I would be left dead in the street if the happenstance in Ferguson were taken as precedent. Or the shooting of the 22 year old in a Wal-Mart for having a BB gun in his hand.
A BB GUN.
Many of them look real enough. If you point one of those at someone expect to be shot. (a brief web search doesn't make it seem like he was just playing with it in the isle where it was sold)
Which doesn't seem to be a problem for the Open Carry people, but you do have a point.
Also, way to judge the cop guilty before a trial.
At least the cop GETS a trial. IF it even goes that far and doesn't end up swept under the rug as justified and yet another part of the old day job.
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Because it is relevant, and because it is local (to me anyway) I figured I'd post this piecethat has been circulating my social media.
Granted, this story is one man's side and doesn't cite sources a whole lot (he's a layperson father of a murdered son) but I think it highlights the realities of the situation.
I tend to think that, now that Fergusen is getting national attention and scrutiny, that things might actually get done. The problem is that this sort of stuff happens every day and not every incident gets the light shone on it that it deserves.
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Which doesn't seem to be a problem for the Open Carry people, but you do have a point.
This has been a pretty big piece of frustration and ire on my end of things regarding a lot of the Ferguson and Wal-Mart shooting cases, because apparently it's okay to walk into a Wal-Mart, or down a street, or through a park, carrying a gun openly. As long as you're white. Because you will get the benefit of the doubt.
Not Caucasian, though?
You're more likely to get shot for looking like you might have a gun than a white person who has one is.
I just... I have a really hard time believing that even the most stubborn of us in the world can't see that as institutionalized and overt racism on the part of the police force(s) (and the Open Carry Lobby) in question.
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Like i said in another thread, I'd love to see the NRA folks reaction if everyone violating that curfew did so holding a shotgun. I think they'd have to invent a new shade of purple to turn in apoplexy.
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The chromatic shift might be worth it, if only to see the reactions to suddenly being well armed persons of color.
...
Okay, that was terrible, I'll see myself out.
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Not a fan of pistols myself (if I'm that mad at someone I want to at least give them a chance to run)
While i'm sure race is a factor (i think i'd rate it second) , there's a lot that goes into the open carry thing
First its OPEN carry. How many people robbing a place actually advertise that they've got a gun on them by keeping it in a holster?
Location location location. Places with common open carry are often known for banjo music, hunting, and white people. Cities with different demographics often don't allow it, so its largely a geography thing.
Age: people with open carry permits tend to be old. Not the usual demographic for sticking up a convenience store.
Clothing: most open carry people look like they just stepped off a ranch or shooting range . The outfit tends to fit the look of a cowboy.
I can remember walking into a mall in UP state new york. I heard someone behind me , opened the door stood to the side for them Then saw a gun. Part of my brain said "GUN! SMASH WITH DOOR!" but thankfully the other part said "Full Cammo. Hunter" . The mall had a cabellas, and as there was no shooting on the news nor stuffed hunter on the ceiling the next week, i presume he was getting it serviced.
And then there's the cycle of self re enforcing stereotypes. Because you DON"T see black people doing the open carry thing, you don't expect them to, and because they don't you don't expect them to. A lil bit of racism and geography will self perpetuate a long way.
You mean, after praising the police for their restraint in only killing a few dozen people while putting down the race rebellion?Like i said in another thread, I'd love to see the NRA folks reaction if everyone violating that curfew did so holding a shotgun. I think they'd have to invent a new shade of purple to turn in apoplexy.
Yeaaah Thats why i'm not actually advising it. I don't think it would go nearly as well as This one
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The Constitution has a very specific definition of treason, and this doesn't fit. Treason charges not only shouldn't be used (granted, I very firmly believe that treason should not be a punishable crime at all), they legally can't.It must end with a charge of treason against police and looters for violating the constitutional rights of others. If the constitution isnt strong enough to destroy its violators it is little better than old toilet paper in need of flushing.eh? The point was to watch the street interview, not to look for who else reads a page I found while surfing for new news? I think it highlights the trouble here. On one side are the people who are aghast at the police violence and on the other are people who clearly think the looters deserve some. And this is just inside the black community.
