While reading the new Guide to PFS Organized Play, browsing through the new factions, I was stunned to see the phoenix emblem beside the sovereign courts entry. Because I know that phoenix, I've seen it before when I was looking for phoenix tattoo ideas. While many of the separate lines of the original stencil design are filled in, everything else form the shape of the head to to curl of the wings is identical to design that has been floating around the web for years.
It highly disappointing that Paizo could no be bothered to design original artwork for the fact emblems.
See one of the many images of the phoenix tattoo stencil here: http://www.tattoocanyon.com/72-phoenix-tattoos/3055-tattoo-style-stencil-fr ee-download-43224-phoenix-bird/
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Well, of course, they're both phoenixes. The overall presentation is similar, kind of a "phoenix rising", but that's a common phoenix motif.
The Paizo phoenix is asymmetrical, and the bird's "body" is rotated about 15 degree clockwise (so the left "wingtip" rises higher).
The tattoo site version features a bilaterally-symmetrical body (down to every flame), and the orientation is "straight", with a vertical axis of symmetry.
Could the Paizo bird be inspired by the tattoo bird? Yes. A more likely scenario is that both the Paizo and tattoo birds are inspired by some older, more classic design (which I haven't time to look into, so I admit this is conjecture on my part.)
If you Google "phoenix", though, and review "Images", you will see many similar phoenix designs, such as this one from a psychology research group:
http://phoenixpsychologylab.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/phoenix1.jpg
Verdict: "stolen" is quite a stretch!
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Well, of course, they're both phoenixes. The overall presentation is similar, kind of a "phoenix rising", but that's a common phoenix motif.
The Paizo phoenix is asymmetrical, and the bird's "body" is rotated about 15 degree clockwise (so the left "wingtip" rises higher).
The tattoo site version features a bilaterally-symmetrical body (down to every flame), and the orientation is "straight", with a vertical axis of symmetry.
Could the Paizo bird be inspired by the tattoo bird? Yes. A more likely scenario is that both the Paizo and tattoo birds are inspired by some older, more classic design (which I haven't time to look into, so I admit this is conjecture on my part.)
If you Google "phoenix", though, and review "Images", you will see many similar phoenix designs, such as this one from a psychology research group:
http://phoenixpsychologylab.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/phoenix1.jpg
Verdict: "stolen" is quite a stretch!
Go into an image editor (heck, paint will work). Resize the two images so that they're at the same scale. Now make one transparent and place it over the other. You can see that they are, actually, the same image.
The tattoo is offered as a free download, so that might protect Paizo, but it's certainly the same artwork, tweaked for Paizo's needs.
The same is true for the book and the bag. I can't get to the scales from here, so I'm not sure on that one.
I made no claim of legal issues stemming from use of the image, as I expect it isn't copyrighted in any way and free to use. However, I did in my original post and continue to express my disapointment in Paizo for cheaping out on the faction symbols in such a way.
They have artists on staff they could have used to design original artwork for the emblems, yet they apprently chose not to use them. Or if they DID use artists to design original artwork, then they need to closely look at the artist chosen, because original they are not.
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If your only issue with the new Factions is 'the emblems aren't as good as the last lot' then I think Paizo have done a pretty good job. This just seems nitpicky to me. I barely pay attention to the faction logos, even when they are at the side of someones name. I'd rather have good quality, well rounded factions than worry about how original an emblem of a phoenix is, especially given how commonly phoenix artwork is. I don't imagine it's an easy area to be original in.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I made no claim of legal issues stemming from use of the image, as I expect it isn't copyrighted in any way and free to use. However, I did in my original post and continue to express my disapointment in Paizo for cheaping out on the faction symbols in such a way.
They have artists on staff they could have used to design original artwork for the emblems, yet they apprently chose not to use them. Or if they DID use artists to design original artwork, then they need to closely look at the artist chosen, because original they are not.
Actually, "Stolen" is a legal claim.
If you wanted to say Paizo used Stock Art for the logos, that would be a claim of cheaping out.
Saying Paizo stole the art is an accusation of a crime.
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It would not be theft ... but it could very well be copyright infringement. Unless, of course, they have permission to use the artwork, in which case, it is all a moot point. And I can't see Paizo erring on the issue of copyright.
That said, I think they could have gotten MUCH better images for the new organizations. The styles for the new badges clash dramatically with the styles of the Grand Lodge and Silver Crusade.
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To be fair, Paizo should track down the original artist of that stock art and give them 100% of the profits of the Guide to Organized Play 6.0 PDF sales.
