Please explain to me why the Arcanist is not a grotesque monstrosity!

[PSusac]

OK, I just got home with my new Advanced Class Guide, and as with all splat books I expected a power creep issue. I accept that.

But then I read the Arcanist - a spontaneous caster who can cast ALL the wizard spells? AND he can have a familiar AND he can customize himself off of a huge laundry list of special abilities?

How is this not the most grotesquely broken class ever invented? The whole power balance concept of the wizard and the sorcerer was that one gets all the spells and the other spontaneously casts a few spells.

This guy gets both!

Please explain to me why I should ever take Paizo seriously again?

Please explain to me why Pathfinder isn't going to collapse under the weight of it's own grotesque power creep like 3.0 & 3.5 did?

Thank you. That is all.

[Eltacolibre]

considering that exploiter wizard can get the arcanist exploits...heh, it's fine.

[Takhisis]

I cannot explain to you how it's not a monstrosity of a class because frankly it is. The Arcanist is literally the most overpowered class in the entire game, to the point of doing the seemingly impossible and obsoleting wizards and sorcerers. However, pathfinder as a game will not be destroyed by the class because of the ststem's biggest check on brokenness... The GM and your fellow players . The GM remember can chose to ban any content he/she wishes and therein lays the reason the monstrosity that is the Arcanist won't kill pathfinder as a system. If you don't want the class messing with your game ban it as a GM or play with at a like-minded table that bans the class. Pathfinder gives the players and GM the right to select the content that is in their games.. Remember that.

[ShadowcatX]

First, prove that your statements about 3.0 & 3.5 are true, then we can explain how this is different.

[Azten]

PSusac wrote:

Please explain to me why I should ever take Paizo seriously again?

Wow. No, you're right, you should totally never take a company seriously based on one thing in one product.

Seriously, just burn all your Paizo books if the Arcanist is that off putting.

[PSusac]

Eltacolibre - power-creeping the wizard is hardly and offset.

Takhisis - Yeah, that's what I thought, thanks for validating my perceptions.

ShadowcatX - I can't give you a logical proof, But I can describe my experience - I made a Gish character in 3.5 that could pretty much one-shot any single monster that was 4CR's higher than him, it wasn't even that hard, just mixing and matching feats and spells and whatnot. We were already WELL down the road to this cheese with the "Ultimate" books, and now we have a piece of munchkinesque clap-trap like the Arcanist lurking out there. Why would ANYONE play ANY OTHER arcane class EVER from a game mechanics point of view.

Personally I draw the line at the APG. I'm thinking about returning the book to my game store and asking for my money back.

[Tacticslion]

So... you've actually play tested it and verified that the lower spells prepared, per day, and limited class features (including the weaker arcane bond) are, in fact, more powerful than either of the parent classes? 'Cause I'm doing that now, but it'll take me a while to get back to you.

[xebeche]

Don't take the things that bother you and play with others who feel similarly. This is pretty difficult to manage in Pathfinder Society Organized Play though. If options become too unpopular then the PFS team will likely make them illegal for play.

[PSusac]

Azten wrote:

PSusac wrote:

Please explain to me why I should ever take Paizo seriously again?

Wow. No, you're right, you should totally never take a company seriously based on one thing in one product.

Seriously, just burn all your Paizo books if the Arcanist is that off putting.

I think you are missing the point. The reason game balance is thrown under the bus like this is because Paizo needs to keep moving product, and by grossly overpower a character class like this, you can sell a lot of books.

Paizo has compromised the integrity of the game system in favor of marketability - a common problem that capitalists face: degrade product quality in order to increase profits. The pressure is ubiquitous. Paizo has clearly succumbed to this temptation.

But here is the problem - if the Arcanist becomes the new norm for what an arcane caster looks like, then the NEXT splat book has to be even MORE broken and overpowered than the Arcanist. At some point the audience get's sick of the endless arms race, and stops buying books, and the business model fails. This is why we had 7 or so editions of D&D AND the Pathfinder product line, because this power overreach just keeps happening. In 2.0 D&D it was the Barbarian that did it, in 3.0 it was the wizard, in 3.5 it was the Gish.

