Warpriest nerf, real?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Removed some posts and replies to them. Let's not derail this thread with a discussion of play style. That might be better off in a different thread/forum.

Liberty's Edge

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Seranov wrote:

It's a lot weaker than a standard Cleric. But most classes are, so that's hardly a huge complaint. As long as Clerics have 9 levels of spells, decent BAB and weapons/armor, in addition to a list of really powerful domain abilities, it's going to be really difficult for any class to fit into the "warrior priest" niche without being compared to the monster that a well-designed cleric can be.

On a tier list, Clerics are in T1, while Warpriests are in T3. Considering T3 is pretty much smack dab in the middle of "can do lots of stuff well, but isn't able to do absolutely everything" I don't really think it's a bad class at all.

Among T3 classes, Warpriest are on the low end. Since the bonuses are enhancement bonuses, a Magus will deal tons more damage. On the other hand, Paladins have so much better defenses between amazing saves, immunities, etc. Plus paladins decent melee with smite and a full BAB.

I would state that a Warpriest does a lot of things, but none are done very well. The Warpriest class is one of the disappointments of the ACG.

Dark Archive

Alceste008 wrote:
Seranov wrote:

It's a lot weaker than a standard Cleric. But most classes are, so that's hardly a huge complaint. As long as Clerics have 9 levels of spells, decent BAB and weapons/armor, in addition to a list of really powerful domain abilities, it's going to be really difficult for any class to fit into the "warrior priest" niche without being compared to the monster that a well-designed cleric can be.

On a tier list, Clerics are in T1, while Warpriests are in T3. Considering T3 is pretty much smack dab in the middle of "can do lots of stuff well, but isn't able to do absolutely everything" I don't really think it's a bad class at all.

Among T3 classes, Warpriest are on the low end. Since the bonuses are enhancement bonuses, a Magus will deal tons more damage. On the other hand, Paladins have so much better defenses between amazing saves, immunities, etc. Plus paladins decent melee with smite and a full BAB.

I would state that a Warpriest does a lot of things, but none are done very well. The Warpriest class is one of the disappointments of the ACG.

I believe the chassis is a little weak, but it's not a bad class at all. It gives an alternate take on the fighty holyman, and while it's probably not the most mechanically powerful version of that archetype, it works.

And let me tell you about the Sacred Fist...


I'm waiting for a fervor paladin which trades everything but smite evil for the class features from WP.


I've looked at the Warpriest closer now, and I must say that I too am a bit disappointed. Inquisitor is by far more intresting. The Warpriest is like a boring Inquisitor but with heavy armour and martial weapons. Though I still find it to be a solid class.

Spoiler:

A Warpriest's BAB and saves are the same a Cleric, as well as orisons and Aura (though Warpriest gets 1 more orison). The Warpriest have lower spells than a Cleric (it's not only 7th to 9th level spells, it's also the spell progression). More flexible healing, but ultimately less (fervor + channel energy). Blessings aren't as attractive as Domains. Though I havn't looked through all Blessings yet, so I will reserve this as an equal for now.

To make up for the spell loss and some of the healing, the Warpriest gets Weapon Focus (which barely is even worth mentioning, though it does make up for 1/5th from a full BAB), Sacred Weapon, Sacred Armour and Bonus Feats. They also get access to martial weapons and heavy armour.

Bonus Feats and the Warpriest Proficiency is by far the strongest. This is enough compensation for the healing and for some of the spell loss.

Sacred Weapon and Sacred Armour isn't good. It is way to circumstantial for my taste.

  • The damage dice modifier is poor. A Warpriest is proficent with Greatsword and won't get to that kind of damage untill level 15 and not above untill level 20. This can still be used with weapons with less damage dice, but untill level 15 you would be better of with a Greatsword unless you make specific use of this. Like dual wielding, bow with rapid+manyshot.
  • The bonus to both weapons and armour is an enchantment bonus, which will save you some money. However, you can only have this bonus one round/lvl. Meaning every round you can't use it you won't have any bonuses on your weapon or armour at all. Is it really worth not investing in your weapon?
    This line of text: These bonuses stack with any existing bonuses the weapon might have should apply to the enchantment bonus aswell, not just the enhancments. The Fighter's Weapon Training is better, it's another type of bonus and constant
  • For certain builds this can be of use. Unarmed strike (and natrual attacks, if you can have weapon focus with natrual attacks) can't normaly have enchantment bonuses. However, I don't like the idea that you need to be unarmed to make use of your class feats, they should be usefull with any standard build
    The other enhancments are by far the most usefull part of this. Now you can skip spending money on these kinds of enchantments and go straight for the enchantment bonuses only.