Clearly this community needs help. They need to unite against crime and hire a police force they can trust to make the right calls. If they don't do both then this won't end with a dead teen and a jailed officer.
Yellowdingo post. He had a thread awhile back suggesting that all violent crime (or maybe just murder?) should treason because reasons.
I suggest treating it like any yd posts.
And yet this is precisely what is needed.
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Look at the brutal suppression of Occupy. It's also about whether you represent a threat to the system. For all their anti-government rhetoric, the Open Carry folks don't. Occupy did, just like unions and labor agitators used to.
I had to reread this several times because my brain kept parsing it as "labor alligators". Which I think is way cooler.
Adult-onset dislexia?
Look at the brutal suppression of Occupy. It's also about whether you represent a threat to the system. For all their anti-government rhetoric, the Open Carry folks don't. Occupy did, just like unions and labor agitators used to.I had to reread this several times because my brain kept parsing it as "labor alligators". Which I think is way cooler.
Adult-onset dislexia?
I am okay with this so long as they are not of the trap door variety.
NOTE: Watch video from beginning to end for full effect.I am okay with this so long as they are not of the trap door variety.
Look at the brutal suppression of Occupy. It's also about whether you represent a threat to the system. For all their anti-government rhetoric, the Open Carry folks don't. Occupy did, just like unions and labor agitators used to.I had to reread this several times because my brain kept parsing it as "labor alligators". Which I think is way cooler.
Adult-onset dislexia?
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I see the Michael brown petition demanding police wear black box recorders so they cant get away with anything has passed a hundred thousand signatures. The white house must support it or look like they condone constitutional violations by police.
petition to nail looters and police to wall for violating constitutional rights
My guess is that the officer encountered an angry and belligerent teen and decided to arrest him for... I have no idea (probably jaywalking) since he didn't know about the crimes the boy was a suspect in. As the teen was being placed in the cruiser the teen foolishly decided to fight back and at some point they struggled over the officer's weapon which was fired into the cruiser. The teen ran and in the heat of rage the officer gunned him down.When was the last time you saw/ heard of a white teenager placed in the back of a patrol car for jaywalking?
No there have been cases in other cities where jaywalkers were beaten by police, none of them were black. Just being put in a car sounds a LOT gentler.
What are the outcomes everyone hopes comes out of this?
Much more scrutiny of military responses to protests.
More racial/class equality and understanding.But I'm not holding my breath. These kind of events can usually be spun to support any agenda.
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A real hard look at race in America?
But that's a pipe dream.
An end or at least massive cutbacks to the militarization of police forces and the use of SWAT.
More pressure for mandatory vest cameras. That's probably the best short term goal.
While the petition for mandatory police cameras reached a hundred thousand signatures support for stopping militarisation of police is flaging.
Actually as far as the police vs gun carrying is concerned I don't think it's race at all. I am fully licensed to carry a handgun and I was driving across the state to meet some friends and admittedly I was speeding because I was a little late. A small town cop pulled me over and I turned over my gun license along with my usual papers as is required by law. And the cop freaked out. I swear he had me on the ground at gun point he then removed my weapon and unloaded it before searching my car without a warrant. I was crying by that point thinking he was going to take me to prison or something. And after about 20 to 30 minutes of pure terror he finally wrote me a C/I for disobeying an officer even though I fully complied and then let me go after a long angry lecture about having a loaded weapon... I was going to point out to him that as a licensed CPL holder I had every right to carry a loaded gun. But I was terrified by that point and did everything he asked. I am a white girl with a fully legal permit to carry. I think cops just treat everyone who owns a gun outside of the police as public enemy number one... and combine that with the stupidity of some cops and you have a truly terrifying mix.