I think that Paizo has jumped the shark.

Maybe they expect to secede the market to the new D&D product line and they are just trying to sell as many splat books as they can before the throw in their hand. Who knows.

If so, that would be sad.

[Azten]

PSusac wrote:

Why would ANYONE play ANY OTHER arcane class EVER from a game mechanics point of view.

More than the 1st level ability of a bloodline.

More than the 1st level ability of a wizard school.
Witch class features.
Bard class features.
Magus class features.

[TOZ]

PSusac wrote:

Please explain to me why the Arcanist is not a grotesque monstrosity!

No thanks, you seem to have made up your own mind already.

[icehawk333]

TOZ wrote:

PSusac wrote:

Please explain to me why the Arcanist is not a grotesque monstrosity!

No thanks, you seem to have made up your own mind already.

Indeed. It seems you don't want a reason it isn't, you want to argue that it is.

I don't think anything we could say would change your mind.

[Vigil]

Remember back when th mystic theurge first came out and so many people cried out how broken and overpowered it was?

And now nobody bothers playing one because while it looks strong on paper in play it is really weak?

And there was no public playtest of 3.5, so the devs had no time to make adjustments, while th ACG had two rounds of public testing to ensure fun AND balance?

Why not actually try the class before you set fire to your book collection?

[Imbicatus]

Are you actually asking for advice here? It doesn't seem like you are, and that isn't the purpose of this forum.

[PSusac]

Tacticslion wrote:

So... you've actually play tested it and verified that the lower spells prepared, per day, and limited class features (including the weaker arcane bond) are, in fact, more powerful than either of the parent classes? 'Cause I'm doing that now, but it'll take me a while to get back to you.

Hmm..

OK, so we are trying to solve a mystery: Cast detect thoughts before every role-playing encounter.

Fighting Demons - Load up on cold spells and spells that have no save and blast away.

Etc.

Now let's suppose you are 12th level. Take overland flight (a great spell - you want that anyway) Extend it and cast it on EVERYONE before you go to bed - it lasts for 24 hours. Remember to save a few spell slots in case of a late-light ambush. The next day the whole party can fly AND IT DIDN'T COST YOU ANY SPELL SLOTS FOR TODAY!!!

you are at full power and the whole party can fly for the rest of the day.

Yeah, that's not broken at all. Silly me. What was I thinking?

[icehawk333]

PSusac wrote:

Tacticslion wrote:

So... you've actually play tested it and verified that the lower spells prepared, per day, and limited class features (including the weaker arcane bond) are, in fact, more powerful than either of the parent classes? 'Cause I'm doing that now, but it'll take me a while to get back to you.

Hmm..

OK, so we are trying to solve a mystery: Cast detect thoughts before every role-playing encounter.

Fighting Demons - Load up on cold spells and spells that have no save and blast away.

Etc.

Now let's suppose you are 12th level. Take overland flight (a great spell - you want that anyway) Extend it and cast it on EVERYONE before you go to bed - it lasts for 24 hours. Remember to save a few spell slots in case of a late-light ambush. The next day the whole party can fly AND IT DIDN'T COST YOU ANY SPELL SLOTS FOR TODAY!!!

you are at full power and the whole party can fly for the rest of the day.

Yeah, that's not broken at all. Silly me. What was I thinking?

You can do all this with a wizard. Or worse, a paragon surge sorcerer.

It's not any more broken then the spell casting system already in play.

Now, I'm going to step back, and just watch the rants and hate happen, because you're not here to be wrong. You're here to be /right/ whether or not you are.