    Bottomline:I feel like most of Sacred Weapon and Armour is unnecessary. The enhancments are the only generally usefull part. I would even like it better if they weren't included at all. Replaced by either full BAB or something like Fighter's Weapon Training or even bane would make me feel much better about it.

    EDIT: When I think about it, I still think I like it better than vanilla Fighter. Compared to the fighter it's not that bad, you lose an avg of 1hp/lvl. Full BAB goes to 3/4. And you don't have as many bonus feats and not as good class feats as Weapon and Armour Training. But you get 6/9 spellcasting.


    Rub-Eta wrote:

    I've looked at the Warpriest closer now, and I must say that I too am a bit disappointed. Inquisitor is by far more intresting. The Warpriest is like a boring Inquisitor but with heavy armour and martial weapons. Though I still find it to be a solid class.

    ** spoiler omitted **...

    Solid analysis. Honestly there's like 200 ways to make the WP good. It's not so far gone that a good archetype wouldn't fix it.


    In fact there is a great archetype to fix the warpriest but sacred fist locks in a lot of choices for you. Still, I love the idea of flurrying with a tetsuba now :)

    Shadow Lodge

    It really doesnt fix the warpriest at all, though. Its hands down better than the basic class, and its got a lot of flavor for one specific type of warrior priest, but the Warpriest itself is still terrible and basically still fails as the Cleric/Fighter mashup.


    3 people marked this as a favorite.

    Personally, I'll probably just be houseruling in that the Warpriest gets full BAB with his favored weapon. I don't really care if it unbalances the class. My players are gravitating away from straight fighters, so not much worry about that class being overshadowed (though it's fairly easy to), and it fills a different role than a paladin and inquisitor, so not too concerned there.


    DM Beckett wrote:
    It really doesnt fix the warpriest at all, though. Its hands down better than the basic class, and its got a lot of flavor for one specific type of warrior priest, but the Warpriest itself is still terrible and basically still fails as the Cleric/Fighter mashup.

    Well crusaders flurry makes you get effectively full BAB for deities favored weapon anyway. I'm currently looking at a WP of

    Smiad, Neshen, or Ragathel (Large bastard sword flurry here I come!)

    http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Smiad
    http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Neshen
    http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Ragathiel

    Considering good is possibly the most powerful blessing of ALL the blessings outside of a few niche cases.

    Realistically speaking the archetype is functionally identical to the base class only you lose your bonus feats for extra attacks, Fortitude evasion/imp fortitude evasion, and slightly late progression on Ki while retaining fervor (The core mechanic). A trade I'm happy to make.

    It's a great class and I love it.


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    There are times I wonder if the warpriest archetypes were written independently of or before the WP went through testing - they seem to break some of the conclusions drawn from the playtests.

    The warpriest had too high an attack bonus with "pseudo full" BAB progression, but Sacred Fist gets flurry of blows - effectively gaining both full BAB and TWF feats+.
    It was too MAD when fervor was based off of charisma, but all the abilities the champion of the faith gains are based off of charisma, splitting her abilities between wisdom and charisma.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm happy these archetypes exist, but I still find it a puzzling. I'll probably houserule some kind of option that makes the champion less MAD.

    Dark Archive

    Sacred Weapon used to give full BAB on all attacks. Flurry of Blows requires you to make a Full Attack Action, which means it's way more restrictive (unless you get Pummeling Charge <_< ) and therefore isn't as all-around good.

    That said, Sacred Fist is nuts. If only its AC Bonus gave Dodge instead of Deflection.


    One of my biggest questions is why in the infinite hells is extra fervor not a feat?

    Shadow Lodge

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    Undone wrote:
    Well crusaders flurry makes you get effectively full BAB for deities favored weapon anyway.

    What I mean is, it basically replaces rather than fixes the Warpriest. I meant it to fall somewhere between sarcasm and humor. :P

    Undone wrote:
    One of my biggest questions is why in the infinite hells is extra fervor not a feat?

    Well, the Warpriest was taking up too much room in the book between Feats, the Archtypes, special gear, and new spells, and they really needed to cut back so some other classes like the Brawler, Arcanist, and Swashbuckler, got a little page space, too. Again, sarcasm


    DM Beckett wrote:
    Undone wrote:
    Well crusaders flurry makes you get effectively full BAB for deities favored weapon anyway.

    What I mean is, it basically replaces rather than fixes the Warpriest. I meant it to fall somewhere between sarcasm and humor. :P

    Undone wrote:
    One of my biggest questions is why in the infinite hells is extra fervor not a feat?
    Well, the Warpriest was taking up too much room in the book between Feats, the Archtypes, special gear, and new spells, and they really needed to cut back so some other classes like the Brawler, Arcanist, and Swashbuckler, got a little page space, too. Again, sarcasm

    Given that I love the fervor mechanic I'll take anything that keeps it.