NOTE: Watch video from beginning to end for full effect.I am okay with this so long as they are not of the trap door variety.
Look at the brutal suppression of Occupy. It's also about whether you represent a threat to the system. For all their anti-government rhetoric, the Open Carry folks don't. Occupy did, just like unions and labor agitators used to.I had to reread this several times because my brain kept parsing it as "labor alligators". Which I think is way cooler.
Adult-onset dislexia?
See I was thinking more like this particular variant.
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Actually as far as the police vs gun carrying is concerned I don't think it's race at all. I am fully licensed to carry a handgun and I was driving across the state to meet some friends and admittedly I was speeding because I was a little late. A small town cop pulled me over and I turned over my gun license along with my usual papers as is required by law. And the cop freaked out. I swear he had me on the ground at gun point he then removed my weapon and unloaded it before searching my car without a warrant. I was crying by that point thinking he was going to take me to prison or something. And after about 20 to 30 minutes of pure terror he finally wrote me a C/I for disobeying an officer even though I fully complied and then let me go after a long angry lecture about having a loaded weapon... I was going to point out to him that as a licensed CPL holder I had every right to carry a loaded gun. But I was terrified by that point and did everything he asked. I am a white girl with a fully legal permit to carry. I think cops just treat everyone who owns a gun outside of the police as public enemy number one... and combine that with the stupidity of some cops and you have a truly terrifying mix.
...and now take that experience and multiply that by every single day of your life where you have to interact with people licensed to put numerous holes in your body and are supposed to be there to protect you from others who would do you harm that see you as CRIMINAL SCUM and if you so much as sneeze wrong will be seen as reaching for their weapons and the next thing you know you are dead and you all-out expect your family to be invoiced for the bullets and then slander your character in the court of public opinion with minimal effort because the culture already makes the same assumption.
Welcome to the other side.
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Actually as far as the police vs gun carrying is concerned I don't think it's race at all. I am fully licensed to carry a handgun and I was driving across the state to meet some friends and admittedly I was speeding because I was a little late. A small town cop pulled me over and I turned over my gun license along with my usual papers as is required by law. And the cop freaked out. I swear he had me on the ground at gun point he then removed my weapon and unloaded it before searching my car without a warrant. I was crying by that point thinking he was going to take me to prison or something. And after about 20 to 30 minutes of pure terror he finally wrote me a C/I for disobeying an officer even though I fully complied and then let me go after a long angry lecture about having a loaded weapon... I was going to point out to him that as a licensed CPL holder I had every right to carry a loaded gun. But I was terrified by that point and did everything he asked. I am a white girl with a fully legal permit to carry. I think cops just treat everyone who owns a gun outside of the police as public enemy number one... and combine that with the stupidity of some cops and you have a truly terrifying mix.
Wow...a gurl gamer with a gun. Hot. Scary hot. Black leather body suit? Please say yes;)
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Actually as far as the police vs gun carrying is concerned I don't think it's race at all. I am fully licensed to carry a handgun and I was driving across the state to meet some friends and admittedly I was speeding because I was a little late. A small town cop pulled me over and I turned over my gun license along with my usual papers as is required by law. And the cop freaked out. I swear he had me on the ground at gun point he then removed my weapon and unloaded it before searching my car without a warrant. I was crying by that point thinking he was going to take me to prison or something. And after about 20 to 30 minutes of pure terror he finally wrote me a C/I for disobeying an officer even though I fully complied and then let me go after a long angry lecture about having a loaded weapon... I was going to point out to him that as a licensed CPL holder I had every right to carry a loaded gun. But I was terrified by that point and did everything he asked. I am a white girl with a fully legal permit to carry. I think cops just treat everyone who owns a gun outside of the police as public enemy number one... and combine that with the stupidity of some cops and you have a truly terrifying mix.
