Ravingdork |
14 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Universal Monster Ability rules in the Bestiary say the following: Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity.
However, the Core Rulebook appears to possess contradictory text: A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.
So is it a standard action? Or is it the spell's casting time? Or perhaps they are two distinct rules where the former rule applies to monster spell-like abilities only, and the latter rule applies to class spell-like abilities only?
This thread is primarily for clean, organized FAQing of the question, but feel free to discuss it as well.
LazarX |
The Universal Monster Ability rules in the Bestiary say the following: Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity.
However, the Core Rulebook appears to possess contradictory text: A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.
So is it a standard action? Or is it the spell's casting time? Or perhaps they are two distinct rules where the former rule applies to monster spell-like abilities only, and the latter rule applies to class spell-like abilities only?
This thread is primarily for clean, organized FAQing of the question, but feel free to discuss it as well.
It's a standard action like most spells unless the spell being emulated as a longer or shorter casting time. Such as Immediate for "Feather Fall" or longer for spells such as Summon or Raise Dead.
Basically, it's whatever the normal spell's casting time would be.
HangarFlying |
SLA that are based on spells with a casting time greater that a standard action are whatever is given for the spell. So, for example, those creatures that have a summon ability (demons, for example) take 1 round to use that SLA.
There is a dev comment on here about it. Might take me some time to round it up.
Ravingdork |
There is a contradiction though. One says "unless noted otherwise" whereas the other says "unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description."
The former is referring to the spell-like ability itself, whereas the latter is referring to both the spell-like ability and the typical spell. If that wasn't the case, then why would the wording be different at all?
pezlerpolychromatic |
An excellent question, Ravingdork. If I had to go with my gut, I'd go with what it says in the CRB. Here's my thinking: it says in the Bestiary that it's a standard action unless noted otherwise. But do ANY of the SLAs in the bestiary have a notation changing the casting time? Any examples at all? I don't have my book with me, but I'm going to hazard a guess and say that none do.
Joe M. |
Yeah, it's not the clearest of text. I take it that the CRB is the full rule, spelling out what was intended by "unless noted otherwise," and that the UMR text is just incomplete.
And, for what it's worth, I asked Mark about this recently** after the question came up in play, HERE's his answer:
Joe M. wrote:A devil's summon ability—standard action or full-round?Full-round. The bit about longer cast times to match the spell is hidden somewhere in the CRB, but I found it at one point.
:-)
** In his informal/unofficial "Ask" thread. Consider all the necessary qualifiers added.
wraithstrike |
There is a contradiction though. One says "unless noted otherwise" whereas the other says "unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description."
The former is referring to the spell-like ability itself, whereas the latter is referring to both the spell-like ability and the typical spell. If that wasn't the case, then why would the wording be different at all?
I see your point, but it seems like an editing error. I did FAQ it so they can get them to match when they get a chance to fix it.
Karui Kage |
Yeah, it's not the clearest of text. I take it that the CRB is the full rule, spelling out what was intended by "unless noted otherwise," and that the UMR text is just incomplete.
And, for what it's worth, I asked Mark about this recently** after the question came up in play, HERE's his answer:
Mark Seifter wrote:Joe M. wrote:A devil's summon ability—standard action or full-round?Full-round. The bit about longer cast times to match the spell is hidden somewhere in the CRB, but I found it at one point.:-)
** In his informal/unofficial "Ask" thread. Consider all the necessary qualifiers added.
That actually just seems to complicate the issue. The summon monster spell is "1 round", not "full round action". I've actually wondered about this myself, being in the middle of Wrath of the Righteous. :)
Joe M. |
Joe M. wrote:That actually just seems to complicate the issue. The summon monster spell is "1 round", not "full round action". I've actually wondered about this myself, being in the middle of Wrath of the Righteous. :)Yeah, it's not the clearest of text. I take it that the CRB is the full rule, spelling out what was intended by "unless noted otherwise," and that the UMR text is just incomplete.
And, for what it's worth, I asked Mark about this recently** after the question came up in play, HERE's his answer:
Mark Seifter wrote:Joe M. wrote:A devil's summon ability—standard action or full-round?Full-round. The bit about longer cast times to match the spell is hidden somewhere in the CRB, but I found it at one point.:-)
** In his informal/unofficial "Ask" thread. Consider all the necessary qualifiers added.
Yeah, summon is 1-round. That's what Mark & I were talking about (hence, "to match the spell" in his reply). (If there are any spells with a "full round" casting time that's not the "1 round" cast, I'm not aware of them.)
This sucks for devils & demons, though, since it makes it very difficult for them to use one of their iconic abilities in combat. Between that and the chance of failure even if the SLA manages to complete casting, keep the summoning for out of combat!
Karui Kage |
Is it? That's the only reason I commented. His response says it's "full-round" which *is* different from "1 round". It's nit-picky, I know. I'm sure he meant that it's 1 round, as the spell. Just wanted to clarify. :)
And yeah, I agree. Makes it a bit harder to use those summons in combat. Guess the key is to do it early before teleporting in? haha.
Nothing |
Ravingdork - I think this is a good question for a FAQ, as written they are two different generic rules, and I don't think it's always clear which should apply (if they weren't meant to be the same).
(If there are any spells with a "full round" casting time that's not the "1 round" cast, I'm not aware of them.)
These are the ones I found right away:
Crown of GloryStolen Light
Share Senses
Cleromancy
Contingency (Mythic Augmented)
Retrieve Item
Enemy's Heart
Whispered Lore
Matthew Downie |
There is a contradiction though. One says "unless noted otherwise" whereas the other says "unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description."