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    Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
    Unfortunately, for those who are either too poor or too lazy to buy the product,

    ...or are waiting for amazon to get their backsides into gear. For some reason they are now estimating delivery 10th-12th September.


    glass wrote:
    Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
    Unfortunately, for those who are either too poor or too lazy to buy the product,
    ...or are waiting for amazon to get their backsides into gear. For some reason they are now estimating delivery 10th-12th September.

    Oh the packing. The infinite packing.


    This is STR Ranger.
    Click the avatar to see my War priest. 20pt buy/no score below 10 allowed
    We are playing 6-8 in a mod and started with 16000gp.
    Had to build him in a hurry so any better suggestions are welcome.

    I did take the Archetype that gets smite (for smite+ divine protection feat).

    Thing is I have SOME optimization, eg Sky High Saves +9/+4/+9 before gear os pretty sweet at level 6.

    I was gonna blow some wealth on a Belt of Str but ddecided not to, since Bulls Str as a swift action is better and saved a crapton of cash.

    I WAS in the camp of Hating blessings vs domain's. But y'know, my destruction domain is like 1/2 smite for 1 min and that's pretty sweet.

    Good is kinda cool too.

    Right now he is meant to be a tank
    Destruction+Swift DF+Fortunes Favored+2 hand bastard sword for damage.
    Full Plate+FFey touched+Fervor LOH for AC/HP
    Divine Protection for saves.
    Smite for NOVA.

    Kinda like a pally.

    Human so 4 skills per level is ok

    Probably could have chosen a better feat than DESPERATE BATTLER, so am open to suggestions here.

    My experience so far
    Early days so far but he is performing way better than a cleric at fighting. Gets his thing on faster than a cleric, Generally Swift DF+Destruction Blessing+Move to close to 5ft away.
    Rd2. Swift BULLS STR then 5ft step and 2handed wreck face.


    Pretty sweet feat chain for a smiting or war blessing Warpriest.

    DEADLY STROKE.

    Do DOUBLE DAMAGE. on everything. Way better than Vital Strike.

    1-Aura, Blessings (Good,Destruction), focus weapon: Bastard Sword, orisons, sacred weapon (Good aligned), Fey Touched, Human- Dazzling Display
    2-Fervor 1d6
    3-Detect EvilPower Attack
    4-Smite Evil 1/day
    5-Fervor 2d6, Divine Protection
    6-Cornugon Smash
    Planned Progression to follow
    7-Sacred Armor +1, Shatter Defenses
    8-Fervor 3d6,Smite Evil 2/day
    9-Bonus Feat- GTR Weapon Focus, Cleave or Intimidating Prowess or Persuasive
    10-Major Blessing, Sacred Armor +2
    11-Fervor 4d6 Feat
    12-Bonus Feat- Deadly Stroke, HOLY Weapon 1/day,Smite Evil 3/day

    So you can Power attack for an easy Demoralize Check.
    The DEADLY STROKE with your War Blessing adding 1/2 level in damage and maybe SMITE as well.

    At level 12 that's 6 from War and 12 from smite
    so 12+24 plus all the normal buffs


    Not exactly convinced.

    That Warpriest is super MAD to be doing any actual good. Needing Charisma, Wisdom, AND Strength to be any use is a real killer; it's one of the reasons why it got removed in the playtest. The only other method I can think of to make it work is to simply dump Strength, get a Guided weapon, and go to town.

    Fervor to use for both swift spells and pseudo-LoH is going to burn through that resource fast; it will last for 2 combats tops, which, unless you only amount to having a 15 minute work day, becomes silly after a while. A shame there was no Extra Fervor feat, as this build would really need it.

    Deadly Stroke only works on Stunned or Flat-Footed enemies, and if you wanted to specialize in Critical Fishing, it won't stack with your weapon's critical multipliers. Additionally, unless you have a reliable means to Stun an enemy or you're building for Feint specialization, Deadly Stroke won't be usable. My guess is you thought an enemy who's Shaken or whatever would be affected; sadly, they are not. Also, Deadly Stroke only works as a specific Standard Action, granting a single attack. Although Warpriest has 3/4 BAB, with buffs they're at about unbuffed Fighter level, so you should still be hitting with your two attacks at that level.

    Honestly, playing a classic Paladin, or even a slightly archetyped one, would be better than this, and a lot simpler too.


    I haven't planned out every last detail, but when my PFS halfling slinger warpriest hits 12, he should be doing something like +25/+25/+25/+20 1d10+24 (+1 per target size above Small, +1d6 vs evil) on two rounds of buffs, and that can be cut down to one round if I'm able to have minute/lvl buffs up before combat starts.