[deusvult]

A lot of people aren't fully familiar with the rules on page 218 of the CRB. Even now, with ACG published, the wizard is still the king of flexibility in preparing arcane spells. Granted, given the opportunity to take a 15 minute break is there... But when it is the Wizard's prepared spells can be picked on the fly. A wizard can tailor his prepared spells to meet his exact needs and he can do it at any point of the day.

The Arcanist doesn't need that peace and quiet, sure, but he's still limited to the # of spells he can prepare on the chart on page 14 of the ACG.

[MYTHIC TOZ]

PSusac wrote:

Yeah, that's not broken at all. Silly me. What was I thinking?

What parts of that rant were exclusive to the arcanist?

[Cheapy]

Oooooh, a thread of this title is going to be full of well reasoned points, and definitely not 90% emotions.

Wait a few months. Then you'll see your answer, one way or another.

[Tacticslion]

Vigil wrote:

mystic theurge

I was just about to mention that myself. :)

PSusac wrote:

Tacticslion wrote:

So... you've actually play tested it and verified that the lower spells prepared, per day, and limited class features (including the weaker arcane bond) are, in fact, more powerful than either of the parent classes? 'Cause I'm doing that now, but it'll take me a while to get back to you.

Hmm..

OK, so we are trying to solve a mystery: Cast detect thoughts before every role-playing encounter.

Fighting Demons - Load up on cold spells and spells that have no save and blast away.

Etc.

Now let's suppose you are 12th level. Take overland flight (a great spell - you want that anyway) Extend it and cast it on EVERYONE before you go to bed - it lasts for 24 hours. Remember to save a few spell slots in case of a late-light ambush. The next day the whole party can fly AND IT DIDN'T COST YOU ANY SPELL SLOTS FOR TODAY!!!

you are at full power and the whole party can fly for the rest of the day.

Yeah, that's not broken at all. Silly me. What was I thinking?

I'm honestly not sure what you're thinking. I mean, I believe you think that it's overpowered, and I suspect that nothing I say will sway you, but if my play-test isn't timely enough proof enough for you (one way or the other), then let me give you a different suggestion:

Make nine each: arcanists, sorcerers, witches, wizards. Vary them (different exploits, bloodlines, schools, etc.) as much as possible; make them different characters (if you like; make them weird variants of the same character if you prefer instead). Make three "super-generic" PCs of other roles: a skill-monkey, a healer, and the tank (and name them "Monkey, Skill"; "A. Healer"; and "The(o) Tank" if you want).

Choose three Pathfinder adventure paths that you have or will run (or have finished) that use the PF ruleset. I recommend two "standard" adventure-styles, and one "odd-ball" adventure style (Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, Carrion Crown, and Shattered Star, maybe good candidates) in order to test it in relatively "typical" environments. Then run through each of them nine times, keeping your three "generic" folk, and swapping out your one arcane caster each time. Choose the best choices (in keeping with the spirit of the character you've created) for each of them - remember to allocate your wealth, handle things discreetly, and separate your knowledge of the path from the characters'.

Since you're in a hurry, just presume all dice rolls are values of 10, unless your characters would take 20, or you specifically want to alter things.

Remember, as well, make the best choice you possibly can for each character you're running at the present time. This is important. Choose what's best for the wizard when you're playing the wizard, for example, not what's best for the sorcerer or the arcanist.

It's extremely important that you go into each playtest with the absolute certainty that the class you're about to play - whichever class that is - is the "best". Compete with yourself - see who does better, and who comes out more powerful. Ignore all other classes, but keep a journal. Note every time your character comes up with a nifty solution.

If you have time and the friends willing to do it, run them through the paths with friends so that they make the choices instead. Just make sure that the caster's are making solid choices in-general, and be sure to account for a given player's exhaustion or distraction or other element on a given day.

Then, after you're done there, please get back to us. I'd be very interested in hearing how things sussed out.

[Chris Lambertz]

Locking and moving this out of the Advice forum. We understand that new releases come with mixed reviews and some concerns, however, it might be better to start off with a less baiting thread title.