They're not inherently contradictory. If the second one is the correct one, the first one is merely being annoyingly vague - it could be taken to mean "unless noted otherwise, for example in the spell description".
Karui Kage |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If there are any spells with a "full round" casting time that's not the "1 round" cast, I'm not aware of them.
Well, I'm the guy to find out. :)
As it turns out, there aren't a lot of "full-round action" spells, and lots of "1 round" spells. As far as I know, the difference was:
Full Round Action: Starts on your turn, ends on your turn. Take a full round action, it finishes before the next person in initiative goes.
1 Round: Starts on your turn, doesn't finish until the start of your next turn. Gives enemies a chance to interrupt you.
So, it is a worthwhile difference to note.
1 Full-Round Action:
Cleromancy
Crown of Glory
Dirge of the Victorious Knights
Enemy's Heart
Fairness
Retrieve Item
Share Senses
Stolen Light
Whispering Lore
1 Round:
Antilife Shell
Arcane Cannon
Arcane Reinforcement
Blessing of the Mole
Blood Crow Strike
Bloodsworn Retribution
Brand, Greater
Call Lightning
Call Lightning Storm
Canopic Conversion
Changestaff
Cloak of Dreams
Conjure Black Pudding
Contact Nalfeshnee
Covetous Aura
Create Soul Gem
Curse of Magic Negation
Deadeye's Lore
Death Candle
Deep Slumber
Discovery Torch
Distressing Tone
Dominate Animal
Dominate Monster
Dominate Person
Eagle Aerie
Elemental Bombardment
Enhance Water
Enlarge Person
Enlarge Person, Mass
Enthrall
Fabricate Bullets
Fairness
False Alibi
Forest Friend
Forgetful Slumber
Frost Mammoth
Geas, Lesser
Gilded Whispers
Hidden Knowledge
Hypnotism
Infernal Healing
Infernal Healing, Greater
Insect Plague
Interrogation
Interrogation, Greater
Mad Monkeys
Maddening Oubliette
Mount
Mount, Communal
Necromantic Burden
Pesh Addiction, Lesser
Raging Rubble
Rain of Frogs
Reduce Person
Reduce Person, Mass
Rest Eternal
Revelation
Sacred Bond
Shared Sacrifice
Silence
Sleep
Sleepwalk
Soothe Construct
Spectral Saluqi
Spell Absorption
Spell Absorption, Greater
Spite
Statue
Storm of Vengeance
Summon Accuser
Summon Cacodaemon
Summon Cacodaemon, Greater
Summon Ceustodaemon
Summon Derghodaemon
Summon Eidolon
Summon Elder Worm
Summon Erodaemon
Summon Flight of Eagles
Summon Froghemoth
Summon Genie
Summon Genie, Greater
Summon Genie, Lesser
Summon Greater Demon
Summon Infernal Host
Summon Instrument
Summon Lesser Demon
Summon Lesser Psychopomp
Summon Meladaemon
Summon Minor Ally
Summon Minor Monster
Summon Monster I
Summon Monster II
Summon Monster III
Summon Monster IV
Summon Monster V
Summon Monster VI
Summon Monster VII
Summon Monster VIII
Summon Monster IX
Summon Nature's Ally I
Summon Nature's Ally II
Summon Nature's Ally III
Summon Nature's Ally IV
Summon Nature's Ally V
Summon Nature's Ally VI
Summon Nature's Ally VII
Summon Nature's Ally VIII
Summon Nature's Ally IX
Summon Swarm
Summon Thanadaemon
Summon Vanth
Surelife
Transplant Visage
Vampiric Hunger
Vengeful Outrage
Weaponwand
Zone of Silence
Joe M. |
On review, it looks like "full round action" casts are so rare that they might just be mistakes. Or at least, "full round action" casts are such corner cases that I don't feel too bad for my language. And I'm glad that this is the pattern. I'd rather not have to mess with remembering which spells are full round actions to cast v. which ones are "full round to cast."
The overwhelming pattern here is that a spell that takes longer than 1 standard action takes one full round to cast.
Only two of those listed (Whispering Lore and Share Senses) are on the PRD.
Of those two, Share Senses looks like it's meant to be a "1 round" cast rather than a "full round action" cast. It notes its casting time as "1 full round," language that straddles the line but seems closer to summon monster to me.
Whispering Lore is clearly a "full round action" cast, but it's a racial spell in the ARG (how often do these come up? plus it might just be a mistake) and even granting that 1 spell in the entire PRD is a pretty rare case. So I don't mind calling summon monster full round. Though I know it'll drive some folks crazy. :-P
Karui Kage |
Don't forget any spontaneous caster spell that has a metamagic feat applied to it. Those become "full round actions". Not "1 round" casting times, but "full round actions".
As I illustrated above, there is a very note-worthy difference. The former happens on your turn without a chance for the enemy to interrupt, the other requires you to be undisturbed for a round until your turn comes around again.
If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard (except for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which take 1 swift action to cast). Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time. Spells that take a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn.
Joe M. |
Don't forget any spontaneous caster spell that has a metamagic feat applied to it. Those become "full round actions". Not "1 round" casting times, but "full round actions".
As I illustrated above, there is a very note-worthy difference. The former happens on your turn without a chance for the enemy to interrupt, the other requires you to be undisturbed for a round until your turn comes around again.
Not at all denying that the difference is worth noting. It makes a huge difference for tactics. Your note about spontaneous metamagic is also appreciated.
I'm just glad that I wasn't missing a significant category of spells that are "full round action" cast to start with.
:-)