wakedown |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now that the ACG has had a chance to percolate a little further, here's a question on the wording of the sharp shoot deed for the Bolt Ace archetype.
Sharp Shoot (Ex): At 1st level, a bolt ace can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing a crossbow at a target within its first range increment. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point. This deed replaces deadeye.
I see two ways to read this.
Reading #1: The gunslinger spends 1 point of grit and all their attacks this round are resolved against touch AC.
Reading #2: The gunslinger spends 1 point of grit and their next single attack is resolved against touch AC.
I imagine reading #1 makes more sense in gameplay as otherwise reading #2 makes the archetype a little less exciting for a generally suboptimal method of combat. I also look to this classic Gunslinger deed for guidance:
Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, the gunslinger can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing beyond her firearm’s first range increment. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point per range increment beyond the first.
In play, I've seen gunslingers spend 1 grit and make all their attacks against touch AC from a further range for a round. Maybe this is incorrect as I never dug down into the exact language until today.
I imagine some GMs may allow the gunslinger to make multiple attacks a round modified by either of these deeds, but spend as many grit as attacks made. Since there is no action cost cited and there's this intro text for deed:
Unless otherwise noted, a deed can be performed multiple successive times, as long as the appropriate amount of grit is spent to perform the deed.
Thoughts? How do you handle the Deadeye deed? And thus, how would you handle the Sharp Shoot deed, as they are worded identically?
Raisse |
I imagine some GMs may allow the gunslinger to make multiple attacks a round modified by either of these deeds, but spend as many grit as attacks made.
Count me in this group. It says that you can resolve an attack against touch AC. Normal Gunslinger had better have lots of Grit or really lucky with crits if he intends to full-attack against touch AC from far away.
I would assume the same would apply for the crossbow.
Arturius Fischer |
First off: Woohooo! An official "Crossbowslinger" conversion makes me happy!
Second off: "An attack" means "a attack" or "one attack". Use your Grit, get one easy attack. Decent enough for an XBow user, and is far more balanced than Firearms in general.
In play, I've always seen gunslingers spend 1 grit and make all their attacks against touch AC from a further range for a round.
Then the in-play example is likely wrong. This is a single attack.
If you want to use either on multiple attacks, you must spend the Grit point each time. If it was otherwise, the ability would read "Until the end of the round, the Gunslinger may do X".
Joe M. |
Well arguably crossbow does, but then that is what ace bolter is for.
I must be missing something, but what's the general case against the crossbow (pre-Bolt-Ace)?
Seems to me that if you grab <Rapid Reload> and use a light crossbow, you've spent 1 feat but are now just as good an archer as a longbow-wielder. Maybe better, since you've got the higher threat range.
But the "crossbows suck" line seems to be such an embedded piece of internet received-wisdom that I hope there's more to it than that ... Is it just that reloading provokes? That you can't get a Strength bonus to damage? Those don't strike me as serious shortcomings, so I must be missing something.
Rapid Reload (Combat)
Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, or heavy). You can reload such weapons quickly.Prerequisite: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen).
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow) or a move action (for a heavy crossbow). Reloading a crossbow still provokes an attack of opportunity.
If you have selected this feat for hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.
Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, or a full-round action to reload a heavy crossbow.
Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow.
Thomas Long 175 |
David Neilson wrote:Well arguably crossbow does, but then that is what ace bolter is for.I must be missing something, but what's the general case against the crossbow (pre-Bolt-Ace)?
Seems to me that if you grab <Rapid Reload> and use a light crossbow, you've spent 1 feat but are now just as good an archer as a longbow-wielder. Maybe better, since you've got the higher threat range.
But the "crossbows suck" line seems to be such an embedded piece of internet received-wisdom that I hope there's more to it than that ... Is it just that reloading provokes? That you can't get a Strength bonus to damage? Those don't strike me as serious shortcomings, so I must be missing something.
So you are paying a feat to be basically worse in every single way. There is no advantage to using a crossbow but plenty of disadvantages.
Joe M. |
19-20/x2 doesn't increase dpr in comparison to a x3. You lose out on strength damage on each attack. You have shorter range than a bow. You have to take a feat tax just to full attack like bows do naturally. You cannot use multishot with crossbows, only bows. So you are paying a feat to be basically worse in every single way. There is no advantage to using a crossbow but plenty of disadvantages.
Thanks for sharing. Losing Manyshot hurts. Looks like that was what I was missing.
Still, even with these disadvantages relative to a longbow archer, I'd hardly draw the strong conclusion that I've seen thrown around, that crossbows aren't "viable." You'll be down relative to a longbow archer, but given how powerful archery is in PF it's not like you'll be an ineffective combatant or anything.
:-)
Thomas Long 175 |
Indeed, the damage for any weapon isn't in the weapon itself, its in the static bonuses. The static bonuses for bows are already smaller than melee weapons (you won't get 1.5 x ability mod ever, damage die are all around lower, and deadly aim will only ever give you 2 for every 4 bab rather than 2 handing's 3 damage/4 bab) so losing out on the chance to do 1x ability score is enormous.
Look at it this way. By the time you get manyshot, you're getting 4 attacks per turn with haste, with the damage on the first one doubled. That means at level 6, with just a 14 strength and no equipment involved to buff it, you're looking at a loss of 10 damage before dpr (and 8 of that damage is at highest BAB-2). So even before you really start to buff strength and at really low levels you're looking at good chunks of damage falling off.
Gauss |
Thomas Long 175, I agree with most of your statements earlier in the comparison of Crossbow and Bow except the one regarding 19-20/x2 vs x3 DPR.
Statistically 19-20/x2 is identical to 20/x3.
Given two weapons with identical damage (which is not the case here but that is another matter) you will do exactly the same DPR damage if one is 19-20/x2 and the other is 20/x3.
Thomas Long 175 |
Thomas Long 175, I agree with most of your statements earlier in the comparison of Crossbow and Bow except the one regarding 19-20/x2 vs x3 DPR.
Statistically 19-20/x2 is identical to 20/x3.
Given two weapons with identical damage (which is not the case here but that is another matter) you will do exactly the same DPR damage if one is 19-20/x2 and the other is 20/x3.
Which is exactly what I said. I said 19-20/x2 doesn't increase dpr in comparison to a x3. So you literally just restated what I said, except in a different format. :P
Torrik Von-Likdenstein |
Ok guys, this hasn't been looked at in a while but I was looking at making one myself.
So, the build I'm looking at envolves retraining of 2 (or 3 feats).
So Starting with a heavy crossbow, by level 5 you will be able to fire as a free action (I will post the feats at the end). Now at higher levels (9 or 11 in particular) I will be switching to a Double Crossbow, dropping my damage from 1D10 to 1D8, however, due to rapid reload+ crossbow mastery+ Inexplicable Reload at Liv 11, I'm looking at being able to get 7 shots off a round, 2 more then I believe most people can max out at Lv 11 (as a human, need the bonus feat).
Now what I'm wondering is if there any item that can further reduce the reload speed.
Feat tree:
1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
3: Deadly Aim
4: Rapid Reload (retrained for double from heavy)
5: Crossbow Mastery (retrained for double from heavy)
7: Rapid Shot
8: Clustered Shot
9: Critical Focus (can be retrained at Lv 11 for signature deed to fire without AOs)
11: Improved Precise Shot