I agree with you 1000%. Actually, in a true act of contrition, they should give the artist double the profits for the guide.
Verdict: "stolen" is quite a stretch!Go into an image editor (heck, paint will work). Resize the two images so that they're at the same scale. Now make one transparent and place it over the other. You can see that they are, actually, the same image.
The tattoo is offered as a free download, so that might protect Paizo, but it's certainly the same artwork, tweaked for Paizo's needs.
The same is true for the book and the bag. I can't get to the scales from here, so I'm not sure on that one.
A simple Google search showed a ton of similar images. Provenance on the image of the phoenix with its wings raised tips touching in a circle is kinda hazy - as long as people have been writing myths they have drawn the phoenix.
I guarantee the images from ancient Egypt are older than any tattoo...
That is all totally true... but not really related to my post's point of "The tattoo and the faction logo are actually the same image." I didn't say they were close. I said that if you made one transparent and laid it over the other, it's the same image (with some lines colored in).
Heck, it's possible that the person that Paizo hired for that logo is the same person that made the flash in that first link. They could have just reused their own art...
Wow, way to give Paizo the benefit of the doubt.
Obviously they must be criminals, amirite!?!
Funny thing is...apparently that phoenix is not the tattoo site's originally it's a spray stencil.
Edit
I should say they got it from another site...where it originally came from is well...anyone's guess. Me personally I'm thinking grey aliens.
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Not sure what to think here. I did feel that some of the images used were familiar. With some of the links here, it's become clear that Paizo copied and then minimally tweaked some common images found on the internet.
As to whether or not they stole them in any legal sense of the word, I highly doubt that. Paizo's lawyers probably would have nixed the art before this published. Whether or not they "stole" the images morally is entirely up for debate.
I imagine it really comes down to one basic question for each of us individually: Is Paizo's image copying so egregious to you that you won't be buying their products any longer? Because that's honestly the best way to vote on things like this that matter to you -- with your wallet.
While this is a bit disappointing, I don't feel it's really enough for me to walk away.
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@twilsemail
You are missing the point! the artwork you are talking about has been; drawn, carved, printed, painted and ended up in a tattoo book in some place in America.
Unless that tattoo book is from 3,100 BC (Ancient Egypt) the original owner of the artwork was dead 3,100 years before Christ was born...
I guess you're right. I'm missing something. Do you have some source showing where this specific image is from five millennia ago? Not the concept of a phoenix. Not the idea of an awesome image of a phoenix with its wings extended upwards. This specific image.
I actually usually get disgruntled when someone snips "Citation needed" in general conversation and I recognize I'm doing that here.
Again, not "something similar." This exact image.
Note: I'm not arguing that Paizo / PFS "stole" this image. I've no idea what happened behind closed doors and who was given money or rights to a thing. I'm just stating that these are the same image, though one was modified slightly. Paizo presumably has a legal team that keeps them up to date on what is and what is not OK.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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I'm surprised, after all these years, that nobody ever said anything about how the Chelaxian symbol is the exact same as the symbol for the KKK/white power. Kinda disturbing they never caught this.T-shirt discussion
D'oh! I shoulda looked there first. Thanks.
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Since that's going to be a negative number, you're saying that Paizo should be billing the creator of the original image? :)"Profits" is to "revenue" as "bonus" is to "modifier".
No.
[pedantic accountant mode]
"Profits" is to "Revenue" as "Bonus" is to "Ability Score"
or
"Profits" is to "Results" as "Bonus" is to "Modifier"
[/pedantic accountant mode]
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Since that's going to be a negative number, you're saying that Paizo should be billing the creator of the original image? :)"Profits" is to "revenue" as "bonus" is to "modifier".No.
[pedantic accountant mode]
"Profits" is to "Revenue" as "Bonus" is to "Ability Score"
or
"Profits" is to "Results" as "Bonus" is to "Modifier"
[/pedantic accountant mode]
To be fair I'm not sure people were implying the accounting definition of profit, and were actually using the everyday basic dictionary definition of the word which does require "a financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something."
Of course I've always assumed that the reason why people use net, gross, optimum before profit when discussing accounting was so that people didn't confuse it with the layman's definition.
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I hope they go back to the drawing board on the new faction logos. None of them have the flair of the last few generations of faction emblems.
I have to sadly agree. They seem kinda weirdly simplified or overly literal in some cases like the exchange's.
I do hope they can be updated with more compelling artworks.