency issues and also enables medium armors (plus who doesn't love a FAST reach monster). Does suffer some from low Dexterity, but you do hit like a truck (+13 Static damage at level 3 isn't bad at all :P).
Cheers!
P.S. I may have run something akin to this build at some point or another :P
...wow, someone that actually tries to use vestigial arms for the kind of purposes they were designed for. That is quite refreshing after the Nth "Catfolk trying to get 4 claws" thread. Thank you.
I ended up following a similar line of reasoning in the past, but instead of the arms, I focused on the tentacle discovery with a reach build (which is under similar restrictions to the arms). The advantages I found there were 2 fold-
1.) If it is your only natural attack, then it becomes primary and gets 1.5x power attack and strength bonuses, which is always nice. Getting 2handed like advantages with only 1 discovery can be fairly nice.
2.) It has the grab quality. That actually would allow for a viable grappling build and an effective reach build with just 1 discovery, since it allowed a free action, no AoO grapple and it gave a +4 to the checks. Combine that with mutagens, buffs, and a decent enough BAB, and you could effectively grapple opponents.
I liked the idea of a grapple build since it gave you a option for when tricky casters tried to get into your inner area to avoid AoO's. As you'd expect, tentacles make you the natural enemy of magical girls......
Anyway, do not worry about the DEX problem too much. Even if your size increase takes a decent DEX score into 'meh' territory, you could always grab another buff to bring it back up again. I mean, cat's grace is a second level formulae for you. And that is ignoring the fact that you could get a belt or some other magical item to boost DEX. I would advise a modest DEX of 14, which would end up as 12 (giving you 2 AoO's per round). That should be enough early on when 2 handing murders everything and the number of times you can even use enlarge person is kind of low.
It occurred to me that the Meteor Hammer would be appropriate to this build. Wield two, one for close, one at range. It would consolidate Weapon Focus feats and the like. Aside from that, Zedorland has a great point. You could also shoot a longbow while threatening at reach still.
So I've been looking at the Alchemist class lately, and have been looking at things that can be done with vestigial arms. While they don't grant additional attacks, they do allow you to wield a weapon, and thereby bypass cumbersome weapon switches.This is nothing you couldn't do just as easily with 1 level of Sohei or "improved unarmed strike".
Who needs claws when you can just kick the opponent in the unmentionables while wielding your polearm of choice.
Some folks like to kick, some folks wanna bury a greataxe in their opponents' heads. Options for all...!
So I've been looking at the Alchemist class lately, and have been looking at things that can be done with vestigial arms. While they don't grant additional attacks, they do allow you to wield a weapon, and thereby bypass cumbersome weapon switches.This is nothing you couldn't do just as easily with 1 level of Sohei or "improved unarmed strike".
Who needs claws when you can just kick the opponent in the unmentionables while wielding your polearm of choice.
It defeats the purpose of the build which is to threaten a 25ft radius at 25, 20, 15, and 10ft.
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It defeats the purpose of the build which is to threaten a 25ft radius at 25, 20, 15, and 10ft.
No, it does not defeat the purpose. There are many ways to threaten a large radius with no inner 'blind spot'. E.g. A character with 'improved unarmed strike' and a reach weapon threatens at all ranges; an Alchemist with wielding both reach and non-reach weapons with the help of a pair of vestigial arms threatens all ranges; a Commoner wearing spiked armor and wielding a longspear threatens at all ranges.
A MEDIUM character who wields a reach weapon has a 10' radius reach and a 5' radius 'blind spot'. A LARGE character who wields a reach weapon has a 20' radius reach and a 10' radius 'blind spot'. Personally, I find the whole 'problem' of a reach 'blind spot' to not be a problem in actual play. I know how to fix this 'problem', but most of my reach PCs do not bother ...
I, too, appreciate your attempt to use Vestigial Arms as intended, rather than as a cheap exploit!
Your goal of threatening a large area makes sense. This is a very effective way to 'tank'. I have a 'tanky' PFS character who uses this style of polearm combat, and it works really well. I think you'll find this approach works quite well when you are teamed with experienced players, and not so well when you are teamed with new players.
It defeats the purpose of the build which is to threaten a 25ft radius at 25, 20, 15, and 10ft.No, it does not defeat the purpose. There are many ways to threaten a large radius with no inner 'blind spot'. E.g. A character with 'improved unarmed strike' and a reach weapon threatens at all ranges; an Alchemist with wielding both reach and non-reach weapons with the help of a pair of vestigial arms threatens all ranges; a Commoner wearing spiked armor and wielding a longspear threatens at all ranges.
A MEDIUM character who wields a reach weapon has a 10' radius reach and a 5' radius 'blind spot'. A LARGE character who wields a reach weapon has a 20' radius reach and a 10' radius 'blind spot'. Personally, I find the whole 'problem' of a reach 'blind spot' to not be a problem in actual play. I know how to fix this 'problem', but most of my reach PCs do not bother ...
I, too, appreciate your attempt to use Vestigial Arms as intended, rather than as a cheap exploit!
Your goal of threatening a large area makes sense. This is a very effective way to 'tank'. I have a 'tanky' PFS character who uses this style of polearm combat, and it works really well. I think you'll find this approach works quite well when you are teamed with experienced players, and not so well when you are teamed with new players.
Yeah, new players do have trouble understanding that there is essentially a 'wall' formed by martials dedicated for melee in most cases, and they either clutter right next to the 'tank' guy so enemies can 5-foot and attack, or go rushing in, typically with "Leeroy Jenkins!" being softly whispered by another player.
As to the rest, I would of course only invest in one path for the reach weapon and one for the weapon covering the blind spot. I wouldn't take natural weapons and TWF, I'd pick one and stick with it. Though now the suggestion of using a non-reach two-handed weapon to cover the blind-spot sounds good. However I really dislike giving up the level 20 alchemist capstone by multiclassing. I know that doesn't come up often, but it's just one of my things.