    Pre-buffs: Bull's Strength, Shield of Faith
    Round 1: Fervor-Divine Power, Good Blessing (optional)
    Round 2: Sacred Weapon (+3), Full Attack

    Those may not be optimized Fighter Archer numbers, but they'll do fine for pretty much any PFS scenario or AP. And that's only with the benefit of a +2 sling, +4 Dex Belt and a Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (attacks).

    And again, it's using a sling, one of the worst weapons in the game.

    I don't think a Warpriest is going to win any DPR Olympics, but some out-of-the-box thinking can find some perfectly viable builds.


    Str Ranger Here,

    Check the Avatar. I am actually using this in game.
    Level 6 at the moment.

    Str 16 (3pts+2 human, +1 4th)
    Dex 10
    Con 14 (5pts)
    Int 10
    Wis 15 (7 pts)
    Cha 14 (5 pts)

    Seems to be working fine so far.

    Currently the Dazzling Display hasn't been used (mainly a feat tax, unless there is a good chance to debuff a whole bunch of mooks)
    AC is just high enough (thanks fullplate!) that he rarely gets hit.
    You MIGHT have missed that SHATTER DEFENSES means you treat a demoralized target as FLAT FOOTED.
    CORNUGON SMASH lets you auto intimidate any foe you hit with power attack.

    Now I am finding fervor does not run out as long as you primarily use LONGER BUFFS.

    Destruction Blessing lasts 1 min and does NOT chew fervor.

    So Rd1- See target, blow a fervor on either swift bull's Str or DIVINE POWER. Activate Destruction blessing as a standard and MOVE to close.
    Rd 2- Swift (whatever buff needed, maybe SMITE) and close+ Attack with power attack (foe is auto check for Demoralized AND is flatfooted if fails)
    Rd 3- DEADLY STROKE for double everything (big bonuses for smite and war domain)

    So I admit 3 rounds is a long time to get going but the effects build for free since a War priest is going to Buff+Hit anyway in the first 2 rounds.

    Now Demoralized is a nice debuff.
    Flat Footed via SHATTER DEFENSES drop his CMD, AC and means the enemy can't AOO you.

    Deadly Stroke applied to the big damage bonus of Smite+Destruction blessing is a pretty big hit. Even better than a Samurai using it with Challenge it is a good feat for them so why not a class that can stack evem MORE bonus damage

    Plus I never said this was great foe ALL warpriests. I said it was great for Smiting War priests with the Destruction Blessing.

    How many times can it per done in a day?
    Fevor is 3+1/2 class so by the time DEADLY STROKE is online at 12 you could do this combo in 3 combats per day.

    By level 15 you would qualify for DREADFUL CARNAGE so EVERYONE could be flatfooted to you after your first kill.


    I have no drama seeing the big one hit (particularly WHEN you could get DREADFUL CARNAGE at 15 so after the first kill, you can Deadly Stroke anyone who fails vs intimidate straight away)

    The question is whether or not 1 REALLY BIG hit plus CON Bleed is worth giving up the full attack.

    For a standard action attack, there is no contest.


    From the trenches:

    My War priest was chopping down a door to a barn filled with Orog's using villiagers as Human Shields.

    Soon as there was a hole he got shot at (Flat Footed) but the arrows missed his Fullplate AC.

    Then the enemy Caster dropped a STINKING CLOUD on the party who were surrounding the entrance. Warpriest was the ONLY one who made the save (Thanks to Good Base save+ Divine Protection)

    My turn? Couldn't just run in and attack (since there are tied up and trapped villiagers in front) So I say screw it.
    I burn a Fervor to cast SWIFT AIR BUBBLE on myself so I don't have to breathe the STINKING CLOUD. Then use my standard to cast MURDEROUS COMMAND on the Orog I can see.

    DM was blown away I could do that.
    We'll see what happens next


    Xavier Longsaddle wrote:

    From the trenches:

    My War priest was chopping down a door to a barn filled with Orog's using villiagers as Human Shields.

    Soon as there was a hole he got shot at (Flat Footed) but the arrows missed his Fullplate AC.

    Then the enemy Caster dropped a STINKING CLOUD on the party who were surrounding the entrance. Warpriest was the ONLY one who made the save (Thanks to Good Base save+ Divine Protection)

    My turn? Couldn't just run in and attack (since there are tied up and trapped villiagers in front) So I say screw it.
    I burn a Fervor to cast SWIFT AIR BUBBLE on myself so I don't have to breathe the STINKING CLOUD. Then use my standard to cast MURDEROUS COMMAND on the Orog I can see.

    DM was blown away I could do that.
    We'll see what happens next

    That you need this feat to save is strong evidence we should ignore it. The feat is widely regarded as broken with only a few select game breakers higher on the list of feats which should not be allowed(Leadership, crafting, dazing spell, sacred geometry).

