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Well, in the rules, so long as the foe is flat-footed vs you, you can sneak attack.
However, if a foe has concealment vs you, you can't sneak attack them.
To my knowledge....
If you were in said smoke cloud, or they were, the would have concealment vs you, as you would be unable to see them clearly, as per smoke- even at 5 feet away while in smoke, they have 20% concealment, negating sneak attack. Odds are, your dm was right for the wrong reasons.
If you opponents have acted in the combat, they are no longer flatfooted, so if you took your first action to throw a smoke bomb and then the opponents acted, they are technically no longer denied their dexterity bonus simply for not observing you.
Its a problem with the stealth rules that most people house rule, but isnt actually in raw. I just double checked and even with the errata it doesnt explicately state that opponents are flatfooted if they fail against your stealth check.
So your gm was TECHNICALLY correct, but the vast majority of dms houserule in that you can get your sneak attack if you successfully stealth.
Ha! Well lookie there. That would've made sense. Unfortunately the entire group was immune for some reason. XD
If you plan on using things like smoke, and your dm is inexperienced, be sure to bring the rules with you- know the rules for everything your character can do.
New DM's have to improvise often, because they don't know the rules- keep the rules on you, and it becomes a different story.
If your dm purposely ignores those rules, or makes everything immune, try and talk to him reasonably- it's no fun to play a game where all your powers are negated, doubly so when your powers are already situational and about as good as a fighter's hit, but a fighter's hit doesn't need the situational things.
New DM's tend to get scared of extra dice-
Compare your dice to it's average damage of +3.5 per sneak attack dice vs whatever the fighter is doing.
terrible tragedy
Sounds like you've got a case of the 'bad DM's. My prescription is roll a new PC, or find a new table. Rogues have a hard enough time as it is, with even the most merciful DM's. (S)he sounds like (s)he's of the camp that won't let you get your SA on iterative attacks, and that just makes the Rogue worthless. Talk it out, and if (s)he doesn't budge...
Run. Run fast.
A rouge should only amblush. Only a rogue can ambush
*Rummages through things for Pilkunnussija repellant*
terrible tragedySounds like you've got a case of the 'bad DM's. My prescription is roll a new PC, or find a new table. Rogues have a hard enough time as it is, with even the most merciful DM's. (S)he sounds like (s)he's of the camp that won't let you get your SA on iterative attacks, and that just makes the Rogue worthless. Talk it out, and if (s)he doesn't budge...
Run. Run fast.
Well, he couldn't have actually sneak attacked in that situation anyway...
Not for the reason the dm described, though.
*Has no idea what Pinkunnussija repellent is and is wondering if it hurts. * Overall my dm has been good.this is probably just a fluke. I'll show him your opinions and see if I can't change his mind.
Not surprising you don't know what that is.
It's not even a English word.Yep. If your dm seems alright, he probably just didn't know how to handle the situation. It's rare you have to use the smoke rules, so I doubt he knew what to do. As for stealth and sneak attack, remember it works if the opponent is flat footed (being invisible fulfills this requirement, for example.) or you are flanking.
terrible tragedySounds like you've got a case of the 'bad DM's. My prescription is roll a new PC, or find a new table. Rogues have a hard enough time as it is, with even the most merciful DM's. (S)he sounds like (s)he's of the camp that won't let you get your SA on iterative attacks, and that just makes the Rogue worthless. Talk it out, and if (s)he doesn't budge...
Run. Run fast.
Well, he couldn't have actually sneak attacked in that situation anyway...
Not for the reason the dm described, though.
Sounds like he could've tossed the smoke in the surprise round, in which case SA is valid in the scenario. Otherwise, yeah, it isn't. Some DM's are afraid of the fistful of die a Rogue gets to roll on SA's, and don't understand that at the end of the day, most Rogues should be rolling more to just stay on-par with the rest of the party members, nevertheless surpass them.
Sounds like he could've tossed the smoke in the surprise round, in which case SA is valid in the scenario. Otherwise, yeah, it isn't. Some DM's are afraid of the fistful of die a Rogue gets to roll on SA's, and don't understand that at the end of the day, most Rogues should be rolling more to just stay on-par with the rest of the party members, nevertheless surpass them.Well, he couldn't have actually sneak attacked in that situation anyway...
Not for the reason the dm described, though.
Well, that's true if he attacked an enemy that wasn't in the smoke.
Concealment of any sort on the target prevents sneak attack, and smoke gives 50% concealment at 10ft or farther, and 20% at 5feet.
Sorry for the repeats. Phone's going crazy. X3. I definitely had the surprise round. I just couldn't have sa'd the leader.
Yep, that's about it.
Nope. Any concealment shuts Down sneak attack, unless you have a certain feat.
Let me dig it up.
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So if you threw the smoke bomb on the surprise round, then everyone is in initiative, did your rogue get to go first after the surprise round? Because if the group you were ambushing had a lower initiative than you then you would have gotten to attack them while they are flat-footed still...if the smoke bomb isn't a problem with getting off a sneak attack.
Until they go on their initiative then they are flat-footed.
So if you threw the smoke bomb on the surprise round, then everyone is in initiative, did your rogue get to go first after the surprise round? Because if the group you were ambushing had a lower initiative than you then you would have gotten to attack them while they are flat-footed still...if the smoke bomb isn't a problem with getting off a sneak attack.
Until they go on their initiative then they are flat-footed.
This is also true.
Hmm. I know with many dms the rouge is underpowered but I love to complement it with more realistic strategy. In smoke you still technically get an sa if you're flanking right?
