After seeing all the sillyness regarding divine protection being a powerful feat, or a feat you would build around, when it's just an ok feat let's make a thread listing feats that are actually powerful. feats that make you exponentially more powerful, feats that allow for things that otherwise can't be done, feats that you would in fact build around
1. power attack - best feat
2. dazzing spell - second best feat- poster child for feat you build around
3. preffered spell - turn your God caster into a God and blaster caster
4.accursed hex
5. extra mystery (mysteries are in general more powerful than feats, most are far more valuable than dvine protection, allowing the oracle to break certain rules in the game)
6. leadership
7. master craftman, feat tax yes, but the payoff is huge.
8. extra rage
9. extra hex
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Divine Protection.
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Ok... first of all Leadership is not the 6th most powerful feat (assuming its numbered that way, power attack being the "best" feat indicates it is), Leadership is bar none the strongest feat in the game and that fact hasn't changed in over a decade at this point.
Craft Wondrous is my pick for the 2nd best feat as used properly it effectively reads "Increase your WBL by 70+%", and its certainly a much stronger feat then Master Craftsman which probably ranks after Craft Magic Arms and Armor even...
Spell Perfection also needs to be on the list somewhere.
No, a Mystery is not better than CHA to all saves, although it can be competitive.
Why are you trying to defend a feat that is already banned in PFS for power level purposes?
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I think its pretty funny how hard he pushes power attack. A feat with drawbacks like power attack couldnt possibly be better than Leadership.
I can't believe I forgot Sacred Geometry. That's definitely way way up there, but beneath Leadership.
Right now, it goes:
1: Leadership
2: Sacred Geometry
3: Divine Protection
2 and 3 can be changed based on circumstances.
I'm think I would place Craft Wondrous Item well above Divine Protection. Most of your wealth will be invested into wondrous items anyway and if you really focus on them you'll be really really far ahead on WBL. Thanks to Echoing spell though I'm having a hard time comparing it and Sacred Geometry, so I'm just going to say "tie".
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Ok... first of all Leadership is not the 6th most powerful feat (assuming its numbered that way, power attack being the "best" feat indicates it is), Leadership is bar none the strongest feat in the game and that fact hasn't changed in over a decade at this point.
Craft Wondrous is my pick for the 2nd best feat as used properly it effectively reads "Increase your WBL by 70+%", and its certainly a much stronger feat then Master Craftsman which probably ranks after Craft Magic Arms and Armor even...
Spell Perfection also needs to be on the list somewhere.
pretty sure you mean +50% and even that assumes you won't have any armor, shield, weapon, ring, magical tatoo, potion, wand, construct, scroll, staff, cognize crystal, rod, crystalline focus item, rune, alchemical item, or mundane equipment, such as a house, flying castle, airship or boat,
Still enormously powerful.
Oh no. I mean 70+%. The best rings are a very small percentage of your WBL (Ring of Inner Fortitude, Ring of Freedom of Movement, and Ring of Evasion). Yes, if you feel compelled to buy a +10 version of weapon, armor and shield, you'll end up at only 50%, but most casters can get away with only investing 8,305 gold for a +1 Courageous Spiked Gauntlet and even with +10 Armor and Shield, you will be well above 70% increased wealth.
But ya, it's enormously powerful.
1. power attack - best feat
HAHA!
1. power attack - best feat
1/10 got me to respond
It was either Echoing or Persistant metamagic. Went great with dazing and lightning Ball.
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1. Leadership
2. Craft Wondrous Item
Other top contenders that stick out in my mind are Sacred Geometry, Divine Protection, pre-errata 3.5 Stoic (still listing it since it's from Paizo), pre-errata Antagonize, probably Spell Perfection, probably Dazing Spell, possibly Bewildering Koan for single-target lockdown, Expanded Arcana if you're running a Paragon Surge build (grabbed through Paragon Surge, not obtained as a normal feat), and Extra Rage Power if you count using it to get Greater Beast Totem (though that should probably just be gettable with your normal Rage Power allotment).
Oh no. I mean 70+%. The best rings are a very small percentage of your WBL (Ring of Inner Fortitude, Ring of Freedom of Movement, and Ring of Evasion). Yes, if you feel compelled to buy a +10 version of weapon, armor and shield, you'll end up at only 50%, but most casters can get away with only investing 8,305 gold for a +1 Courageous Spiked Gauntlet and even with +10 Armor and Shield, you will be well above 70% increased wealth.