    It's cute that you did that but honestly walking out of the cloud would have saved your spell. More importantly you had a 10/min level buff on your prepared spells, didn't cast it prior to delving, and burnt a fervor to use it. If that's the indicator it's like playing with bumpers for people who are unprepared.

    Shadow Lodge

    It's not really broken outside of the Oracle.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Undone wrote:
    Xavier Longsaddle wrote:

    From the trenches:

    My War priest was chopping down a door to a barn filled with Orog's using villiagers as Human Shields.

    Soon as there was a hole he got shot at (Flat Footed) but the arrows missed his Fullplate AC.

    Then the enemy Caster dropped a STINKING CLOUD on the party who were surrounding the entrance. Warpriest was the ONLY one who made the save (Thanks to Good Base save+ Divine Protection)

    My turn? Couldn't just run in and attack (since there are tied up and trapped villiagers in front) So I say screw it.
    I burn a Fervor to cast SWIFT AIR BUBBLE on myself so I don't have to breathe the STINKING CLOUD. Then use my standard to cast MURDEROUS COMMAND on the Orog I can see.

    DM was blown away I could do that.
    We'll see what happens next

    That you need this feat to save is strong evidence we should ignore it. The feat is widely regarded as broken with only a few select game breakers higher on the list of feats which should not be allowed(Leadership, crafting, dazing spell, sacred geometry).

    It's cute that you did that but honestly walking out of the cloud would have saved your spell. More importantly you had a 10/min level buff on your prepared spells, didn't cast it prior to delving, and burnt a fervor to use it. If that's the indicator it's like playing with bumpers for people who are unprepared.

    Feedback is awesome.

    We are playing a Module, not an app and were literally dropped into the encounter. There was no opportunity to 'research' what we were facing.
    I had prepared AIR BUBBLE simply because I was told we were going to an Island and knowing that meant water would be around and I am wearing plate, would be prudent.

    I didn't leave the cloud because he cast it in an enclosed room. It affects HIS allies as well. Now I am buffed up (currently have War blessing, Divine Favor and Bull's Strength running) in a room where the Orog's will need to make saves to attack me.

    Next round I plan on moving towards the Caster and wrecking him. I'll keep you posted.

    And as for DIVINE PROTECTION. Yes, It's a good feat. Usually If I wanna play a tank I'll be a Dwarf with Steel Soul and Glory of Old Trait for a whopping +5 to all saves vs Magic. More than 1 way to skin a cat.


    Undone wrote:
    FormerFiend wrote:

    Well, I can honestly say I've lost all interest in the class at this point.

    The only reason I was interested in the class to start with was the full bab. Made it feel like a paladin who didn't have to be lawful good. At this point, I might as well just play a cleric. I'd rather have level nine spells than the rest of it.

    It's actually not the case that they are useless the problem is that the cleric is just straight up better.

    Quote:
    And the ability to add enhancements to weapons and armour...and the ability to increase damage dice... and swift action spells...and staying proficiency in whatever the he'll they want...and being able to use weapons for flavor and still be useful...

    Is quicken not a thing?

    Last I checked it's a thing

    Quote:
    None of this really makes the PF Cleric or Druid anything like a Codzilla. Allow me to share a few bits of a quote from 2008 I think really sums the whole sort of online urban legend that was the codzilla.

    I understand that CoDZilla from 3.5 is not the same here but the truth is that CoDZilla is a measure of power disparity between Cleric or druid between the rest of the classes, not that of the monsters. Anything another class can do will be done by them but better. Even the summoner is worse at summoning (San's archetypes which are banned in PFS and most home games) little is better than melee (Only highly optimized builds and they have no utility) and even worse it's a full caster with 90% of the power of the wizard list. To put it plainly if the bard is the jack of all trades the druid is the king of all trades.

    The 3.5 CoDZilla may be a misnomer for what I mean but the point is still the same. The druid and cleric can complete encounters designed for a party of four by themselves if built will. In 3.5 they can complete MORE encounters by themselves designed for 6 players.

    Quote:
    And the ability to add enhancements to weapons and armour...and the ability to increase damage dice... and swift
    ...

    For self buffs they quicken spells without raising the level slot, which is pretty damn good. But that is all I see on their list that a Cleric can't do better, they can raise the damage dice? SO? If big dice are what you are after the Great sword is a thing,

    I was finally hoping for a paladian for any alignment, what we got was a worse cleric


    Quote:


    Feedback is awesome.

    We are playing a Module, not an app and were literally dropped into the encounter. There was no opportunity to 'research' what we were facing.
    I had prepared AIR BUBBLE simply because I was told we were going to an Island and knowing that meant water would be around and I am wearing plate, would be prudent.