No, you cant sneak attack someone who has concealment. Oddly enough, throwing a smoke bomb is often a bad strategy for ninjas and rogues.
Hmm. I know with many dms the rouge is underpowered but I love to complement it with more realistic strategy. In smoke you still technically get an sa if you're flanking right?No, you cant sneak attack someone who has concealment. Oddly enough, throwing a smoke bomb is often a bad strategy for ninjas and rogues.
Unless you take shadow strike, blind fight, improved blind-fight, and greater blind fight (requires 15 ranks in perception, so at least 15th level.)
Or are an ifrit with the firesight feat.
Hmm. I know with many dms the rouge is underpowered but I love to complement it with more realistic strategy. In smoke you still technically get an sa if you're flanking right?No, you cant sneak attack someone who has concealment. Oddly enough, throwing a smoke bomb is often a bad strategy for ninjas and rogues.Unless you take shadow strike, blind fight, improved blind-fight, and greater blind fight (requires 15 ranks in perception, so at least 15th level.)
Or are an ifrit with the firesight feat.
True, there are exceptions, I just meant by default, sneak attack is prevented by concealment, which is kind of dumb, since the iconic sneak attack is a guy shiving you in a dark alley in my mind.
True, there are exceptions, I just meant by default, sneak attack is prevented by concealment, which is kind of dumb, since the iconic sneak attack is a guy shiving you in a dark alley in my mind.
Witch is why he should be a half-elf with low light vision.
:P
Now, if we are looking at an opinons standpoint, I think that the "no sneak attack on concealment" makes some sense- you can target the vitals of someone you can't really see.
But, with how many rouge situations have you in concealment, I think it should be loosened to no sneak attack on total concealment- if you can't see your foe, no sneak attack.
Consider a one-level dip in Oracle for either the Flames or Waves mysteries, and the revelations that allow seeing through the smoke unhindered, and carry around an Eversmoking bottle once you can afford it... Now you've turned it into a tactical advantage. Until you can afford the bottle, use your 3x daily Obscuring Mists to wreak havoc. Especially with reach weapons (may not fit your build, though), you now will have total concealment for every attack, which will give you sneak.
It's been truly worthless.
Scent?
Do remember, you auto-pinpoint living creatures within 5 feet. (They still have full concealment if you can't see them, but you know what square they are in)
And you know if someone is within 15ft of you all the time, and it's higher if the wind isn't blowing the scent away from the person- it defaults to 30ft. Any living being within 30ft of you triggers your scent, and tells you a creature(s) have come within 30ft. A move action can tell you what direction they are.
This special quality allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source’s location.
A creature with the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom (or Survival) check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10 (no matter what kind of surface holds the scent). This DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Survival skill. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
That's a pretty good strategy. However I work in sync with another rouge most of the time so I doubt he'd appreciate that. Then again he did just watch as I was forced to do the ambush ALONE. Xx
Not many allies appreciate a 50% or 20% chance to miss any given attack.
A rouge should only amblush. Only a rogue can ambush*Rummages through things for Pilkunnussija repellant*
Did you just call him "One who copulates with commas"? Or just a "grammar national socialist"? Cause either of them are funny :D
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pilkunnussija
Haha, well, nothing's more thematic than a group built around a solid tactic like that, maybe suggest that to him, too. You'll get a reputation as a cloud of death... Which could be awesome.
Also, ingenuity is merely par the course for an effective rogue. If you wanna be a 3/4 BAB melee class (especially TWF'ing) and actually be worth anything, ya gotta get creative. Half the time I run encounters totally off the rails with my antics, and my DM loves it-- now I make him do the problem solving.
If your dm wonders how scent could be so accurate or potent, keep in mind that there are service dogs that can help detect seizures before they happen, by smelling the chemical output change in the person's body.
A more simplified version- a dog's scent is practically keen enough to smell your brain.
A rouge should only amblush. Only a rogue can ambush*Rummages through things for Pilkunnussija repellant*Did you just call him "One who copulates with commas"? Or just a "grammar national socialist"? Cause either of them are funny :D
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pilkunnussija
Ding. This guy wins an internet.
Well, a rouge has as cleric bab, meaning their base attack bouns is equal to 3/4ths of their level.
Twf stands for Two weapon fighting- a feat chain.
Hello. I was recently in a session where I was a rouge ambushing a large group. I was outnumbered but not spotted, so I
tried to create a distraction to start the ambush. I hit the group leader
with a smoke bomb and remained undetected, but when I attacked my dm said I
couldn't get sneak attack damage. His logic was that even though I hadn't
been detected, the enemy was aware that they were under attack and
therefore couldn't be sneak attacked. I think this is bs. If they don't
know where I am then how could they possibly anticipate where to defend? It
completely defeats the purpose of an ambush. I would love to hear your
opinions. Thanks.
I think your DM is wrong, but not for the reasons you think. His argument isn't entirely without merit, but gets very, very technical with zero point space.
You use your surprise round to throw the bomb. After that, they're going to act. They're no longer flat footed.
If the leader is in a smoke bomb you can't see him (he has concealment) so you can't sneak attack him at all. You attack from whatever corner you want, he defends from a back corner and you pass through concealment.
The leader can sneak attack YOU though, because the attacker can pick any corner of his square to attack from, he picks the front. You pick any corner of your square to defend from , but none of them will pass through a line with concealment.
Could someone please site where in the rules it states that you can't sa a person that is concealed.
Thank You
"The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment."
On the rouge page, in the sneak attack section.