But ya, it's enormously powerful.
So I understand that Craft Wondrous Item is normally a 50% price cut, but are there traits/archetypes that make it even more efficient that I'm not aware of? I recall a Hedge Magician or something trait that reduced the cost by 5%.
I mean something different then what I'm saying (damn words!). I mean you get double your wealth for 70+% of your wealth, which is not a 70% overall increase. So apologies to Lord Foul II, I had one thing in my head and was explaining it poorly, but you are in fact correct that the value is closer to 50% increase in WBL.
Edit @ KuntaSS: If you save 50% on your WBL, that gives 50% more to spend. Which is an effective 50% increase to your WBL.
Also what is the source of extra mystery?
OP means Extra Revelation.
Also putting this forward as a powerful feat supposes that each mystery has enough good revelations that you will not eventually run out
Each mystery has 2-3 staple revelations that define the class, and it is worth paying to have them for a longer time playing the character by having early access. In most cases a character that took Extra Revelation will actually be weaker because he'll run out of good Revelations at high level, and is down a feat compared to another Oracle that still has all of the good Revelations. In essence Extra Revelation is buying you progressively worse Revelations once you go past level 11.
Honestly, its not really straight wondrous items. But really, +10 armor/shield is a luxury and a magic weapon isn't needed if your a caster (outside of the above mentioned +1 courageous spiked gauntlet). I'd have a hard time finding non-wondrous items to spend wealth on to be honest, considering wondrous items includes the vast majority of your magic items slots and *also* covers your unslotted items.
Craft Wondrous Item? That's only good for party boosting. For a casters the money is just money not going to undead hordes, sno-cones, and bribing outsiders.
Eh? Even Casters want their fancy magical gadgets. What would I do without my Beads (plural) of Karma? Or my Ioun Stones? Or my stat boosters? Or...
Also, by rules any items a crafter makes for martials should be counted fully against their WBL.
Might as well note another pair of powerful ACG feats- Pummel Style and Pummel Charge.
Pummel style is kind of like a very watered down mythic vital strike for unarmed builds. It takes a full round action, and lets you make all the rolls you would with a normal full attack/flurry/etc. All the attacks that would actually hit get put into one big punch. The obvious advantage of this is that DR becomes a non-issue, since it only applies once for this full attack. This solves one of the major problems unarmed builds face- cheaply getting through DR. And in that role, it seems fine enough, since it is a full round action.
The problem comes up with Pummel charge- I am sure you know what that leads to. You can charge and still use pummel style. Essentially pounce, with the prerequisites of monk/brawler 8, or level 12 for everyone else. I trust I do not need more explanation on this?
Oh, and for another personal favorite feat- lunge on reach builds. It doesn't increase your threatened area for AoO's, but it lets you leave enemies 15 feet away after you attack. That means they have to move 10 feet to get to you, which means they draw an AoO and they likely lose their full attack. Excellent defense and offense in one, in the right hands, and it more than makes up for the -2 to AC. Not overpowered or anything, but it is something that helps you to master reach builds, so it has at least some degree of power, no? Certainly up to the standards set in the first post, at least.
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Maybe not in the same range as the feats already mentioned, but imho Defiant Luck is a strong feat for humans.
HAHA!1. power attack - best feat
Rereads forums responses to strength builds that forget Power Attack......
Any feat that is universally deemed "must have" is probably overpowered.
It is not. It is a neccecity, because monster Hp are made taking power attack into account. So it dos not put you ahed of the CR, only on par.
HAHA!1. power attack - best feat
Rereads forums responses to strength builds that forget Power Attack......
Any feat that is universally deemed "must have" is probably overpowered.
It is less that it is overpowered, and more that it is a general assumption of game balance.
For a martial, a magical weapon with a reasonable +x is a 'must have', but it is hardly overpowered.
This thread is more about the kind of feats that change how the game is played, rather than simply maintaining the status quo. Leadership gives you another character to work with, which means you could build them to make yourself awesome with a support build, and they also give more bodies on the field for action economy. Crafting, for example, changes the in game economy and wealthy by level tables (and makes getting the 'right' item less of a game of chance and GM whim). Metamagic allows you to make powerful spells more powerful, which is impressive when spells are already rather powerful.