    I didn't leave the cloud because he cast it in an enclosed room. It affects HIS allies as well. Now I am buffed up (currently have War blessing, Divine Favor and Bull's Strength running) in a room where the Orog's will need to make saves to attack me.

    Next round I plan on moving towards the Caster and wrecking him. I'll keep you posted.

    And as for DIVINE PROTECTION. Yes, It's a good feat. Usually If I wanna play a tank I'll be a Dwarf with Steel Soul and Glory of Old Trait for a whopping +5 to all saves vs Magic. More than 1 way to skin a cat.

    So why didn't you cast a long duration buff prior to being dropped into the encounter? Air bubble should last an hour or more if you're level 6.

    Divine protection is also significantly better than steel soul dwarf because +4-5 to ALL saves including traps, supernatural abilities, and others is far stronger.

    My point is any buff with 10/min duration or longer fervor is a waste.

    Quote:

    For self buffs they quicken spells without raising the level slot, which is pretty damn good. But that is all I see on their list that a Cleric can't do better, they can raise the damage dice? SO? If big dice are what you are after the Great sword is a thing,

    I was finally hoping for a paladian for any alignment, what we got was a worse cleric

    Agreed. A reach weapon + growth domain is more damage in practice than any buff the fervor'ed spells can give you.


    Rob Godfrey wrote:

    For self buffs they quicken spells without raising the level slot, which is pretty damn good. But that is all I see on their list that a Cleric can't do better, they can raise the damage dice? SO? If big dice are what you are after the Great sword is a thing,

    I was finally hoping for a paladian for any alignment, what we got was a worse cleric

    They're tankier.

    Quicken Blessings actually turns a lot of mild mannered talents into something terrifying.

    Quickened summons? Yes please.

    Quickened short range D. Doors into full attacks? I'll take it.

    Swift Action Luck Domain? Moar please.

    Charming/Glorious presence is actually pretty decent too. SAnctuary's main fault is that it deactivates the first time you attack so useless to a battle cleric. However the warpriest doesn't have this problem.

    I look at sacred armor and I see means to save yourself on spells and money.

    Honestly it's not a bad class. I think people's expectations were just a tad high.


    Undone wrote:


    So why didn't you cast a long duration buff prior to being dropped into the encounter? Air bubble should last an hour or more if you're level 6.

    ...because he had no idea he was going to even need it until the encounter started?

    I mean even with scouting and knowledge checks you can't read another caster's prepped spell list. It might be considered lucky he had the spell at all.

    I can understand this argument if you were talking about a bread and butter buff like greater magic weapon or some such.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    *Scratches head and tries to figure out how a minutes/day buff is any sort of money saver*

    People's expectations were high, yes, because what was originally showcased was a good class with some minor flaws. It looked largely well balanced, if a bit MAD.

    Then it was nerf stomped.


    TarkXT wrote:
    Undone wrote:


    So why didn't you cast a long duration buff prior to being dropped into the encounter? Air bubble should last an hour or more if you're level 6.

    ...because he had no idea he was going to even need it until the encounter started?

    I mean even with scouting and knowledge checks you can't read another caster's prepped spell list. It might be considered lucky he had the spell at all.

    I can understand this argument if you were talking about a bread and butter buff like greater magic weapon or some such.

    My argument is more if you prepare a long duration buff it should be cast. There is no reason to prepare it and not cast it before going into a place with potential encounters. Similar to freedom of movement.

    Quote:
    They're tankier.

    Debatable, there are archetypes which give clerics HAP.

    Quote:


    Quicken Blessings actually turns a lot of mild mannered talents into something terrifying.

    Few if any are better than normal quickened spells

    Quote:


    Quickened summons? Yes please.

    Agreed it's great... unfortunately they are lower and you can't use the really good summoning feat superior summons.

    Quote:


    Quickened short range D. Doors into full attacks? I'll take it.

    You mean like a strictly worse version of the cleric's travel domain?

    Quote:
    Swift Action Luck Domain? Moar please.

    It has no duration you can do it pre combat.

    Quote:


    Charming/Glorious presence is actually pretty decent too. SAnctuary's main fault is that it deactivates the first time you attack so useless to a battle cleric. However the warpriest doesn't have this problem.

    I'd argue the love domain is significantly stronger with a similar effect.

    Quote:


    I look at sacred armor and I see means to save yourself on spells and money.

    Uh no. Sacred armor is just bad.

    Quote:


    Honestly it's not a bad class. I think people's expectations were just a tad high.

    It exists in the same design space as the paladin and the cleric. Our expectations were that it would exist in the same design space and have only 2 possibilities. Be strictly worse or be good. It's basically fallen into the former.