Slight derail but this happened to me as also. I was at a GFs townhouse one night. It was late like 3am we were watching movies. She recalled she had something she was waiting for in the mail and asked me to get it. The good guy that I am I head out to her mail post which is a few driveway lengths away from her townhouse. I grab the mail and start heading back.
Lights suddenly surround me and a car revs up next to me. Cop gets out with flashlight in my face asking me what I am doing. I told him I was getting my GFs mail and if there was something I could help him with. Cop says vandals are in the area and needs to see my ID. I tell him that I can do that for him but I wanted to let him know I have a carry permit and was holding.
"HE'S GOT A GUN!!" Cop screams out as he draws his pistol and aims at me. The other cop leaps out of the squad and starts screaming. It would be comical to witness two adult men screaming at a docile white guy if they were not pointing loaded weapons at me. So I get slammed against the cop cruiser and the cop throws my wallet on the driveway and then takes my revolver. He opens the cylinder and empties the bullets out. I try and tell him that "I have a permit its in the wallet I havent been drinking and ive done nothing wrong." Cop continually yells at me to shut up.
At this point my Gf comes out and is asking what is going on. She gets told to GTFB in her house. She tells the cop that im her BF and wants to know whats going on. The cop then says "we will let him go in a moment please get back in your hosue" which she does. Cop lets me up hands me my wallet and says "allright you are free to go." I look at him more pissed then I have ever looked at anyone and was like "GUN" as I held my hand out. He gave my my revolver back. I stared at him for what felt like a million years and then yelled out "BULLETS" he then gave me my bullets back. I went back in the house and joined my GF.
So yeah cops tend to not like anyone but them to have guns.
No sorry yellowdingo I don't own a black leather body suit.
Hell, I've gotten bad reactions for having a walking stick.
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I know you wouldn't make a statement like this without some kind of evidence to back it up and I'd love to see it...
Which doesn't seem to be a problem for the Open Carry people, but you do have a point.This has been a pretty big piece of frustration and ire on my end of things regarding a lot of the Ferguson and Wal-Mart shooting cases, because apparently it's okay to walk into a Wal-Mart, or down a street, or through a park, carrying a gun openly. As long as you're white. Because you will get the benefit of the doubt.
Not Caucasian, though?
You're more likely to get shot for looking like you might have a gun than a white person who has one is.
I just... I have a really hard time believing that even the most stubborn of us in the world can't see that as institutionalized and overt racism on the part of the police force(s) (and the Open Carry Lobby) in question.
My evidence is writ all across the AP and Reuters news wires, where in states with a strong right-leaning citizenry, the urge to join the Open Carry movement has gained striking and stunning ground. White citizens carrying AR-15's slung over their shoulders are being photographed brazenly carrying these weapons (and in many cases, their small children on the other hip) in grocery stores, Wal-Mart's, etc... and only in a few cases are these people reported to have been questioned by security, or asked by the proprietors to exit the premises. The same applies to the number of people who have recently decided that they want to "make a statement" by open carrying in Starbucks (who, as a corporate entity, exercised its right to refuse service and the resulting stink that got from second-amendment focused groups like the NRA).
If you haven't seen these people either on the news or via social media, then I suggest you check up on them. There are quite a few of them out there.
The very few cases of Blacks attempting to follow suit that I have seen (again, same news wires) have all been met with calls to the police or security. Hell, as we've already gone over in the thread, a man was shot to death for carrying a toy gun, so this is not so difficult a concept to grasp.
There are so very many cases of "I thought he had a gun" that end with there being no gun, no weapon, nothing. You don't even have to be Black. Just be Victor Vialpando of New Mexico, shot for holding a stick. Then your case will be investigated by the same department that shot you, the surveillance footage will be confiscated, and despite testimony to the contrary, your stick will be called a gun and you'll be remembered as a potential cop killer instead of a promising student.