The pummel style chain gives you unarmed pounce that ignores most DR.
HAHA!1. power attack - best feat
Rereads forums responses to strength builds that forget Power Attack......
Any feat that is universally deemed "must have" is probably overpowered.
Popular and powerful are very different things. Power Attack is only a "must have" for one style of fighting. And for that fighting style it is very good, but it is not like Power Attack is giving you two metamagic feats that you can add to your spells for free. Not only that, Power Attack actually has a drawback, while Leadership, CWI, and Sacred Geometry have none.
I have yet to see a single martial build without power attack. monks need power attack, two weapon fighters need power attack.
if you say words like well the GAME is balanced around a feat, then feat is powerful.
any class that is a full BAB gets exponetial powerful with power attack than without it.
a martial class with power attack is on it's face flat out superior to any martial class without it.
A must have feat is by defintion powerful.
divine protection is no way shape or form a must have feat, it does not make your character more powerful or able to do anything different. it can replicated for a few thousands in gold, even less if you craft wonderous item.
the feats on my list either make your character more powerful, are must haves or allow your character to break basic assumptions in the game.
divine protection does not do any of these things. all the hoopla about divine protection is that people are offended that a paladin ablity can be gain by another class. that is not reason for a feat to be labeled powerful.
P.S i did mean extra revelations, thanks for the correction.
I have yet to see a single martial build without power attack. monks need power attack, two weapon fighters need power attack.
I have yet to see a Wizard without Detect Magic, game must be balanced around that f$!%ing feat.
Also, Piranha Strike builds.
Power Attack is only a must have feat for one strategy, that comes with a drawback. Divine Protection has 0 drawbacks, and far from a single strategy is effective on anyone with a 10 base CHA and a +6 headband. Sure it's most crazy on Oracle who is already maxing CHA and doesn't need to dip for the requirements, but it's still really strong for people with even minor investments in CHA. And if you think higher saves doesn't make your character more powerful, you must have played an odd game without saves.
Considering some people were dipping 2 levels of Paladin for this ability before (I wasn't, but that's only because I can get all day Bestow Grace of the Champion on my CG oracle). This feat is literally worth a 2 level class dip. That's crazy powerful.
Looks like we're just hearing a recording.
If you dont want to discuss the game, dont expect people to agree with you.
I have yet to see a single martial build without power attack. monks need power attack, two weapon fighters need power attack.
if you say words like well the GAME is balanced around a feat, then feat is powerful.
any class that is a full BAB gets exponetial powerful with power attack than without it.
a martial class with power attack is on it's face flat out superior to any martial class without it.
A must have feat is by defintion powerful.
No, it is by definition mandatory. Mandatory and powerful are two different things.
If you insist that adding your casting stat to all saves doesn't make your character more powerful, for the price of one feat, I'm calling you out as a troll. What happens when some NPC shows up with, say, Dazing Spell?
I have yet to see a single martial build without power attack. monks need power attack, two weapon fighters need power attack.
if you say words like well the GAME is balanced around a feat, then feat is powerful.
any class that is a full BAB gets exponetial powerful with power attack than without it.
a martial class with power attack is on it's face flat out superior to any martial class without it.
A must have feat is by defintion powerful.
divine protection is no way shape or form a must have feat, it does not make your character more powerful or able to do anything different. it can replicated for a few thousands in gold, even less if you craft wonderous item.
the feats on my list either make your character more powerful, are must haves or allow your character to break basic assumptions in the game.
divine protection does not do any of these things. all the hoopla about divine protection is that people are offended that a paladin ablity can be gain by another class. that is not reason for a feat to be labeled powerful.
P.S i did mean extra revelations, thanks for the correction.
um... actually 2 weapon fighters tend not to get power attack... they have enough penalties to combat as it is and they are feat starved...
Heck power attack for the most part is kinda meh feat... its the fact that 2 handed weapons get to double dip into bonuses with power attack and really crank out damage.
So, if you don't think it's insanely powerful, an Oracle with an 18 Charisma base, plus all bonuses into it as they level, plus a +6 headband, plus any inherent bonuses, let's say +4 here, and Divine Protection should be just peachy.
Except the monstrosity I just mentioned will be rocking at least a +11 to all saving throws. Most Oracles will be 5-6 points higher than that, and this is without a Cloak of resistance, or anything else that stacks with this.