    Be aware that being strictly worse than the cleric does NOT make it bad it just makes it worse than a cleric in every way.

    Dark Archive

    Just a note: I've heard of people considering scrapping all 9th-level spell casters entirely and just using 6th level spell casters in their place. In such games, the Warpriest would shine more than it would in a normal game.

    The problem is mostly that people are comparing the Warpriest (which is a nice, solid class with a couple neat abilities) to the Cleric (hands down one of the strongest classes in the whole game). It's pretty obvious the Warpriest wasn't going to be better than the Cleric, because for every class feature the Warpriest gets, the Cleric gets bigger, stronger spells, and faster, too.

    As far as being an alignment-less Paladin, well, that alignment and code is what makes the Paladin strong.


    Not sure what reference you are reading but AIR BUBBLE lasts 1min/level not 10min level.

    Shadow Lodge

    Its not that people are comparing it to the Cleric, and it's debatable if its one f the strongest in PF. Its that people are comparing the Warpriest to the battle cleric and Cleric/Fighter and finding the Warpriest lacking in the place it was suppossed to excell at. Particularly whenn the Battle Cleric type is generally accepted as among the weakest forms of Cleric comparatively. (Not sure I agree or disagree on that, but thats neither here nor there). There is also the fact that the Inquisitor, Oracle, and other classes that likewise just do the warpriest's "job" better than the Warpriest.


    Xavier Longsaddle wrote:
    Not sure what reference you are reading but AIR BUBBLE lasts 1min/level not 10min level.

    I appear to have mixed up my spells. I was thinking of the hours/level aboleth lung. Which would not function anyway. Although neutralize poison would and it's hours/level.

    Quote:


    Its not that people are comparing it to the Cleric, and it's debatable if its one f the strongest in PF. Its that people are comparing the Warpriest to the battle cleric and Cleric/Fighter and finding the Warpriest lacking in the place it was suppossed to excell at. Particularly whenn the Battle Cleric type is generally accepted as among the weakest forms of Cleric comparatively. (Not sure I agree or disagree on that, but thats neither here nor there). There is also the fact that the Inquisitor, Oracle, and other classes that likewise just do the warpriest's "job" better than the Warpriest.

    This is more or less the crux of the issue.


    Wow, I totally missed the swift casting from Fervor, that's a huge pluss!

    How does Sacred Weapon really work?:
    I'm wondering if the sacred weapon enchantment bonuses stack with regular enchantment bonuses. I'm wondering, due to this:
    Sacred Weapon wrote:
    These bonuses stack with any existing bonuses the weapon might have, to a maximum of +5.

    This isn't stated in the paragraph (but just under) about the sacred weapon enchantment bonuses. However, it still says "These bonuses", it may not just be referring to the weapon special abilities.

    Undone wrote:
    Tark wrote:
    I look at sacred armor and I see means to save yourself on spells and money.
    Uh no. Sacred armor is just bad.

    The enhancements are very good.

    Undone wrote:
    Tark wrote:
    Swift Action Luck Domain? Moar please.
    It has no duration you can do it pre combat.

    And now you can use it in combat as well, after you used it the first time or your scout failed. And I disagree that it's "strictly worse" than the Cleric. Warpriest does some things MUCH better. In fact, I would say that the Cleric only does spellcasting and channel better. But that, on the other hand, spells is a big one. And warpriest is WAY better than the paladin at being not lawful.


    Seranov wrote:

    It's pretty obvious the Warpriest wasn't going to be better than the Cleric, because for every class feature the Warpriest gets, the Cleric gets bigger, stronger spells, and faster, too.

    As far as being an alignment-less Paladin, well, that alignment and code is what makes the Paladin strong.

    Untrue, Beta version is better than Cleric in levels 1-8. In any game I run, we use Beta for Sacred Weapon BAB (full BAB), but we use final for blessings.

    Cleric still wins when its gets 5th level spells and above, but Full Bab 6th power caster made Warpriest unique.

    Now it is just a weaker cleric...


    Actually I am finding he can either blow his fervor wad and play like a Pally for a few rounds or hang back and be just as good as a typical cleric.

    We are in round 14 with Orogs (3 dead 6 left) 3 are Fighters, 1 monk a cleric and a wizard (the fighters are attacking at +12, around 60ish hp)

    We are level 6 and my 16 Str plus wpn focus (+9 to hit) is as good as the brawler.
    With my Bulls Str and Divine favor up I am power attacking at 1d20+11+3-2 and hitting around 25-30ish per strike.

    The fight is not going well but the war priest is shining. He has taken 2 solid hits and 1 AOO but swift CMW them away (Fey foundling ftw) has killed 2 orogs himself and swift airbubbled to ignore the stinking cloud the wizard dropped.