Hell, in California, the carry laws were specifically altered during the 1960's (Look up the Mulford Act) as a retaliation against the Black Panthers utilizing California's previously very permissive open carry regulations. The law was just fine when it was just white folks taking advantage of it. But when the Black Panthers marched on the capital exercising their rights, the legislature couldn't work fast enough to get the Mulford Act in place. I'm no Chicken Little crying Sky Is Falling about racism. I don't see it everywhere I look. But this is pretty overt and blatant.
These are not anecdotes, nor are they hard to find with just a cursory news search. The Mulford Act is a matter of history - open carry in California was incredibly permissive until 1968, at which point a whole bunch of Black citizens realized that the law applied to them... at which point suddenly it no longer did. That's a clearly racist motivation, right there.
awwww! Phooy...No sorry yellowdingo I don't own a black leather body suit.
If it's any consolation I do own a kevlar motorcycle body suit.
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Monstrous.
And also consistent if he was struggling with the officer standing outside the window of the car while leaning in.
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Wheres the info about the range? Were there powder burns on the body? Still doesn't tell me if this was a shooting while engaged in melee (cop and Brown struggling) or if these shots were taken at 10ft, 20ft, 30ft etc.
Also - it looks like the eyewitness detail of Brown being shot in the back was a lie - all those tags are on the front and on Browns right side (possibly the presented/attacking side).
Again, consistent if the cop had the pistol in his right hand and was struggling with someone reaching in with their right arm. Shot in reaching arm and top of head if Brown was bent into the window while the cop was seated.
Still don't know the range and I don't understand why those details haven't been released yet.
Edit: thanks for posting the link Dingo
Edit II: Read second article - no powder burns on body, but they only tested the body and did not have access to Brown's clothes. Still - should have been some trace of powder at close range on the headshots and his forearm (exposed with no sleeve).
There were no powder burns. That's not looking good for a version of events where the officer wasn't grievously at fault here, particularly with the head shot.
I'm not finding much confirmation on this other than social media, but apparently there was a report on CNN that indicates that the owner of the store in question has confirmed that there was not a robbery report filed with the Ferguson PD?
Can anyone confirm this?
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Monstrous.
I'm curious what part of his you find monstrous. I'm guessing it is the 6 shots. IMO: Once the police have deided an incident has scaled to the point where it is necessary to take a life, shooting 6 times is fine, you never know when drugs or hidden armor or what have you can make the situation worse. Not like he'd be less dead if the cop had shot him 5 times instead of 6.
The part that bothers me is the lack of powder burns. I don't know exactly how close you have to be to get them, but obviously the kid wasn't that close. Looks bad for the police officer.
All of the above.
What are the outcomes everyone hopes comes out of this?
Don't have much hope, sadly.
What I expect to happen, is insurance rates (home, auto, business, life) are going to shoot up in the area. This is going to cause prices of consumer goods to also go up as businesses compensate. Consumers are going to have less money to spend locally, reducing businesses. Property values are going to drop, this will lead to higher property tax rates to compensate in order to continue paying for local services. Those that can afford to move, especially non-African Americans, will do so further reducing the wealth of the area.
Damn those uppity darkies, raising insurance costs and driving down property values with their so-called lives.
...
Well, time to go lay in the corner in the fetal position until the despair wears off.
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As Ferguson, Missouri becomes a pit fight, it is apparent that only the prosecution of those violating the constitution will end it.
While surfing again I came across an interesting article on Time. I have always believed that what most people see as racism was something else even deeper and this article does a wonderful job of shaping those thoughts into a concise idea.
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While surfing again I came across an interesting article on Time. I have always believed that what most people see as racism was something else even deeper and this article does a wonderful job of shaping those thoughts into a concise idea.
Half the reason for oppressing blacks is so that the poor whites are too busy looking down to look up.
Its worked since Bacons rebellion and it still works.
And being white, even if you're poor, means the police can't know how broke you are. Even if you're a broke white hippie in dreadlocks, a suit and a haircut later you can walk into a court room, sue the cop and be believed.