    Before everyone hates on me for staying in the cloud while everyone retreats is I am buying time for tthe villagers the orogs captured to escape.


    Xavier Longsaddle wrote:

    Actually I am finding he can either blow his fervor wad and play like a Pally for a few rounds or hang back and be just as good as a typical cleric.

    We are in round 14 with Orogs (3 dead 6 left) 3 are Fighters, 1 monk a cleric and a wizard (the fighters are attacking at +12, around 60ish hp)

    We are level 6 and my 16 Str plus wpn focus (+9 to hit) is as good as the brawler.
    With my Bulls Str and Divine favor up I am power attacking at 1d20+11+3-2 and hitting around 25-30ish per strike.

    The fight is not going well but the war priest is shining. He has taken 2 solid hits and 1 AOO but swift CMW them away (Fey foundling ftw) has killed 2 orogs himself and swift airbubbled to ignore the stinking cloud the wizard dropped.

    Before everyone hates on me for staying in the cloud while everyone retreats is I am buying time for tthe villagers the orogs captured to escape.

    What I'm hearing is no one in your group is remotely optimized and you took higher than a 14 in your primary stat and attempted to build well while you almost equally contribute after 2 rounds of combat and still do about half the damage of the average attack type class while having inferior magic to clerics.


    Not at all.
    Check the avatar avatar and re read my first post.
    The DM set a 20 point buy with No score allowed below 10.
    So I am sorry if not dumping Int to a 7 for extra points does not sit well with you.
    I am
    Str 16
    Dex 10
    Con 14
    Wis 15
    Cha 14 (for Smite and save bonus, remember I took the archetype that grants smite instead of Channel)

    Rd1 used 1 round to use Destruction Blessing and Swift Divine Favor then moved within 20feet (started 40 feet away)

    Rd 2 I swift Bulls strength then charged and Smashed with 1d10+7+3+6 damage.

    (Kindly so me a cleric with the same build rules that is so much better and could be hitting for this damage by round 2)

    Fun ensued. The Brawler Circled around back to attack the rear (which he regretted)

    Then after I had killed 2 orogs the enemy wizard entered and dropped a STINKING CLOUD inside the barn we are fighting in. Catching everyone except the Brawler and I was the oly one who passed the save.

    I happily swift air bubbled and continued to wreck face while everyone else had to run.

    In the same circumstances a cleric or battle cleric with the same spell load would be down 2 attacks vs me cause he actually has to choose between casting and fighting.

    I am not saying that at high levels, 9th level spells aren't the bomb, but action economy MATTERS.

    It's the reason Magai are awesome and Edilon's, wand using familiars and well built animal companions are awesome force multipliers. Extra actions.


    Undone wrote:


    What I'm hearing is no one in your group is remotely optimized and you took higher than a 14 in your primary stat and attempted to build well while you almost equally contribute after 2 rounds of combat and still do about half the damage of the average attack type class while having inferior magic to clerics.

    Really?

    How did you get that since I never made any reference to the rest of the party whatsoever?

    The Brawler is 20 Str normally and has to suck a -2 when using Flurry.
    I would not call that dumping Str. Probably not as high as it possibly could be but still decent.

    Also, we are not TRYING to break the game. We are testing how decently built chars with the new classes are going to play.

    Apologies I did not realize you thought we were trying tto power game the crap out of the module.
    It's ok man, I used to be like that too.


    Our BRAWLER wrote in our discussion tab:

    Actually you have do an estimate of the CR and see how we should have fared:
    Wizard/ Orog casting 3rd level spells- 5th level at least- CR 5 or 6 (depends on how you factor in Orog). (though I am left wondering why it's only 2 magic missiles if 5th level)
    The fighters are hitting at +12. Looks like their strength is 20 (based on 2 handed damage of 7). So we need to hunt up +7. That's easy, Orog gives 2, so +5 needed. So fighter 4 with weapon focus greataxe. Again, CR 5.

    So if we assume no synergy between orog levels and wizard, we end up with a party of 4 CR 5s. By EL calculation that gives a level +3 encounter of 9. That's not quite suicidal, but certainly a very hard one. Given the situation (hostages, restricted entry, knowing we're coming, etc) the EL is effectively higher.
    (this doesn't take into account the Hobgoblins beforehand, or the werebear ally which does adjust things a fair amount).
    I think what occurred here is that the GM came into the game with the preconceived notion that the ACG were overpowered and he threw a viciously hard encounter at us because he thought it was the way to test the 'overpowered' classes.

    An apl +3 encounter is pretty hard.
    The War priest is the only one who has managed to ignore the cloud and do damage EVERY round after the first. And he is the only one able to soak 3 two handed greataxe hits.

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